Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)

Mciahel, thank you for being more respectful in your last post than the ones before it.

I'm 'moaning' due to the sheer amount of politically Left sentiments being preached at entertainment events. In and of itself, it isn't wrong as everyone has the right to express themselves. However, it's gone beyond that now into one sided diatribes from many entertainers; some of whom have an extremely poor moral history yet have the gall to condemn Tories.

My issue really isn't with Corbyn or the Glastonbury crowd but the pervasive culture that seems to turn every live entertainment show into brazen political propaganda rather than purely entertainment.
 
hobbers said:
All Corbyn did was follow the Clegg model and bribe a load of mostly middle class kids to vote for him to pay for their arty farty degrees. Very successful model when you don't have to deliver on any promises, just like the rest of Labours manifesto.

As for the left's vicegrip on pop culture, it would be fine were it not for the swathes of dimwitted celebrity drones carrying on like militants in the middle of a morale crusade, outwith their coke and hooker sessions of course. Nothing more detestable than champagne socialism.
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Nothing wrong coke and hookers.

It is easy to think of more detestable things than champaign socialism though, i.e your propensity for racism.
 
SparkedIntoLife said:
Mciahel, thank you for being more respectful in your last post than the ones before it.

I'm 'moaning' due to the sheer amount of politically Left sentiments being preached at entertainment events. In and of itself, it isn't wrong as everyone has the right to express themselves. However, it's gone beyond that now into one sided diatribes from many entertainers; some of whom have an extremely poor moral history yet have the gall to condemn Tories.

My issue really isn't with Corbyn or the Glastonbury crowd but the pervasive culture that seems to turn every live entertainment show into brazen political propaganda rather than purely entertainment.
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Apart from Glastonbury which other live entertainment shows that aren't already politically natured do you think this is occurring/happened? To the extent of being not only political but brazen propoganda?

You've just thrown the words every and pervasive about so im thinking a lot yet im struggling to recall many myself.
 
Well I can certainly see why Sparkedintolife stopped being a hippy.

hobbers said:
All Corbyn did was follow the Clegg model and bribe a load of mostly middle class kids to vote for him to pay for their arty farty degrees. Very successful model when you don't have to deliver on any promises, just like the rest of Labours manifesto.

As for the left's vicegrip on pop culture, it would be fine were it not for the swathes of dimwitted celebrity drones carrying on like militants in the middle of a morale crusade, outwith their coke and hooker sessions of course. Nothing more detestable than champagne socialism.
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As opposed to the coke and hooker sessions our old chancellor (and current Evening Standard editor) and his mates are known to be fond of? Also I don't get why socialists who live in capitalist societies are expected to live like monks.
 
SparkedIntoLife said:
Silva, I've made it clear that I think some liberal ideas have been very positive over history. I agree that those improvements have benefited the arts. Yet there is a danger of things going to the other side of an oppressive coin, and that's what I'm getting at.
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That's what you've changed the story to, what you were getting at is that Corbyn needs to feck off and musicians should stop it with the lefty politics. You can have those opinions if you want and espouse them, but don't be euphemistic about it.

As regards to Richard Murdoch, I would guess he doesn't mandate anything creatively besides what makes him money. It's the writers, casting agents etc who would do that.
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That's the point. There isn't a conspiracy shutting right wing artistic voices down. The only people who can mandate particular viewpoints in entertainment would rather make a buck or two.
 
Shamwow said:
As opposed to the coke and hooker sessions our old chancellor (and current Evening Standard editor) and his mates are known to be fond of? Also I don't get why socialists who live in capitalist societies are expected to live like monks.
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Nah, you've got it wrong. Boris Johnson threatening journalists, Trump sexually assaulting women, or George Osborne going on coke binges is just them showing character; lefties doing anything other than attending church four times a week are destructive liberals who demonstrate everything that's wrong with society. Or something.
 
Cheesy said:
Nah, you've got it wrong. Boris Johnson threatening journalists, Trump sexually assaulting women, or George Osborne going on coke binges is just them showing character; lefties doing anything other than attending church four times a week are destructive liberals who demonstrate everything that's wrong with society. Or something.
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Let's not forget about the Pig!
 
SparkedIntoLife said:
FlyingHigh - I appreciate your more cordial manner as opposed to some others. Your points are a whole other topic entirely. I have expressed admiration for some of the aspects of liberal politics. I'm far from a 100% conservative. Politics is more nuanced than that. I personally find the far left's attitudes to some things morally abhorrent and the same for the right. That's what I'm saying about group think. I see a lot of people unable to acknowledge any humanity or capacity for reason on the other side of the political fence. Sadly, many on Red Cafe tend to demonise Conservatives and Leave voters etc. without any empathetic acknowledgement of their motivations, context etc.

You seem to be claiming total moral authority for the left/Labour etc. They've made lots of mistakes, as have the Tories.

I'm a pretty selfish person but I give a lot of money to charity, regularly help the poor and have supported lots of people in their rehabiltation from addictions, mental health issues etc. Could I do more? Absolutely. I can be an asshole at times. We all can. I know some incredibly moral and caring people who vote Tory. I know some terrible Labour voters. And vice versa. Neither side holds all the good or has people. We have to all make a decision with our consciences based on many factors.

I would love for a lot of what Corbyn pledges to be made reality. Of course I want better funding for our public services. Yet I don't believe it's realistic or financially responsible in the way Labour envision it.
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I talk on a fairly regular basis with a few conservatives. My experience has shown that we generally aren't too far away from each other on most topics. Like you, the reason some of them vote Conservative seems to be the lack of faith in Labour when it comes to running the economy. While my points may seem to be another topic, I was attempting to debunk the myth that the right wing policies which the Conservatives have made the norm in the country, are in any way to be seen as positive for our economy. Whilst also trying to show how the ethos of a Corbyn left wing government could work if we can just drop this business first philosophy. Obviously I failed to reach you, as you didn't address those issues, and still feel that the Corbyn financial plan can't work. I'd love to hear why investing in education and healthcare can't be done, whereas investing in big business by way of subsidies and tax breaks is guaranteed to work this time. Because you must be pretty sure if you are prepared to vote against the things you like. Honestly, it is difficult to know why people who think of themselves as fair minded, vote for them. Is the only reason really the fear of a financial crash?

I don't claim total moral authority for the left. But pretty damn close. Some people will take any idea far too far and as you said, good and bad on both sides. But as a whole, yes I'd much rather the world was a vision of the left than the right. I absolutely don't claim moral authority for the Labour party. Corbyn though is tapping into that latent feeling that the country, and indeed the world, needs to be fairer and that it really is achieveable.
 
horsechoker said:
The problem with May is she doesn't have a chant. You need a chant!
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She's a daughter a vicar's daughter who came up short of seats.

She's a daughter a vicar's daughter who likes to run through wheat.

Theresa May, Theresa May, Theresa May Theresa May oooh oooh Theresa May.

Sorry, it is late though.
 
Theresa's good
Theresa's good
She's Ebenezer...May
 
Labour are red,
The Conservatives are blue,
The Greens are Green,
The Lib Dems are a kind of weird, orangey colour but no one knows for definite,
We're shit at rhyming,
Being poor is probably your own fault
 
I wonder. Would you say this (tweet below (read thread)) is the expression of a hard-left person? Because this is the epitome of a Momentum member (from my experience), whether or not she is actually signed-up. If she isn't and she went along purely out of curiosity, she'd find she had a lot in common. But hey! It's obvious, isn't it? Her point, I mean...

 
They just cant help shooting themselves in the foot.

You'd have expected them to have got on board for longer with the "unity", whilst the Tories were in chaos.
 
Here's what Chuka said previously on the single market.

He said: “If continuation of the free movement we have is the price of Single Market membership then clearly we couldn’t remain in the Single Market, but we are not at that point yet.”
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Fergies Gum said:
Here's what Chuka said previously on the single market.
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What an utterly laughable hill some have chosen to die on. An amendment that not only contradicts the manifesto they ran on earlier in the month, but makes swathes of it impossible to implement, put forward by a self serving wank. Actually, when I put it that way, it makes sense for some of them.
 
Link to the story?

Well done to Stella Creasy today as well. Excellent win for a number of reasons.
 
Read it now. Seems a silly time to create internal conflict from Chuka but I'm glad someone is still flying the single market flag.

Though I quite like the party's Brexit approach today - use the government's Brexit promises against them, hold them to a certain standard. Hope it continues.
 
ThierryHenry said:
Read it now. Seems a silly time to create internal conflict from Chuka but I'm glad someone is still flying the single market flag.

Though I quite like the party's Brexit approach today - use the government's Brexit promises against them, hold them to a certain standard. Hope it continues.
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There will never be a silly time for these cnuts, we had so called Labour MPs saying they wouldn't back Corbyn as Prime Minister during an election. Chuka is having a little cry that he didn't make Corbyn's shadow cabinet and dragging a few deluded souls down with him.
 
Very silly. Not sure how he thinks this is good for him. Any sensible 'centrist' would be either offering moderate support for the leadership or keeping their trap shut - whichever they are more comfortable with. It seems political suicide to be trying to take on that battle, at this point.
 
ThierryHenry said:
Read it now. Seems a silly time to create internal conflict from Chuka but I'm glad someone is still flying the single market flag.

Though I quite like the party's Brexit approach today - use the government's Brexit promises against them, hold them to a certain standard. Hope it continues.
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He's just laying down a marker he can point to later and say 'I was the only one that fought back, I may have lost but I was right and went down fighting'.

Boris did the same thing supporting Brexit, but he unexpectedly won and didn't know what to do next.
 
I still maintain that the exuberant surprise that some of this bunch expressed - after the relative success of the election - seemed at least slightly duplicitous. The metamorphosis from cockroach to apparant Corbynista was too sudden and the praise too over egged to be entirely convincing.
 
DenisIrwin said:
I wonder. Would you say this (tweet below (read thread)) is the expression of a hard-left person? Because this is the epitome of a Momentum member (from my experience), whether or not she is actually signed-up. If she isn't and she went along purely out of curiosity, she'd find she had a lot in common. But hey! It's obvious, isn't it? Her point, I mean...

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I don't know what your point is.
I don't know how we glean her political stand point from the message. Hard left would be a reach though.
I don't know what Momentum is. (I do now, Google helped. I've been overseas)
 
Okay, so, can somebody help me? I'm feeling very confused, I'm tired from work, and maybe I've misunderstood the story - but I understand Corbyn just fired three shadow front benchers because they voted for an amendment for the UK to stay in the single market.

Now, unless, I've totally dreamed the last few months, I thought Labour wanted Britain in the single market even after we've left the EU?

Isn't that like the crux of the soft Brexit that Corbyn has been calling for.

Paging people that will probably know better: @Mciahel Goodman @Cheesy @Silva
 
17 Van der Gouw said:
Now, unless, I've totally dreamed the last few months, I thought Labour wanted Britain in the single market even after we've left the EU?
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They rebelled against the front bench. You can't do that if you're in the shadow cabinet and you're trying to give the impression of solidarity to highlight the frailty of the Conservatives' coalition with the DUP. It's not about the single market, it's that they've created breathing space for the Tories who can spin this as a chaotic opposition. They had to go.
 
Mciahel Goodman said:
They rebelled against the front bench. You can't do that if you're in the shadow cabinet and you're trying to give the impression of solidarity to highlight the frailty of the Conservatives' coalition with the DUP. It's not about the single market, it's that they've created breathing space for the Tories who can spin this as a chaotic opposition. They had to go.
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Okay, I get that, but that part I don't understand is why it wasn't Labour's front bench position to vote for the amendment in the first place?
 
17 Van der Gouw said:
Okay, I get that, but that part I don't understand is why it wasn't Labour's front bench position to vote for the amendment in the first place?
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It wouldn't pass if they did support it as they don't have a majority. Even if that were to be Labour's official position, which it isn't because Corbyn notes that controls on movement of labour aren't possible from within the single market (a deal would have to be achieved for this to take place), it would look like a defeat should they support it and get voted down. Corbyn has painted a picture of a soft Brexit, but he hasn't explicitly committed to much in terms of policy so far (aside from guarantees about EU citizens' rights to stay in the UK, and not threatening Europe with a radically low corporate tax rate).

There's also the perception of impeding the functioning of the country, or the people's will. If you table pro EU legislation whilst in opposition (pass or fail), you're going to come in for a lot of criticism and propaganda about ignoring the people's will, etc. A significant proportion of Labour's core vote (that swathe of it which is outside London, at any rate) is now firmly anti EU (it was prior to the recent GE, but that's been solidified with the UKIP vote). Not sure it would be politically expedient for them to table anything which could be spun as trying to defy the will of the country, or ignore the referendum (especially if they can't even pass it in the house).

But for a more in depth policy analysis I'd ask @Ubik to weigh in.
 
17 Van der Gouw said:
Okay, so, can somebody help me? I'm feeling very confused, I'm tired from work, and maybe I've misunderstood the story - but I understand Corbyn just fired three shadow front benchers because they voted for an amendment for the UK to stay in the single market.

Now, unless, I've totally dreamed the last few months, I thought Labour wanted Britain in the single market even after we've left the EU?

Isn't that like the crux of the soft Brexit that Corbyn has been calling for.

Paging people that will probably know better: @Mciahel Goodman @Cheesy @Silva
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Nah, Corbyn's personally on the harder Brexit side of Labour. The party is sending mixed messages so they can say "I told you so" when it all goes tits up. It's not very admirable, but hey ho.
 
Alright, cheers both. I've tried to keep abreast of how Labour wants to go about Brexit, because god knows, the Tories don't seem to want any kind of arrangement at all - but I've found myself becoming ever more confused. I remember hearing in the lead up to the EU referendum that Corbyn was historically in favour of leaving the EU as a younger man, and this was often used as a stick to beat him with when he came out in favour of remain last year. It's funny, I don't actually recall hearing him talking about the Single Market much during the election just gone, and it's hard to find many quotes on it. I guess I've just assumed he wanted to remain in the SM as that was often part of the 'soft Brexit' package that most progressives are after.

Keir Starmer, who is the Shadow Secretary of state for Exiting the EU has made some quite ambigious statements, saying he wants the Single Market option to still be on the table going into negotiations, having said only a few weeks before that both Single Market membership and free movement of citizens must come to an end after Brexit. And whilst the Conservatives are clearly making a bit of a hash of the Brexit process, I'm not entirely sure I know what Labour would do, and I'm not convinced they are either.
 
Yeah, Labour's position on this is still very muddled and confusing. Creasy got called out for it on QT. I can understand the frustration of pro-EU, pro-single market Labour MP's but at the same time defying your leader on a vote if you're in the cabinet is a no-no.
 
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