Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

Nuts said:
It’s not on his brain 24/7. It’s not being discussed because he’s putting it on the agenda, it’s being discussed because his enemies in the Labour Party and the right wing press are determined to keep us all talking about it.
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24/7 is obvious hyperbole, but it's far from a ridiculous point to suggest that Corbyn has been incredibly vocal and outspoken on Israel and Palestine for decades and that ignorance can hardly be an excuse.

And if Corbyn was genuinely as ignorant about a topic that he's spent a lot of his career talking about as he would need to be what does that say about the rest of his political platform?
 
NinjaFletch said:
24/7 is obvious hyperbole, but it's far from a ridiculous point to suggest that Corbyn has been incredibly vocal and outspoken on Israel and Palestine for decades and that ignorance can hardly be an excuse.

And if Corbyn was genuinely as ignorant about a topic that he's spent a lot of his career talking about as he would need to be what does that say about the rest of his political platform?
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How ‘incredibly vocal’ has he been about Palestine since becoming leader? He’s barely mentioned it. We’re talking about a photo that’s several years old. You keep asking how intelligent he is - do you think he’s going to do anything incendiary on this topic now?

He has, laudably in my opinion, made a career of being determined to speak to both sides in disputes, trying in particular to hear the less heard side very often. That’s now being used against him, unfairly, but it’s odd that you choose to use it as a way to retrospectively question his intelligence.

If you’re applying hindsight as a means to measure his judgement there are many examples which I’d say justify his judgement pretty emphatically.
 
Nuts said:
How ‘incredibly vocal’ has he been about Palestine since becoming leader? He’s barely mentioned it. We’re talking about a photo that’s several years old. You keep asking how intelligent he is - do you think he’s going to do anything incendiary on this topic now?

He has, laudably in my opinion, made a career of being determined to speak to both sides in disputes, trying in particular to hear the less heard side very often. That’s now being used against him, unfairly, but it’s odd that you choose to use it as a way to retrospectively question his intelligence.

If you’re applying hindsight as a means to measure his judgement there are many examples which I’d say justify his judgement pretty emphatically.
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He isn't reborn when he becomes Labour leader, and what he says and thought are relevant. In exactly the same way we rightly criticise Theresa May's disastrous spell in charge of the Home Office and didn't wipe the slate clean when she became leader. Could you imagine if in the early days of her job as PM a Tory voter on here had tried to make the argument along the lines of: 'well she hasn't shown a nasty authoritarian streak and attempted to abolish human rights because someone had a cat since she became PM so we can say that's in the past'? They'd have been laughed at and rightly so.

Besides, if the argument is that he's intelligent enough not to hang around with anti-semites, be in anti-semitic facebook groups, laud terrorists, or like anti-semitic art now that he's leader, then the argument explodes the favoured defence of him as somehow an extraordinarily unlucky man who repeatedly happened, through no fault of his own, to be repeatedly drawn in to these controversies. It suggests rather that he did know what the people he was associating with were doing and saying and thought that no impediment to being associated with them.

And for all the talk of Corbyn 'being determined to speak to both sides' I can't seem to recall much or any evidence of him speaking alongside controversial speakers from the other side of this debate.
 
NinjaFletch said:
He isn't reborn when he becomes Labour leader, and what he says and thought are relevant. In exactly the same way we rightly criticise Theresa May's disastrous spell in charge of the Home Office and didn't wipe the slate clean when she became leader. Could you imagine if in the early days of her job as PM a Tory voter on here had tried to make the argument along the lines of: 'well she hasn't shown a nasty authoritarian streak and attempted to abolish human rights because someone had a cat since she became PM so we can say that's in the past'? They'd have been laughed at and rightly so.

Besides, if the argument is that he's intelligent enough not to hang around with anti-semites, be in anti-semitic facebook groups, laud terrorists, or like anti-semitic art now that he's leader, then the argument explodes the favoured defence of him as somehow an extraordinarily unlucky man who repeatedly happened, through no fault of his own, to be repeatedly drawn in to these controversies. It suggests rather that he did know what the people he was associating with were doing and saying and thought that no impediment to being associated with them.

And for all the talk of Corbyn 'being determined to speak to both sides' I can't seem to recall much or any evidence of him speaking alongside controversial speakers from the other side of this debate.
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What’s your endgame? Do you think Jeremy Corbyn is racist, a terrorist sympathiser?

There’s so much wrong with our society that could be addressed by a socially aware and compassionate Labour Party and you’re prepared to just destroy those hopes over tittle tattle and possible Facebook likes?!
 
Classical Mechanic said:
He's the UK version of Donald Trump. He's bound by his racist base and is unimpeachable in the eyes of his supporters. He's going nowhere.

He won't be turning any screws either because he doesn't want to be in power with the poison chalice of Brexit in his hand. He'll continue to be quiet as a mouse hoping to seize power sometime after March next year when its all gone tits up.
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Care to elaborate?
 
Nuts said:
What’s your endgame? Do you think Jeremy Corbyn is racist, a terrorist sympathiser?

There’s so much wrong with our society that could be addressed by a socially aware and compassionate Labour Party and you’re prepared to just destroy those hopes over tittle tattle and possible Facebook likes?!
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I don't really have an end game. I'm simply interested in discussing the merits of the accusations against Corbyn and the defence for him.

My 'end game', if I have one, is not to excuse Corbyn for a whole list of things that we would absolutely crucify figures on the right for as if the values we say we hold dear are to be meaninglessly traded away in pursuit of the supposed greater good.

As I've said before, I'm increasingly unconvinced of Corbyn's suitability as leader of the Labour party most of the posters who regularly post in here (myself included) wanted and continue to want, and am worried by some of the mental gymnastics being employed to defend Corbyn against an unfortunately increasingly convincing case for the prosecution.
 
Honest John said:
The Tories at the last GE ran the most diabolically rubbish campaign that I have ever seen in 40 years of voting. It saw a 20 point lead whittled away to barely nothing. There was nothing populist or radical about their manifesto they went on the 'strong and stable' ticket. Well, apart from the 'dementia tax' which was even more of a disaster. And even with Labour promising the earth and all it's riches to everyone in creation they couldn't oust them.

The majority of people vote safe.
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The Tories were promising to implement a hard Brexit, which is just about as far as you can possibly imagine from a 'safe' vote.

I'd have gotten this stuff a few years ago but anyone who's observing the world at the moment should be able to see people are increasingly abandoning typically 'safe' options. Or are at least to a certain extent considering outside ones.
 
Much as there's been plenty of nonsense printed about Corbyn in the past, if he's genuinely done this then I feel like mentioning how it's the Daily Mail or talking about what Boris has done don't work well as deflections. Should be held accountable like anyone else.
 
Cheesy said:
The Tories were promising to implement a hard Brexit, which is just about as far as you can possibly imagine from a 'safe' vote.

I'd have gotten this stuff a few years ago but anyone who's observing the world at the moment should be able to see people are increasingly abandoning typically 'safe' options. Or are at least to a certain extent considering outside ones.
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There's never a guaranteed safe vote. Only that which the silent majority perceive. Last election they were faced with get poor or get poorer still.
 
Honest John said:
There's never a guaranteed safe vote. Only that which the silent majority perceive. Last election they were faced with get poor or get poorer still.
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But it still contradicts your idea that people would vote safe. The country as a whole didn't vote safe with Brexit - they instead opted for one of the biggest changes we'll have seen in British society since the war.
 
Honest John said:
It looks from that as though Brexit wasn't an option for Labour voters who were polled.
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The majority of Labour supporters voted Remain so it wouldn't have been the main reason anyway. If anything that would've put some off.
 
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How do you deliver a left wing govt that would presumably want to invest heavily in public services if you drive the economy off a cliff by pushing ahead with a 'let's just assume Nadine Dorries is right' Brexit?
 
Outside of his associations there isn't anything radical about Corbyn. He champions causes that make him an outlier but bringing train companies back under state control and a moderate increase on what the Tory party are planning on NHS spending isn't the radical, reformative, left wing agenda people seem to think it is or want it to be.

What I've found frustrating and surprising is the lack of ideas that this 'revoluion' has spawned. It's been treading water. The illusion of fresh and exciting policy ideas but other than accusing everyone of conspiracy...where are they? More money for schools isn't 'neoliberal' when Blair does it but a socialist dawn when Corbyn does.
 
Oscie said:
Outside of his associations there isn't anything radical about Corbyn. He champions causes that make him an outlier but bringing train companies back under state control and a moderate increase on what the Tory party are planning on NHS spending isn't the radical, reformative, left wing agenda people seem to think it is or want it to be.

What I've found frustrating and surprising is the lack of ideas that this 'revoluion' has spawned. It's been treading water. The illusion of fresh and exciting policy ideas but other than accusing everyone of conspiracy...where are they? More money for schools isn't 'neoliberal' when Blair does it but a socialist dawn when Corbyn does.
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Most people aren't really arguing that he's particularly radical though. I'd argue most sensible people just agree he's more left-wing than what the country's had for a while, and that if you align on the left-side of the spectrum then that's a good thing. If you were wanting to point out areas where he differs greatly from the mainstream though, could argue his outspoken criticism of our association with the Saudi government and current atrocities in Yemen is an example of that.

Blair may have upped public spending (eventually) but he was also in power when PFI became increasingly more prevalent with the NHS, and also oversaw the continuing deregulation of the financial sector. A lot of the economic work was done by Brown anyway due to his power as chancellor, and he always had more socialist-leaning credentials than Blair.
 
berbatrick said:
He said the far left Labour policies would turn off voters. That is very obviously not the case.
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You thought it noteworthy enough to post a link showing that in 2017 Labour voters voted for the Labour manifesto, as opposed to Conservative voters who voted for Brexit.

When you know Brexit was endorsed in that very manifesto then the distinction becomes a little less sharp, don't you think?
 
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Who runs the Labour Press Team, Milne?
 
What I don't get is why would the Mail and the Tories want rid of Corbyn? Surely any center left Labour party wins the next General Election. I think Blair would have won another. I think Dave Milliband would have beaten Cameron, as opposed to the more left Ed Milliband. Corbyn gives the Tories their best shot at retaining power.
 
redmeister said:
What I don't get is why would the Mail and the Tories want rid of Corbyn? Surely any center left Labour party wins the next General Election. I think Blair would have won another. I think Dave Milliband would have beaten Cameron, as opposed to the more left Ed Milliband. Corbyn gives the Tories their best shot at retaining power.
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Probably not in the current climate - with current economic inequality etc we're seeing people generally driven more to extremes on either side. I reckon a fairly charismatic individual could maybe overcome that but only if they've got a proper message that extends beyond merely wanting power for the sake of it, which is a trap most of the Labour centrists have fallen into in recent years. As it stands, Labour's moderate wing doesn't really have anyone particularly remarkable or impressive. Starmer I'd argue is maybe the best of that lot and would perhaps be a semi-okay bridge between both wings of the party since he seems to get on alright with Corbyn but other than that I don't see anyone else.
 
So.. he WAS there... which shows at best incredibly poor judgement, at worst, terrorist sympathies. Then he lied about it.

He has to go.
 
nickm said:
So.. he WAS there... which shows at best incredibly poor judgement, at worst, terrorist sympathies. Then he lied about it.

He has to go.
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To judge by the photos of the event, he's still lying.

He should have just come out and said the only purpose of the trip was to honour the 1985 dead, but that he subsequently got railroaded into an uncomfortable situation that he felt he couldn't get out of. That's about the most generous, somewhat plausible explanation I can think of - but it's belied by the doubling down. His best move now would be to fire Milne and try to blame all this on his incompetence.
 
https://web.archive.org/web/2015092...cs-massacre-israelis-weren-t-the-only-victims

When the Israeli government refused to consider an exchange, the German police, with the Mossad at hand, were pushed into an ill-planned rescue attempt in which some of the hostages (no one knows how many) were killed accidentally by the attackers, and a German policeman was also killed.
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Corbyn was the chairman of STWC at the time. I know, that he isn't responsible for individual articles that got published/linked. Still its not hard to see why someone with his convictions might not have a big problem with commemorating those people.
 
hobbers said:
As disinterested as I generally am in whatever flavour of jam Corbyn is making this week, the likening of his blindly devoted worshippers to Trump's base is as funny as it is accurate. And really seems to strike a nerve.
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Got hounded out of the thread the last time I compared the situation to Trump.
Personally don't think he needs to or should leave just yet. Let brexit play out first.
 
Sooner he goes and Labour get a leader with the balls to say "This is bollocks" about Brexit, the better. If it happens because he lied about putting flowers on the grave of a terrorist then so be it.
 
Oscie said:
Sooner he goes and Labour get a leader with the balls to say "This is bollocks" about Brexit, the better. If it happens because he lied about putting flowers on the grave of a terrorist then so be it.
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I like the idea of a Labour leader being stronger against Brexit but it's no guarantee of improved fortunes for the party.
 
I've just had it up to my bollocks with the Labour party being in the permanent state of 'might as well not exist', all whist fanatics pretend that it's some kind of radical force in British politics. Nobody alive has any memory of the Labour party being less relevant to the political narrative and biggest issues of the day than it is now and I'm fed up with it.

I'm fed up with excuses, fed up of the govt getting away with everything, fed up with the party having zero media handling ability. And more's the point my piss has been boiled so much by those who have realised their only chance of making this shower of absolute shite look any good is by rubbishing what was a fecking good Labour government of 1997-2010 in the hope that they'll succeed and make Corbyn look fractionally less shit than he is, that I think it's actually all evaporated now. And that's without even getting started on Brexit.

So yeah, he can feck right off.
 
Long-term I imagine the best option for the party will be someone on the left who's a lot younger than Corbyn and who thus doesn't have the same baggage when it comes to issues like Palestine, the IRA etc. Doesn't really seem to be anyone in that bracket right now though - most of the renowned lefties are all older.
 
Corbyn said he was present at the wreath laying ceremony but not involved. Was the picture of him actually holding the wreath from a different ceremony or something?
 
711 said:
You thought it noteworthy enough to post a link showing that in 2017 Labour voters voted for the Labour manifesto, as opposed to Conservative voters who voted for Brexit.

When you know Brexit was endorsed in that very manifesto then the distinction becomes a little less sharp, don't you think?
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I don't think, because it's irrelevant to the context of the argument-labours radical policies didn't turn off voters.
Cheesy said:
Long-term I imagine the best option for the party will be someone on the left who's a lot younger than Corbyn and who thus doesn't have the same baggage when it comes to issues like Palestine, the IRA etc. Doesn't really seem to be anyone in that bracket right now though - most of the renowned lefties are all older.
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Same problem with Bernie
 
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