I find it wierd that right wingers take joy in trying to find flaws in people who try to be moral or nice. I can only assume its a self-justification thing.
Jeremy Corbyn - Not Not Labour Party(?), not a Communist (BBC)
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Criticising opponents for thinking they have the moral high-ground is such a bizarre criticism anyway. Of course you're going to think your own side is more moral...isn't that why you'd support them in the first place?! Naturally voters are going to opt for the party who is most in-tune with their own personal morals...because that's the party they will feel are better for the country. If you inherently thought the other side from the one you vote for was more moral then...well, you'd vote for them, surely?
There is very rarely money in that sort of thing, so it's difficult for them to grasp. Best example is Tory boy Barlow - more than happy to have his mug appear on any charity fundraiser you can arrange, not so willing to pay his fair share of tax until he got caught. At no point would a relationship between the necessity of the two have even crossed his mind.
Considering how much time you've spent on here complaining about people calling Brexit voters thick I find the patronising way you're talking about young voters here absolutely astonishing. Or rather I would if it wasn't so typical.
It's unfortunately the norm when it comes to youngsters. Corbyn's attempts to appeal to them through policies deliberately engineered to help them and that's somehow cynical and misguided, but when the Tories do the exact same thing with the old it's understandable and good electioneering.
Quite frankly it's about time someone gave the younger voters some outlandish promises: they're the age group who'll be forced to live with current government decisions the longest, and who'll likely be worse off than their parents as they grow older, something that's not been the case for a long, long time.
And Corbyn appearing at Glastonbury may be within his comfort zone, but I'd say speaking to tens of thousands of people, many of whom probably don't care all that much about politics, is far more out there than Theresa May holding pre-organised events where about seven selected guests are invited, four of whom are probably Tory MP's anyway.
Why do you suppose that these motives are inherent to Corbyn's supporters?
Criticising opponents for thinking they have the moral high-ground is such a bizarre criticism anyway. Of course you're going to think your own side is more moral...isn't that why you'd support them in the first place?! Naturally voters are going to opt for the party who is most in-tune with their own personal morals...because that's the party they will feel are better for the country. If you inherently thought the other side from the one you vote for was more moral then...well, you'd vote for them, surely?
Yes and no, sometimes the more socially applicable party isn't contending for political office, or not able to attain such. Voting is very rarely a range of ideal options, as you are well aware. Alternatively, a politician could have well-meaning intentions but potentially damaging methods.
Well yes, obviously voting can often be quite pragmatic and requires compromises etc, but on the whole people aren't going to vote for a politician that they find to be more immoral (from their own, personal moral standpoint) than the opposing option. If you're of a left-wing and liberal persuasion, then you're inherently going to find Corbyn's argument for higher taxes and more public funding to be a moral position to take. Likewise, you're probably going to find his arguments quite convincing, and will warm to him as a person and politician.
To the contrary, if you're of a socially conservative persuasion, or believe that Brexit is needed to improve British society, you're probably going to find Theresa May to be far closer to your own moral persuasions. Again, I don't see why that's somehow bizarre, or wrong. Parties are naturally going to claim to be morally superior because they believe their views to be the best suited to governing a country. No major party is every going to go into an election with the slogan, "Look, we're cnuts, and anyone who votes for is us a cnut, but we'd be alright in government."
Probably a repost.well you would
still crying for May?
I'm crying out for her to leave, utterly shocking performance. If she has anything about her she is only staying to try and redeem herself by sacrificing whatever political capital she has left to try and bring about an acceptable deal on Brexit.
I really don't understand how they ran such an awful campaign, Corbyn, Abbot and McDonnell are such easy targets. The attack adverts on Corbyn practically write themselves! Hit him on Trident, on his history with Hamas and the IRA. Talk about how often he has extolled the virtues of Venezuela's socialism and what a hell hole it is now. I know all of those points will find sympathy on Redcafe but in the real world they all poll terribly.
I never claimed that the policy didn't ultimately amount to effective electioneering; indeed, i noted during the campaign that Corbyn learnt the Brexit lesson of positivity where May failed to. Moreover, the notion that some Tory proposals do not have a basis in cynicism is a total contrivance on your part (or certainly not related to my post).
I have suggested that they are more selfish than they would like to believe of themselves, and that is the worst. Quite a way short of accusations such as thick and racist.
I think this new cult of Corbyn will be disastrous in the long term. People love an underdog, but they tend to rebel against fads. Too much hero worship and there will be counter cultural push back. He has to strike the right balance between campaign type rallies which keep the base energized, but also avoid selling himself rather than the policy. He could fall into the same trap May did and run a presidential style campaign that won't work.
Criticising opponents for thinking they have the moral high-ground is such a bizarre criticism anyway. Of course you're going to think your own side is more moral...isn't that why you'd support them in the first place?! Naturally voters are going to opt for the party who is most in-tune with their own personal morals...because that's the party they will feel are better for the country. If you inherently thought the other side from the one you vote for was more moral then...well, you'd vote for them, surely?
Nah people are more than happy to go down the immoral path to their benefit. My go to example is always people who cut queues on motorways, i mean they know they're scum of the earth surely but they so it anyway.
Daily Mails core readership can't think their moral, they'll just believe theyre right and everyone else is a lefty 'intellectual' so called expert
Only hipsters rebel against such fads MG. More people will jump on it than off it imo.
Corbyn is a very good speaker and if people actually listen to his speeches with an open mind then they'll vote for him. I just don't think this country can function for much longer under the Tories with their punishing system before shit hits the fan (and by that I mean actual riots). People are at the end of their tether. From my perspective, I have had it with patronising arseholes who have rubbed me up the wrong way regarding Brexit and now the Election. In my adult life i've had to deal with introduction of tuition fees, a global recession, Tory Government and now Brexit. I've had it with the Government constantly pissing all over my Generation year after year and I don't think i'm alone in having this attitude.
I think/hope Labour have paid enough attention over the past few months to realise that people prefer Policy over Personality. This isn't America.
I'm certainly not implying it applies to all Corbyn followers, i hate people generally far too much for that. There's plenty of yupee trustafarians or those who wear it as a badge of self-pride who support Corbyn.
I was referring to Corbyn specifically and the "oh look the lefty moral high horse isn't so superior now" kind of attitude. Feck trying to bring down people trying to do good.
I suppose I hope it is just a fad, then. There's no harm in utilising a leader's popularity at rallies, especially if that's where the leader excels as is the case with Corbyn. But, I'm more concerned with Labour costing its manifesto completely and opposing the Tories in arenas that aren't strictly grassroots. A mixture of both is best, but the chants, the memes, and the overall cult could have a negative impact should it galvanize the opposing base. I want Corbyn to win in what I think will be a summer election next year, but there are issues that need to be worked out.
Policy and personality can work together but neither can work by itself. I think Labour struck the right balance in this GE, though they'll have to get it even more right when the next GE comes around. There's no way the Tories will have a campaign as terrible as their last. The positive for Labour is that most of the dirty tricks have been tried and it didn't seem to work as well as the Tories had hoped.
Be specific please, in the Labour manifesto which good causes was money to be removed from and transfered to free uni tuition?
Just how important are Manifestos though MG? Tories had an abysmal Manifesto yet here we are with a Tory Government. The problem is that there's a huge divide in Generation voting, they seem to have stuck with the Tories this time round due to Tories delivering Brexit. I guess the promising thing from Labour point of view is that the majority of new younger voters will be going for them.
Could be any result next time round though given how close some of the constituency voting turned out to be. A few hundred vote swing could result in a victory for Labour. SNP need to sort themselves out though and take back those Tory seats.
I think their importance is more central to Labour than it is to Conservative. The Tories will never offer anything more than five years of a similar program because they have convinced a large enough proportion of the electorate that they're competent. Labour has to do the same and capitalize on Tory feck ups. Keep chipping away at the perception of credibility. May did a lot to diminish that perception herself, but more needs to be done. Labour's manifesto has to be credible because the Tories don't even really need to have one. Their last manifesto was thin, aside from the few controversial policies (triple lock, dementia tax, school funding) which didn't seem to lose them any of the vote which those policies target. I think a lot Labour's need to be whiter than white in terms of their manifesto and costings is directly due to Corbyn's proposed radical reforms. People will vote for him but they will want to know that it isn't all bluster first. If the Tories can propagate the socialist image of reckless spending (stemming immediately from the manifesto) it might be enough for them to win a GE. That is, unless the Tories feck up so much that people will vote Labour for a change/protest.
The SNP do need to do better, but it's middle England Labour has to win to get a majority. A thin majority would have been possible without SNP losing to Tories, but relying on Scotland is perilous.
think the Tories and the media all underestimated him.
The issues the voters were interested in were what affected them directly than the ones you mentioned.
That's practically all the conservative party did. Then voters took a look at Jeremy noticed him mostly talking about public services and copped the smear campaign for the bullshit it was.
I don't usually agree with you but I do here, the Tory campaign was staggeringly incompetent. A lot of Tories I know are blaming Lynton Crosbie and his mob. The Liberal was pretty crap as well!
I don't think they will. Anyone can write a Santa's wishlist when they know they wont have to deliver and the majority see that (as he wasn't elected PM). I don't think Corbyn actually wanted/expected to be elected in June anyway, he just wanted to cause maximum disruption to the status quo. That's been his political career for the last 30 odd years and it's clear how much he's loving his current predicament, despite being no closer to actual power than when he started.
This 'Tories are evil' stance is as daft and immature as anything else from either side.
The majority just don't want to see the country destroyed. Labour need to show something they could actually deliver without crippling the country for the next 20 years. That's where the annoyance at youth stems from, there doesn't seem to be a realisation that the money to pay for all the promises has to come from somewhere. That's very different from 'wanting to keep the poor down' or whatever other rubbish gets spouted on social media.
A lot of Tory voters are unhappy with May and i think would be tempted to vote for, or at least not vote against, a credible Labour party. I certainly would. Whatever party you support everyone can see something needs to change. Corbyn as a figurehead could be that, he just needs to get some competent people around him to reign him in instead of persisting with the likes of John McDonnell.
Reversing more of Osborne's stringent cuts to benefits. This was questioned during the campaign albeit to a modest degree, and were the Lib Dems the party of a decade ago such might have come up with even greater frequency. What was it, nearly three times as much on uni tuition as went into state support? It was an area which the chancellor repeatedly found himself in difficulty over, yet when the election arrived Corbyn contented himself with the low hanging fruit like the bedroom tax.
Ah so just to be clear, the money was not as you initially claimed to be 'taken from' vulnerable people, but was actually a new thing paid for by increased taxes on corporations and the wealthy?
Supporting the Tories is one thing, but at least try and be honest. Or would you see someone on the street give a tenner to a homeless guy and go up and accuse him of taking money away from the starving African you think he should have given it to instead?
There was no dishonesty. I understood your earlier post to be a request for a good cause which otherwise went neglected. If even Corbyn's Labour are going to stand aside when presented the opportunity to undo some of Osborne's strictures, what hope do they have.
Judging by the polls, they have a considerably better hope than the immoral, money driven monsters who you happily voted for in the last election. But hey, few things are funnier right now than listening to a Tory try and claim that Labour don't care about vulnerable people. You voted for people who literally caused the deaths of thousands of innocent people with their austerity program.
I voted for my local MP, who doesn't happen to be an evil, murdering, racist piece of work. Nor were those cuts to benefits without their critics among the party. I also do my best on a personal level to help mitigate the excesses of government policy, or a fair effort for someone in my position at any rate.
You know our parliamentary system better than that. You can't claim your vote was for a purely local representative and just wash your hands of the national consequences. There comes a time when the wider implications of a vote become impossible to ignore.
Ah yes lets pretend the paradigm of the tories being immoral and uncaring is silly but its perfectly reasonable to talk about Labour "crippling the country for 20 years"
I love it when the tories talk about credibility of the Labour cabinet with no sense of awareness. I can understand single issue voters, honest voters or the uninformed voters, its the tory voters who convince themselves of daily mail like logic that i have to laugh at.
"Annoyance at youth." I pity any imbecile that feels such a way. There are people in this country that deny poverty, an attitude that stems from the top of Tory party. That's irrefutable.
The banking crisis, which Gordon Brown dealt with in a way no senior Tory could even envisage, is up there with the most timely political propaganda ever seen. Idiot after idiot has bought into Tory lies since.
Labour's front bench has had more intelligent minds for the best part of three decades, something that has benefitted this country in numerous ways. The only crippling of this country I can see is the decimation of the disabled and the bullying of the poor.
Labour's front bench has had more intelligent minds for the best part of three decades, something that has benefitted this country in numerous ways. The only crippling of this country I can see is the decimation of the disabled and the bullying of the poor.
I'm just astounded that people still refer to our military people as heroes. Even serving members aren't that deluded.
What a hero.
There you go again...
Ah yes lets pretend the paradigm of the tories being immoral and uncaring is silly but its perfectly reasonable to talk about Labour "crippling the country for 20 years"
I love it when the tories talk about credibility of the Labour cabinet with no sense of awareness. I can understand single issue voters, honest voters or the uninformed voters, its the tory voters who convince themselves of daily mail like logic that i have to laugh at.
It's reasonable because the last Labour government did it. Between wars, deregulating the banking industry, (to pay for) plumping up the public sector and throwing money at failed PFI schemes, we've spent the last 8 years recovering from them and are far from finished yet.
Madly enough Corbyn's Labour openly promises to spend even more than they did. I can only think many of his supporters are too young to remember much of Blair/Brown's final days.
And yet the IFS also advised that the Conservative manifesto risked causing considerable damage to our economy and that after 7 more years of austerity they may not even be able to deliver the spending cuts they are proposing. But it must be nice to ignore that and pretend it's the youth at fault in some kind of arrogant 'we know better than you do, you're just not smart enough to understand the world' bullshit rhetoric. Conveniently ignoring the fact that statistically those with no formal qualifications are more likely to vote Conservative and those with a degree and higher levels of education are more likely to vote Labour or Lib Dem than Tory. I think you'll find that the youth are intelligent enough and are educated to a high enough standard to know what's going on without being patronised like that.
We should have a 11101 bingo card. Would make reading his posts a bit more enjoyable.