I know this place can be too judgemental at times.
Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)
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Because, as I said a few times, they've already fecked themselves with a fair amount of leave voters with the refendum pledge.
And re: the polls, yeah that was my point. All this percentage nonsense gets us nowhere and it's about time we all got that into our skulls.
Now since I answered you, you do me the courtesy of answering me. If everything they are doing has led them to the point of actually fighting the libs, why should they continue doing the same and noy actually learn? What, exactly, do they have to lose here?
He says, judging us all.
He's not a good campaigner though, not in my eyes anyway. And I'm exactly the kind of voter Labour should be keeping. I don't believe a lot of the stuff he says, and he is incredibly good at being neutral on important issues.
Now this doesn't change what Labour stand for and the fact their ideals largely align with mine, but it does make me question where they are going and how the hell they are going to get back in power.
And constant claims that people are always led by papers or detractors (not aiming this at you btw), doesn't help.
Its like here.
yes. Trump is bad. But what are you going to do?
I believe if people stop to think, they will vote for the party that's going to help them.
Mind you Brexit is huge and may just trump, excuse the pun all other issues.
Reality though is no one is going to get a clear majority.
It will be shit show.
Go and see how KM is being put to the sword on the brexit page for having a different opinion than the rest of us.
KM? The guy who does the boring cricket feuds?
Think you've already been given similar answers but from what i understand it's two fold, firstly for a Labour majority they can only get it through playing for leave votes and secondly for a remain win overall Labour need to win the north whilst the SNP take Scotland and the Lib Dems South.
I'm certainly not comfortable with it and never have been I just don't get into a froth unlike some because i don't believe going remain is some guaranteed solution. I think for remain overall Labour getting some leave votes is important.
It would certainly be an easier path to just go with the flow and go remain.
Yeah.
Votes. If Labour lurch towards either side, there is a benefit, but also a trade-off. As things stand they have moved towards Remain but not explicitly so. This will lose them some Leave voters, but the hope is that it will not be a great loss and that it is outweighed by its ability to stymie the loss of Remain voters turning towards the Lib Dems. I would argue that the Lib Dems have occupied that "ultra-Remain" space now and it is too late for Labour to challenge them there even if they wanted to. I genuinely believe that as things stand a second referendum with a neutral official position going into the next election may well prove to be their best option.
Let's be honest, Brexit is an inordinately difficult problem for Labour, and we're all lying if we claim to know for certain what is best for them electorally. That's why it annoys me when there is so much clamour for them to become pro-Remain, as if that is a magic solution. It's like the people calling for a "centrist" figure over Corbyn, as if that suddenly guarantees a majority. If there was clear evidence that Labour becoming pro-Remain would win them more seats, I'm sure the Labour leadership would adopt it unhesitatingly, in spite of Corbyn's own Euro-scepticism.
He has two posts in the thread and they were nearly two years ago.
Jesus, the mods on here really need to sort out the consistent terrible changing of thread titles for this thread. Seriously concerning time for UK politics and this is the level of conversation being encouraged?
It's a fecking joke. A bad one at that.
It's a fecking joke. A bad one at that.
Wrong name K13 not KM.
K13 my mistake.
I think it's more down to them not having a clear position, them not having a position makes them very weak opposition when it comes to them having some conviction when debating the key topics.
Why is their position not clear ?
Its another referendum with Remain vs a Labour Leave Deal and the Labour government will stay neutral(Labour MP will be allowed to campaign for leave or remain).
I should point out, and it's my bad for getting involved and not making it clear, that it's not just specifically Corbyn I have a problem with, it's the whole party. For years I feel they have let us down by not providing a strong opposition to the Torys, especially how weak they are right now.
Maybe I'm wrong in being like this, but I don't think going on just what they apparantly stand for is enough. I think they all lie and make promises they can't keep. What gets me is that the party for the people can't seem to even get that bit right, especially now with Corbyn, as instead of focusing on what they can do in terms or realistic progress, it's shit they can't and won't really do. Basically thay are playing the same game as everyone else, and they are losing it.
So this is why I question why people are so okay with them just doing the same old shit? It's not frothing at the mouth, it's not reading papers and believing hatchet jobs and all that, it's looking at the facts and wondering why people just don't seem to want to see the failures and expect them to do something about them?
Because the fact is they keep losing. They aren't close to power. And here we are getting the same old story. At what point is it worth at least examining real actual change that might get them back in power?
Voting to stay neutral is exactly that. It's Corbyn and Labour all over. And it doesn't work. That bothers me, and although it's only my opinion, I feel it should bother us all.
It is a bad joke, though.
I don't share the view about 'serious times' but honestly whoever gave us this title was forcing it. I expect better going forward.
A neutral position isn't clear, it's a pretty binary position on this subject & the neutral position doesn't work for voters (they see it as a cop out). Voters like certainty, and given that it hasn't resonated in the last couple of elections, it would suggest that the neutral position means they don't have a strong enough idea on what policy to go forward with.
Another referendum will bring us the same result sadly, a pointless waste of time.
Wait a minute - So there's a referendum with just these two choices and as the Labour Leave Deal is a figment of Corbyn's imagination - yes Remain have won - vote Labour! vote Labour!
Well the position is clear, but I know what you mean. The point is there is no position they can adopt that is immune from criticism. If they become pro-Remain, they abandon their Leave voters and Leave constituencies. They obviously cannot be a Brexit party. So it's a tough pathway they have to walk, with obstacles either side.
You saying it isn't clear doesn't make it true. You can disagree with it etc but its a clear and understandably position. As for it being a binary position, again only if you chose it to be.
I'm not sure how you can argue voters like certainty, the past 3 years suggest otherwise. Also last couple of elections ? We've had one general election with resulted in a tory/dup government and one EU election which only 37& of the voting public took part in.
The sign of a great leader is making great decisions, this is where Corbyn falls down with his sit on the fence approach and why he has very slim chances of winning any election or majority.
Isn't it always a tough path as the shadow party looking to get in and make real change?
But there is no clear evidence that adopting a pro-Remain stance is a "great decision".
But there is clear evidence of making no decision is not a "great decision".
Well of course, it's my opinion. However the fact that he has no chance of winning an election would suggest that the majority of voters have the same interpretation. Having no clear policy or opinion makes him a weak leader, which in order to gain a majority is a one way ticket to failing.
Certainty in policy - i.e. they know what someone is standing for, neutral on the most important topic for the last 3 years has risk to be perceived as a bit of a cop out. Eg. he doesn't know what he's doing.
Maybe not then.
Making no decision is worse. If he's leading a true opposition party then he would have a position. It's a sign of the times when the Lib Dem's look more credible with a clear position and policies to support that. You may not agree with it, but they have a plan.
Such as? And I would dispute the notion that it is 'no decision', because he is offering a second referendum which is the same policy as the other Remain parties, and Labour MPs are free to campaign for what they want. Wilson's similar approach of 'no decision' as you phrase it seemed to work alright for him.
You got a response every bit as worthwhile as the post you made that elicited it.
And if Labour only had 15 or so seats in the HoC, I'm sure their Brexit policy would look a hell of a lot different too.
Labour have a plan its that you just disagree with it. Which fine whatever but that different than saying Labour have nothing.
Also the Lib Dems are campaigning for a people vote. The revoke stuff(Which will far more unlikely to happen than a Labour government)was to get headlines and energise their base.
In your opinion maybe. Lots of Labour constituencies voted leave.
Nothing in my post was incorrect - just posing a question. Sadly people believe Corbyn's proposal is remotely possible.
Such as losing an election. And more than likely losing the next one.
To this current Tory party.
I mean, I'm not sure what more evidence you need that their fence sitting isn't working and I'm sure you'll try to dress it up and make excuses, but to me that's part of the problem. They keep doing the same old thing, well not doing anything really, they aren't getting in. And people just accept it thinking it will all miraculously change and Labour will find themselves back in power.
Corbyn in his conference speech today called for Johnson to resign. But he won't vote against him in a vote of no confidence. And the Labour position isn't unclear at all. Yeah, right.
You were just being a sarcastic child.