F1 2021 Season
- Thread starter pauldyson1uk
- Start date
Cool van, I have to say
Both principals can be abrasive, but the difference between them is clear when looking at the treatment of their drivers.
Horner enabled and encouraged the very worst side of Max and Seb, the former of whom stormed off the podium a couple of weeks ago while the latter has seemed like a genuinely cool person since leaving Red Bull. He's also been utterly brutal towards the second drivers he's been in charge of.
Toto meanwhile forced Lewis to learn some humility, to the point that he was able to show a remarkable amount of graciousness despite being the victim of one of the biggest robberies in F1.
They both love the camera, and talking smack, but Horner is in a league of his own when it comes to sleaze, slime, and general awfulness.
Horner enabled and encouraged the very worst side of Max and Seb, the former of whom stormed off the podium a couple of weeks ago while the latter has seemed like a genuinely cool person since leaving Red Bull. He's also been utterly brutal towards the second drivers he's been in charge of.
Toto meanwhile forced Lewis to learn some humility, to the point that he was able to show a remarkable amount of graciousness despite being the victim of one of the biggest robberies in F1.
They both love the camera, and talking smack, but Horner is in a league of his own when it comes to sleaze, slime, and general awfulness.
Dani Ric was/is a master of the dive bomb. He just has a less punchable face so probably more palatable when he does it i guess
We stand with Lewis
that’s my opinion too. i have a slight allegiance to lewis as he is british and has a good backstory but i would much rather work for wolff than horner. i’ve already compared them to fergie and mourinho. both command respect for what they’ve achieved, but i know which one i’d rather nail my colours to.
It's also worth noting that Vettel didn't exactly set the world alight since leaving Red Bull. Mostly the car, yes, but a mentality shift. Ever since Riccardo unsettled him.
Perez didn't do anything wrong, no informed Hamilton fans believe that. Lewis will think the same looking back, all drivers say things in the heat of battle. I would have loved if Bottas could have assisted Lewis like that just once this season.
Tbh, I think Vettel's performances in his last season at RB and all the seasons since have probably revealed his true level: a decent driver, but probably not one you'd look back and think "yeah, one of the greats" that his 4 WCs would suggest.
Silverstone is not comparable with the final race debacle. It is disingenuous to compare a racing incident which got penalised with a race director going rogue to manipulate the race outcome.
Again, I would urge anyone to look at this without considering the "Lewis vs Hamilton" angle, it is irrelevant, it could have been any two drivers going for the championship. Putting any rivalries aside, they can't let this happen again in F1.
No it hasn't actually. That's the thing. If you came on here, you'd think the world is coming to an end. While most people outside of this forum (and maybe the UK), accept it was a poor decision but also realise that there were a lot of poor decisions in this race and beyond it as well. In the end, Max won a deserving championship.Fixed.
Facepalm.
What fecking kind of first name is Torger anyway?
Nail on head Crofty.
I assume there are no toys left in the pram after this? Masi made only one mistake - not letting the lapped cars past earlier. Go and listen to the pit radios. Every team and driver - including Merc and Lewis - expected the restart and expected lapped cars to be let by before. Lewis actually questioned why Merc didn’t pit him because he knew immediately what would happen. If Masi had made the right call first time, lapped cars would have passed half a lap earlier. Either way, the outcome would have been the same. It’s racing. When there’s an SC, sometimes you can lose. Other times, you win. At Imola, Lewis gained massively. Here, he lost out. If anyone is to be questioned it’s the idiot on the Mercedes pit wall that decided to leave Lewis out citing “track position”. It was obvious Max would pit. Leaving Lewis out just made him a sitting duck and from there on, Merc’s only hope was to avoid a restart (hence Lewis moaning on radio about debris on a clear track).
Your post makes no sense at all which is impressive for such a long post. Again anyone who understands f1 knows that there is no way Mercedes could have pit Hamilton there so they took the most obvious decision. Masi didn’t just make one mistake but rather a series of mistakes and if he had simply just followed the rules as they are Lewis Hamilton would have been world champion
The really funny thing is that it's fans like you that ensure Lewis doesn't have more fans than he does. Go ahead mate. Suit yourself. Everything was rigged and anti-Lewis. Every race and result was cunningly setup and manipulated to bring it to the point where Masi knew that he could simply instruct Latifi to put his car into the wall and then deny Lewis the Championship. Toto in particular does himself and Lewis no favours. Nor does Lewis of course with his occasional dark remark insinuating unfairness. But more than anything, what grates is the blind one-eyed narrative peddled by fans like you - the frenzy that the media then rushes to feed with the "Lewis is the greatest ever" and "Lewis wuz robbed" angles.
you really need to tone down the homophobic and racist bullshit.
It is pure rubbish on your part and has no place in here.
You comment in white is also bang out of order.
Why do people keep pushing this nonsense? I kind of that get its to avoid undermining Max's title, but had Masi followed the rules then Lewis is champion, and him being able to make up rules to crown whoever he wants is a terrible precedent. It's something we need to make sure can't ever happen again.
Masi's "mistake" was only allowing lapped cars between Lewis and Max to unlap, ignoring everyone else in the race, and then ignoring the rule that states that the safety car must stay out until the end of the following lap after that announcement is made.
Nobody is complaining about the SC happening, that's F1, but making up rules to give Max an easy overtake to win the title is, at best, gross negligence.
Because he could've let them pass half a lap earlier, meaning all cars would pass in time, the safety car would spend Lap 57 as the following lap, and there would be racing on lap 58.
Perhaps Masi put too much emphasis on the agreement between on wanting to end races under 'green' conditions, but I figure that's why he only let some cars unlap themselves.
The easy overtake was only easy because Mercedes chose not to pit, whilst Max did. That wouldn't be taken into consideration for the safety car ending.
I don't understand this justification of 'he should have unlapped them earlier, so it's ok/understandable to break the rules to make up for it later on to have a green racing lap"
I cannot.
In football, we don't just give random penalties/red cards out for ones that the ref missed earlier in the game do we? It's nuts and chaotic and against the spirit of any sort of competition. It's a parody.
I cannot.
In football, we don't just give random penalties/red cards out for ones that the ref missed earlier in the game do we? It's nuts and chaotic and against the spirit of any sort of competition. It's a parody.
Incorrect I'm afraid, Marshalls were still out on track on lap 56 as per a screenshot somewhere on this thread. Plus, that's just not when he did let them pass is it, it was lap 57 and should've ended behind SC. It's as simple as that, the procedure was not followed. Some of you coming in here like "oh well should've let them unlap sooner" 1. as i said, lap 56, people still on track and 3. that's not how it works.
Even if they lapped early on 57, the stewards threw out the Mercedes protest basing it on 48.13 in the sporting regulations that says "
When the clerk of the course decides it is safe to call in the safety car the message "SAFETY CAR IN THIS LAP" will be sent to all Competitors via the official messaging system and the car's orange lights will be extinguished. This will be the signal to the Competitors and drivers that it will be entering the pit lane at the end of that lap."
Now anyone can argue that goes against 48.12, which the stewards also admitted: "
That although Article 48.12 may not have been applied fully, in relation to the safety car returning to the pits at the end of the following lap, Article 48.13 overrides that and once the message “Safety Car in this lap” has been displayed, it is mandatory to withdraw the safety car at the end of that lap."
My point is that when the race restarted Lewis was still in the lead, they wanted the race to finish under 'green' conditions as all teams had long agreed was preferrable, and whether one car took a risk to pit, and the other didn't wasn't a factor in the decision to re-start the race.
Wow. For the first time, someone who was on the scene and is effectively part of the sport, calling it like it is. I pretty much agree with all Crofty has said, apart from his view that there was no collusion.
I wish Lewis simply had an engine blowout on Lap 1 and we have all gone home satisfied with the ending. We wouldn't have to witness things we shouldn't.
His engine being sabotaged by Masi himself you mean...
See the problem with that argument is to activate 48.13 they had to break the rules for 48.12 ...
Ok firstly, it's crazy how many times you keep saying they could have pitted earlier. So many posters have told you why that couldn't happen. You yourself included pictures that you thought proved they could when it shows there were stewards still out at turn 14 when the safety car passed - two corners is not enough time to unlap everyone and get the safety car back in.
Secondly, yeah they threw it out because they are covering their own arses. Multiple lawyers have now lined up and spoken about the regulations. 48.13 is a prescriptive regulation, it is describing the processes, not overriding a regulation that comes just before it. Basically it goes 48.12 - lapped cars will be told to unlap themselves and after the final lapped car has unlapped itself the safety car comes in the following lap THEN 48.13 when the clerk deems it safe he will send out the signal that the safety car is in this lap.
The reason we know that that is the reading is because of this line in 48.12 ' Unless the clerk of the course considers the presence of the safety car is still necessary, once the last lapped car has passed the leader the safety car will return to the pits at the end of the following lap'.
So it's not that 48.13 overrides the previous regulation, it is stating that once the last car unlaps itself it is not an automatic signal that the safety car comes in, he still needs to discern if its safe or not before sending that message.
Wow this post is even worse than your first one. I have no idea what you are on about with Lewis not having fans because of his behaviour. Anyone with half a brain can see that what happened was clearly not right and the title was decided based on a series of mistakes by Masi . Does that mean that Lewis didn’t have any luck over the season ? Absolutely not but it is clear & obvious to anyone who saw the final race that it was an unprecedented error by Masi so obviously people can complain
It’s been 5 days since the incident and I haven’t seen any examples of races where the director decided to unlap only a certain number of cars and decided to bring it in a lap earlier. This after deciding exactly the opposite a minute later. In the end Lewis Hamilton lost a world championship because of that so it’s obvious that his fans would complain about that . No idea what your issue with that is
I do feel this last race fiasco is amplified because it was the last race. There's been plenty of controversies both ways this season, evenly distributed between the two.
I can completely imagine that Lewis and Merc fans are livid, but feck it. Put on that Frozen song.
I can completely imagine that Lewis and Merc fans are livid, but feck it. Put on that Frozen song.
I think that’s a fair argument. If anything for Max as well it has taken the gloss off a bit for what was a pretty incredible season. Few people are talking about him and all the conversation is about Mercedes
Outgoing FIA president Jean Todt believes the governing body has perhaps been "too permissive" of teams criticizing officials, comparing the issue to a football coach blasting the referee.
The controversial outcome of last weekend's Abu Dhabi Grand Prix in which Max Verstappen pipped Lewis Hamilton to the world title on the very last lap of the race was the final episode of a series of incident-filled events that took place this season.
While Verstappen and Hamilton were the main actors on the stage this year, their respective team bosses took on prominent support roles that often pushed them to publicly vociferate their frustrations over the often-contentious decisions levied upon their drivers this year by the FIA stewards.
Todt, who will relinquish his FIA presidency this week, believes the time has perhaps come for the governing body to force team bosses and drivers to rein in their criticism of officials.
https://f1i.com/news/429098-todt-su...Fu8oW2HyiWjkWv7hPbDbLtYqybBQA4rhIcR0MXXaR91WU
The controversial outcome of last weekend's Abu Dhabi Grand Prix in which Max Verstappen pipped Lewis Hamilton to the world title on the very last lap of the race was the final episode of a series of incident-filled events that took place this season.
While Verstappen and Hamilton were the main actors on the stage this year, their respective team bosses took on prominent support roles that often pushed them to publicly vociferate their frustrations over the often-contentious decisions levied upon their drivers this year by the FIA stewards.
Todt, who will relinquish his FIA presidency this week, believes the time has perhaps come for the governing body to force team bosses and drivers to rein in their criticism of officials.
https://f1i.com/news/429098-todt-su...Fu8oW2HyiWjkWv7hPbDbLtYqybBQA4rhIcR0MXXaR91WU
The only way Mercedes, Lewis and Lewis fans get closure on this is him winning title number 8, next season or season after.
I've been watching F1 for over 30 years now, seen title heartbreaks for Mansell, hill, alonso etc. Nothing has hurt as much as this one though, it still hurts as a passionate fan and a fan of lewis. Truly wish that max had sealed the title a few races back or simply blitzed the last gp and won by a country mile. Winning the title like this and robbing lewis in the process is so very very wrong. Note nothing against Max and RB here.
As a bare minimum Michael Masi has to be sacked. He cant continue, ever slightly dodgy decision next season will be called out by fans, media and teams themselves and amplified.
I've been watching F1 for over 30 years now, seen title heartbreaks for Mansell, hill, alonso etc. Nothing has hurt as much as this one though, it still hurts as a passionate fan and a fan of lewis. Truly wish that max had sealed the title a few races back or simply blitzed the last gp and won by a country mile. Winning the title like this and robbing lewis in the process is so very very wrong. Note nothing against Max and RB here.
As a bare minimum Michael Masi has to be sacked. He cant continue, ever slightly dodgy decision next season will be called out by fans, media and teams themselves and amplified.
Its fair point you make, I have no problem with Max and him winning, I had the season 50/50.
The problem was the last lap in the last race, feck me if you went to a film studio with that script they will thrown it out, as unbelievable.
Mansall's was a killer , his Tyre going the way it did.
It's like masi staged it for the next season of netflix Drive to Survive or whatever it's called.
Joking obviously
Yes, I was a kid then and cried my eyes out as I was a huge Mansell fan.
The picture is from lap 56, and it shows the last of the stewards leaving the track. That's more than half a lap before the 4 cars started unlapping themselves. I'm saying they could've unlapped all the cars if they'd let them unlap themselves earlier than they did, and then they'd have time to unlap all the cars on lap 57, and restart the race for lap 58. After which the decision to race for the last lap would be a less controversial, even if the 'following lap' procedure would still be waived. Masi would still refer to the agreement among all the teams that it's preferrable to end the race under 'green' conditions, and that argument would hold more weight that way.
There'd still be noise about it, but I think it'd be less of a controversy.
Mercedes chose not to pit because they weren't aware of the made up rule about to be invoked that second place would get a free run at first place, while third place has to stay behind lapped cars.
If they'd known that was the rule, they'd almost certainly have pitted Lewis so that he could have a nice easy overtake on softs.
As for the first part, it's been pointed out by enough other posters that they had to wait for the track to be fully clear. But most importantly, defending ignoring the rulebook because you liked the result is a dangerous precedent, as there's no guarantee you'll like the outcome next time the race director takes it upon himself to fix a championship.
Yeah, you can't invent this shit. For all the debate in here, I think it's quite clear Hamilton was fecked in the last race. The goal of the rules in racing should be so that the dude who's fastest around the track wins (bar him crashing or similar). That last race, the fastest person lost.