Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)
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I'm pretty sure my point isn't the same as his.
I just don't like it rammed down people's throats, via social media, the press or festivals.
The only part I agree with is that you can't have one or the other. You can't moan about the press being for one side than be happy about something like a festival being for the other. They are all playing a game and we either accept it or we don't.
I don't think there's anyway that we can control what the media or people say and if we wanted too then isn't that the point where we start heading down the wrong track as a Country? A simple way to stop these things from happening is not buy the papers or go to the events. Simple. I do think it will head that way with Newspapers at least, I can't remember the last time I bought a Paper and I don't visit any Newspaper Online sites (unless tricked by hidden urls in the transfer forum).
Ideologies evolve and express themselves differently over time and in different places. I dislike much of the basics of Liberalism (complete freedom to do whatever with moral relativism at its heart). However, as a movement it has championed the virtues of challenging oppressive authority, bringing equality to the marginalised and open mindedness.
Even today, many liberals go on about tolerance and diversity but exhibit anything but.
As for your last line, spare me. You are deeply unpleasant to anyone who disagrees with you so don't bang the drum when you can't keep the beat. I've called the behaviour on show there arrogant, not labelled every single person arrogant.
Let's use your Grand National analogy as an apparently right leaning crowd. When have you ever heard any of the jockeys we pay to watch get up and espouse conservative views? If Theresa May got up there and preached to whoops of delight, I would find that equally (if not more) cringeworthy.
I have nothing fundamentally against the Left despite disagreement (which, believe it or not, can be held in tension without personal animosity coming into it). I just dislike the shameless liberal paraphernalia in the arts constantly.
I disagree with plenty of people just fine, but you've come in here with an exceptionally stupid opinion. Displaying not only a lack of historical knowledge about the arts generally, but a lack of historical knowledge about the minor part of the arts you've specifically called out.
Such as? Liberalism is as much a tenet of conservatism these days anyway. Unless you're talking about mass readings of Das Kapital, I'm not sure what you mean.
I wouldn't care less if that happened, i'd chuckle, but nothing more than that. I have far more important things to be concerned at then getting annoyed by people cheering the political party they support or opinions they agree with.
It bothers me more that the Right Wing Media can post absolute horse shite in their newspapers and get away with it. That does annoy me.
And your point is other people are hypocritical and should be more tolerant? Good way to go about making it...
There's the obvious reason why Jeremy Corbyn would have been greeted so well at Glastonbury as Silva has said. The reason the creative/entertainment industry is so 'biased to the left' is because liberal ideals and attitudes go hand-in-hand with creativity. How many great writers, musicians and filmmakers can you name who are conservatives? It's not that they are not allowed a voice, it's just they are greatly outnumbered.
"Why are all these junior doctors going on strike over pay and working conditions? Where's the diversity of opinions?!"
And again, I'm not saying we can control it. I'm just saying I don't personally like it. I'm saying I don't like it from any side.
It won't stop, of course it won't. But it's a little bit hypocritical to me that people slag off the media for being pro conservative, but then defend heavily Corbyn doing a festival appearance. And again, I get why he did and if I was there this year (I missed it for once) I would have gone and cheered him on, but I'm not going to act like Labour are all good and the Cons are all evil, when they both play the same game and none of us lot end up ultimately winning.
After all, we all did this before in the 90's with Blair.
To be fair when you're a miserable right wing cnut, it can be hard to get the creative juices flowing.
Agreed, I guess the only difference being is that Glastonbury is once a year while Media control is every day of the year. Personally I think its a mistake for Corbyn to have done it, but I can see why he did. Hopefully this is a one off.
Many people moan about the right-wing bias in mainstream media yet, when Corbyn puts his message across through a different avenue, that's apparently wrong. Hmm.
I will say though, that the talk of Glastonbury being some big political thing is now completely untrue in this day and age.
Sure, it might have had such motivations when it started, but no one really sees it that way these days. Anyone who goes will say the same thing, no one gives a feck about political statements, the only reason they have this year is because of Corbyn and even then I guarantee it was brief
But yeah, I get why he did and maybe I even support it against the media. But I'm not going to drag myself down to the level of acting like it's somehow morally the right thing to do whilst hating the media. I'm also not going to pretend Corbyn is drastically different or will make any drastic changes if he got it. I'd love a Labour government again, but I for one don't kid myself that much would actually change or many of his policies are actually viable. It's sad, but in my opinion, very true.
Lack of knowledge about the arts? You don't know that at all. I'm an MA graduate in creative writing, a published writer and spent 5 years going to a drama school. I have actor, writer, producer friends and more. You ignorantly assume things about me based on an isolated opinion you disagree with.
I know enough about the arts to know it is predominantly left wing. I know what Glastonbury is like and its history. I used to be a hippy new ager until 5 years ago. Enlighten me, what about my knowledge of the arts is amiss? I understand the culture that enables Jeremy Corbyn to parade at a festival like a saviour. I find it sickly and that was my point.
It's an interesting question on the effect of celebrity political endorsements, but really not the place to make it.
Of all cultural events, Glastonbury really is designed for both. That's what the festival was built for, and what it still is today.
To argue that a left wing festival inviting the most prominent left wing politician in the country to speak is against freedom of speech is beyond barmy.
Your bias is showing, never mind your irritation.
(socially)Liberal values: Equality and fairness. The belief that everyone should have a fair chance in life. That descriminating against those that are different is wrong. That being born disadvantaged should not be a barrier to progress in life.
Every small victory toward that ideal(the battle is far from won, though much progress has been made in the last century) has been a fight against conservatives. The protectionists. Those that feel scared of change, maybe because they are happy with the status quo. Maybe because they benefit from the oppression of the disadvantaged. Maybe they simply don't realise the damage being done to vast communities on our planet. Maybe they are world-weary cynics, wanting to live out their lives unbothered by the woes of others.
Most leftists, I feel confident in saying, feel that helping refugees is essential, but that preventing those situations is even more important. The right wing, as a generalisation, reject the initial help overseas and frankly through their support of exploitative big business and oil wars for example(no, Blair was not a leftist), actually cause many of those problems. Then they typically object to helping refugees.
But you didn't mention refugees, which is typically the call of the left wing entertainment industry. You mentioned immigration. This is not a left wing thing! The sort of mass immigration we have seen in the last 20 years, under a mixture of governments, has been encouraged for the balance sheets and to fill a skills/labour shortage.
Short term thinking, with little recognisable planning for the consequences. The level of immigration could be reduced at any time by our government. Brexit or not. They simply need to stop most immigration from outside the EU. Or implement the rules that the EU already allows that would discourage many of those 250,000 last year. But not without hitting GDP. Before the whole brexit fiasco started Cameron understood this, he gambled that he could use the growing hostility towards the immigration levels to win elections, but actively dismantled some of the very few mechanisms in place to lessen the burden on the country that they caused. It didn't quite work out for him, and now we have a situation where we are being corralled into leaving the EU at a time when national and personal debt are at insane levels. Like I said, not a left wing thing.
Not everyone who is socially left wing, is fiscally left wing. It's an idea which is far less simple than free market capitalism, so is less understood by many. The answer from the left isn't simply give everyone more money, as much as it's painted as so. While the Conservatives are still clinging on to the idea that private businesses are better than the state for everything. The view of the left is that allowing business to put profit above all else is at the root of many social and economic problems that we face. While technology has helped boost the standard of living for many people in the world, that is no reason to not try to help those that have missed the boat. Improving education and healthcare will more than pay for itself, in the long run. As any good business knows, investing in the right areas brings great rewards. So austerity IS an idealogical choice. While it's perfectly fine for those that excel and provide something to the world to be rewarded, until we reach a point where no child goes hungry, at least, then maybe the richest can make do with just one yacht. A small one if necessary. Same goes for businesses. They can forgo paying tax by investing(not per se a bad thing) but when you have a government eager to sell off the natural and social resources of a country to those same companies, it doesn't take long to realise that there were big problems ahead when those profits stopped being reinvested.
A whole crowd at Glastonbury might not agree with everything I've written, or what Jeremy Corbyn has to say. The basic premise of peace, love, understanding and compassion should be lauded. It bloody should make a crowd cheer. The fact that these values are overtly left wing should tell you something. If I ever see a (socially)right wing gathering genuinely spreading the same message of positivity, then I'd applaud them too.
So while I do understand a wariness toward popularising politics, I see it as far less of a problem than, say, the daily mail putting negative stories about immigrants on their front page something like 23 out of the 30 days leading up to brexit(can't find link right now sorry), leaving it just a few days after the Jo Cox murder before starting again. That's the sort of crap to be scared about. So criticising a positive message just because they aren't having the whole conversation right there in front of you... I'm sorry but it just doesn't work for me.
There are things other people do that we all don't like. But standing up for their right to do them(with the obvious proviso of no harm to others) is not some niche echo chamber. It's been a hard fought battle and one that the youth of today rightly seem proud to be growing up within.
Sorry if the reply is a little long, but there appeared a strong under-current to your post that I felt needed addressing. I'd happily respond if you want to challenge anything I've written.
The familiar conversion story. It seems every right wing politico was once a hippy. It helps because they can disparage one side without accusations of bias. It would be like Che Guevara claiming he was once a Klansman, so he couldn't possibly be speaking from a position of ignorance.
*applauds*
What the hell has this thread descended into?
Are right wingers really moaning that they want to enjoy the creative industries without having to be told an opinion they disagree with? And claiming thats some form of preventing freedom of expression.
Such snowflakes
Are right wingers really moaning that they want to enjoy the creative industries without having to be told an opinion they disagree with? And claiming thats some form of preventing freedom of expression.
Such snowflakes
Now that's a great post.
This is one point I take umbrage with. What constitutes the left or right wing is entirely dependent upon economics, the rest is supplementary. Social liberalism isn't the same thing as being left wing. I'm also not sure it is possible to be socially left wing without being fiscally left wing. You could have liberal values and be a conservative, but that isn't being socially left wing. It's just being liberal.
I too think it's much less about "left" or "right" wing. It's much more about who's a dumbfeck or not.
Agree. Time to get the thread back on trackWhat the hell has this thread descended into?
Are right wingers really moaning that they want to enjoy the creative industries without having to be told an opinion they disagree with? And claiming thats some form of preventing freedom of expression.
Such snowflakes
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I'm not entirely sure what an MA in creative writing involves but if they had you read a lot of books, then cast your mind back works written before the last century. How many of them are about the aristocracy? About which son shall inherit the kingdom? How many of them are written by black people about what the life of a black person in Britain is like? How many of them are written by a poor woman about what the life of a poor woman in like? How many had to express their homosexuality in hidden metaphors?
Ask yourself this, when did the arts become so left wing? And why did it happen? Did it coincide with the lower classes getting their foot in the door? Regional centres and festivals opening up to the masses? Did the right wing attack these regional centres and festivals? Was it because minorities suddenly had a voice, because women could suddenly be themselves on a stage? Could it be because the left encouraged the arts? Funded them?
Now, ask yourself, after 7 years of austerity, of regional art centres being closed and funding denied, why are the arts particularly loud in their politics?
It's not just that the arts are predominantly left wing, it's also that the contemporary right wing is predominantly against art.
I really don't think you or do you would begin to understand why Corbyn is welcomed there.
Aw, did you smoke a joint with your buddies?
Just about everything but sentence structure by the looks of it.
The problem with May is she doesn't have a chant. You need a chant!
She needs a personality before she can get a chant
Let me try to respond to the various points (sorry if I miss any - there's been quite a lot in response to my views).
As regards to the print media being more right wing and the arts being left wing, I'd say that's fair. The difference is that there are prominent papers (The Guardian being one) that are orientated to the left. There isn't the same representation in the arts for the right. I've already acknowledged that there is more artistic propensity among liberals but I also believe there is an institutional bias that doesn't welcome other voices.
I wouldn't agree that the media in broader terms is predominantly right wing. TV news is fairly mixed; if not slightly more left.
Zarlak, I take your point. Who attends Glastonbury is who attends Glastonbury. I can't change that. I suppose it just seems that the left seems to me to assume dominance in the entertainment world in general. I find that an arrogant assumption. Right wing people watch TV and listen to music too. It seems to be a disrespect to a section of the audience and adopting a group identity that isn't connected to the predominant reason that they are there.
I'll agree that Glastonbury is a traditionally liberal event and that it does have political roots that can't be fully separated from the music. I think I'm just fed up that there seems to be such a brazen licence to be explicitly political now rather than implicitly. The leader of a particular party being given a live mic is different from rainbow flags and peace signs. I might be wrong but political bias hasn't been as in your face as at this year's festival.
My point was wider as this is yet another in a long line of recent showbiz events with political rhetoric. Yes, I'm on the opposite side of this rhetoric so naturally I'm more irritated but surely you can see that it's all getting a bit much. Do you really think all conservatives avoid watching gigs and awards shows etc.? Not to mention all the politically tinged adverts for products that are completely neutral like cars, food etc.
Mciahel Goodman, I'm referring to things like all the talk of open borders (because, you know, peace and all that), the public sector being underinvested, rich people being all scumbags etc.
Redlambs point is spot on - 'It won't stop, of course it won't. But it's a little bit hypocritical to me that people slag off the media for being pro conservative, but then defend heavily Corbyn doing a festival appearance. And again, I get why he did and if I was there this year (I missed it for once) I would have gone and cheered him on, but I'm not going to act like Labour are all good and the Cons are all evil, when they both play the same game and none of us lot end up ultimately winning.'
I'll address more later on.
As regards to the print media being more right wing and the arts being left wing, I'd say that's fair. The difference is that there are prominent papers (The Guardian being one) that are orientated to the left. There isn't the same representation in the arts for the right. I've already acknowledged that there is more artistic propensity among liberals but I also believe there is an institutional bias that doesn't welcome other voices.
I wouldn't agree that the media in broader terms is predominantly right wing. TV news is fairly mixed; if not slightly more left.
Zarlak, I take your point. Who attends Glastonbury is who attends Glastonbury. I can't change that. I suppose it just seems that the left seems to me to assume dominance in the entertainment world in general. I find that an arrogant assumption. Right wing people watch TV and listen to music too. It seems to be a disrespect to a section of the audience and adopting a group identity that isn't connected to the predominant reason that they are there.
I'll agree that Glastonbury is a traditionally liberal event and that it does have political roots that can't be fully separated from the music. I think I'm just fed up that there seems to be such a brazen licence to be explicitly political now rather than implicitly. The leader of a particular party being given a live mic is different from rainbow flags and peace signs. I might be wrong but political bias hasn't been as in your face as at this year's festival.
My point was wider as this is yet another in a long line of recent showbiz events with political rhetoric. Yes, I'm on the opposite side of this rhetoric so naturally I'm more irritated but surely you can see that it's all getting a bit much. Do you really think all conservatives avoid watching gigs and awards shows etc.? Not to mention all the politically tinged adverts for products that are completely neutral like cars, food etc.
Mciahel Goodman, I'm referring to things like all the talk of open borders (because, you know, peace and all that), the public sector being underinvested, rich people being all scumbags etc.
Redlambs point is spot on - 'It won't stop, of course it won't. But it's a little bit hypocritical to me that people slag off the media for being pro conservative, but then defend heavily Corbyn doing a festival appearance. And again, I get why he did and if I was there this year (I missed it for once) I would have gone and cheered him on, but I'm not going to act like Labour are all good and the Cons are all evil, when they both play the same game and none of us lot end up ultimately winning.'
I'll address more later on.
The majority of artistic work is done for a handful of conglomerates who own most of the music, television and publishing industries. All these companies care about is their bottom line. Unless we're really going to shit the bed here and claim Rupert Murdoch mandates lefties writing, directing and starring in his TV shows.
It staggers me that the Tories campaign focused on her for this exact reason. Even before you add to that the fact they were paying Jim Messina an absolute fortune for his 'expertise' on the subject.
what?
Just referencing a Caf chant
https://www.redcafe.net/threads/rivaldo-still-hasnt-retired.406175/#post-17727948
Oh wow, nice.
What the hell has this thread descended into?
Are right wingers really moaning that they want to enjoy the creative industries without having to be told an opinion they disagree with? And claiming thats some form of preventing freedom of expression.
Such snowflakes
Ive said that since the phrase was coined..the right are the original snowflakes
I can think of tons of things far far far worse and more harmful and more impactful than champagne socialism.
Get a haircut hippy !
Responding to more -
ThierryHenry - It's pertinent though. Corbyn is getting up on an entertainment platform of people that ultimately have gone there for music/social reasons as opposed to political reasons. It's propaganda.
SteveJ - We all have biases and irritations. Or am I just biased and irritated because I disagree with you?
FlyingHigh - I appreciate your more cordial manner as opposed to some others. Your points are a whole other topic entirely. I have expressed admiration for some of the aspects of liberal politics. I'm far from a 100% conservative. Politics is more nuanced than that. I personally find the far left's attitudes to some things morally abhorrent and the same for the right. That's what I'm saying about group think. I see a lot of people unable to acknowledge any humanity or capacity for reason on the other side of the political fence. Sadly, many on Red Cafe tend to demonise Conservatives and Leave voters etc. without any empathetic acknowledgement of their motivations, context etc.
You seem to be claiming total moral authority for the left/Labour etc. They've made lots of mistakes, as have the Tories.
I'm a pretty selfish person but I give a lot of money to charity, regularly help the poor and have supported lots of people in their rehabiltation from addictions, mental health issues etc. Could I do more? Absolutely. I can be an asshole at times. We all can. I know some incredibly moral and caring people who vote Tory. I know some terrible Labour voters. And vice versa. Neither side holds all the good or has people. We have to all make a decision with our consciences based on many factors.
I would love for a lot of what Corbyn pledges to be made reality. Of course I want better funding for our public services. Yet I don't believe it's realistic or financially responsible in the way Labour envision it.
As for Mciahel again, so what? I was a hippy who merely talked about peace and love and unity but then I grew up and started living it. I don't know what your comments achieve except for denigrating me.
Regarding terms like left or right, they are linguistic conveniences and I admit that they are simplistic. However, the current political landscape is so polarised so it is easy to categorise. I apologise. I should really have said 'far left' above.
Silva, I've made it clear that I think some liberal ideas have been very positive over history. I agree that those improvements have benefited the arts. Yet there is a danger of things going to the other side of an oppressive coin, and that's what I'm getting at.
You started your post really well and you descended again into personal abuse. You really can't help it can you? Classy guy.
As regards to Richard Murdoch, I would guess he doesn't mandate anything creatively besides what makes him money. It's the writers, casting agents etc who would do that.
ThierryHenry - It's pertinent though. Corbyn is getting up on an entertainment platform of people that ultimately have gone there for music/social reasons as opposed to political reasons. It's propaganda.
SteveJ - We all have biases and irritations. Or am I just biased and irritated because I disagree with you?
FlyingHigh - I appreciate your more cordial manner as opposed to some others. Your points are a whole other topic entirely. I have expressed admiration for some of the aspects of liberal politics. I'm far from a 100% conservative. Politics is more nuanced than that. I personally find the far left's attitudes to some things morally abhorrent and the same for the right. That's what I'm saying about group think. I see a lot of people unable to acknowledge any humanity or capacity for reason on the other side of the political fence. Sadly, many on Red Cafe tend to demonise Conservatives and Leave voters etc. without any empathetic acknowledgement of their motivations, context etc.
You seem to be claiming total moral authority for the left/Labour etc. They've made lots of mistakes, as have the Tories.
I'm a pretty selfish person but I give a lot of money to charity, regularly help the poor and have supported lots of people in their rehabiltation from addictions, mental health issues etc. Could I do more? Absolutely. I can be an asshole at times. We all can. I know some incredibly moral and caring people who vote Tory. I know some terrible Labour voters. And vice versa. Neither side holds all the good or has people. We have to all make a decision with our consciences based on many factors.
I would love for a lot of what Corbyn pledges to be made reality. Of course I want better funding for our public services. Yet I don't believe it's realistic or financially responsible in the way Labour envision it.
As for Mciahel again, so what? I was a hippy who merely talked about peace and love and unity but then I grew up and started living it. I don't know what your comments achieve except for denigrating me.
Regarding terms like left or right, they are linguistic conveniences and I admit that they are simplistic. However, the current political landscape is so polarised so it is easy to categorise. I apologise. I should really have said 'far left' above.
Silva, I've made it clear that I think some liberal ideas have been very positive over history. I agree that those improvements have benefited the arts. Yet there is a danger of things going to the other side of an oppressive coin, and that's what I'm getting at.
You started your post really well and you descended again into personal abuse. You really can't help it can you? Classy guy.
As regards to Richard Murdoch, I would guess he doesn't mandate anything creatively besides what makes him money. It's the writers, casting agents etc who would do that.
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As far as I can tell, your problem is that Corbyn spoke at Glastonbury which should be a politically neutral event in your mind. Yet the history of Glastonbury is not politically neutral. It's propaganda, but as far as propaganda goes standing in front of a large crowd and giving a speech is a lot less sinister than having your deficits airbrushed by the national print media by virtue of having made a quid pro quo pact with said media owners. The founder of Glastonbury is a Labour member, and its core reach is to the British left, though plenty of conservatives will also attend. Corbyn could have been booed. May takes no such risk when the Express, Mail, Sun, Telegraph et al write great things about her and serve as an attack dog for her rival.
You hint at wider problems with the left in general but you haven't as of yet addressed any of them in depth.
I don't know where the rich people being scumbags thing comes from.
In all honesty, it seems to me that you're moaning because you saw Corbyn on the television and you as a conservative shouldn't have to put up with seeing a left wing politician at a leftist music festival. Maybe that's not correct, but your wider point about the arts being liberal also seems irrelevant because liberalism doesn't denote left or right wing politics. It isn't even particularly true, as before, during, and after the Iraq War Labour was mercifully destroyed within that same bubble of liberals.
You hint at wider problems with the left in general but you haven't as of yet addressed any of them in depth.
The public sector does suffer from under investment. That's not liberal paraphernalia which comes from a TV show, you can find that on the news. I've yet to see any talk of open borders. Corbyn himself wanted restrictions on labour movement that people presumed would come with Brexit. He's also been anti EU for decades. Movement of people isn't a topic that fits neatly into any spectrum classification. Conservatives have a long history of open border policy because it provides cheap labour.
I don't know where the rich people being scumbags thing comes from.
In all honesty, it seems to me that you're moaning because you saw Corbyn on the television and you as a conservative shouldn't have to put up with seeing a left wing politician at a leftist music festival. Maybe that's not correct, but your wider point about the arts being liberal also seems irrelevant because liberalism doesn't denote left or right wing politics. It isn't even particularly true, as before, during, and after the Iraq War Labour was mercifully destroyed within that same bubble of liberals.