F1 2021 Season

Charlie Foley said:
Don’t watch F1 but curious about the controversy. This is my understanding if someone could confirm or correct please.

When this decision was made, did Hamilton have time to get new tires? Without hindsight how unusual a decision was it for Mercedes not to change his tires before the decision was made

I hope my interpretation is correct and if anyone could answer the few questions I have that would be great.
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Not unusual at all. A quirk of the F1 rules is that the car doing the chasing has a strategy advantage in a safety car/virtual safety car scenario in a 'game theory' sense, because they have nothing to lose by taking the cheap pitstop. Bear in mind, a 'normal' pitstop costs about 25 seconds, a pitstop under VSC/safety car costs about half that.

It's an impossible situation for Hamilton and Mercedes. If Hamilton goes into the pits, Verstappen wouldn't have pitted and would have taken the lead. It would then have been a big ask, under normal circumstances, for Lewis to pass Verstappen. It's also a completely unnecessary risk, based on the standard rules and regulations.

If Hamilton doesn't go into the pits, he maintains track position but then Max will pit and will be on much quicker tires. There was no way Mercedes could have known that Masi would apply a completely unprecedented and highly-controversial application of the rules to the final lap.

Another thing that occurs to me that highlights the absolute stinking nature of this...why didn't Masi care so much about who finished 2nd? Why wasn't Carlos Sainz allowed to follow Max through to attack him and Lewis for 2nd...oh...and if that's the case, why wasn't Tsunoda (i think) allowed to follow Sainz through to compete for a podium? And so on and so forth...

See...whichever way you look at it, Masi was completely, 100%, totally manipulating this and cared only about the spectacle of having a new champion with a last lap overtake

EDIT: I think what has to be 100% clear here is that Mercedes did nothing wrong at all from a strategy perspective. Neither did Red Bull, they did the best they could and then hoped for a 'miracle', in Horner's words....even typing that makes me suspiscious
 
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spiriticon said:
I'm now starting to wonder if the whole 'exciting' season was fixed by Masi for the contenders to have roughly equal points on the last race, to draw in record numbers of viewers. Handing out penalties at key moments, letting things go at other key moments....

Ugh, can of worms.
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He is just not intelligent enough for that.
 
The Cat said:
Perez though would have had DRS no? That makes a massive difference. I wish they would bin it to be honest and just widen parts of the tracks. Slipstream and overtake like it used to be rather than the artificial nonsense.
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I'd need to re-watch, but I'm not sure at the chicane Perez did because Hamilton got that first overtake done on that straight?
 
Ikon said:
Horses for courses isn't it.
If United won a Cup, under completely bent circumstances, and our opponents have completely outclassed us and were blatantly robbed by the officials.
Sure some people would celebrate that, but for me, I hold a grain of sporting integrity, and I would just feel ashamed.
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That's where your wrong though. Mercedes dominated the last few races.

Max dominated the season. Most wins Most Podiums.

Hell Max had more Laps led than Lewis and the entire rest of the grid put together.

He deserved the championship over the season.

Even with Abu Dhabi Max lost more points than Lewis due to lucky/uncontrollable moments.

 
What I'm still struggling to understand is Masi's thought process.

Prior to the Latifi crash he must have been incredibly relieved that, the first lap incident between Max and Lewis aside, the race had been pretty uneventful for the leaders and it seemed like Lewis was cruising to a non-controversial victory.

Then when Latifi crashed he must have absolutely shat himself. He has to sort the crash out and think about how to restart. He left it too late to red flag, so that is off the table. He knows its unlucky on Lewis and people would be a bit miffed by it. But wait, he has a get out of jail free card: "if I follow the regulations then the race finishes under the SC. Red Bull, you surely don't want that, so we'll resume without unlapping which means we'll get 1 more lap in. That's literally the best I can do for you under the rules". In that scenario Lewis is 95% likely to win and I think everyone would be like "well, its not perfect but we can't really argue the right person didn't win.

Instead of taking this incredibly easy get out where he is both 100% covered by the rules and the sporting integritry of the race is preserved he goes for this bizarre scenario where he both breaks the rules and screws up the integritry of the race. I just don't get it. I know the easy answer is "he wants an exciting finish". But does he? He's not paid to have exciting races so I don't see his motivation here. Unless his bosses were in his ear, in which case his bosses ARE corrupt and he is weak.
 
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slyadams said:
What I'm still struggling to understand is Masi's thought process.

Prior to the Latifi crash he must have been incredibly relieved that, the first lap incident between Max and Lewis aside, the race had been pretty uneventful for the leaders and it seemed like Lewis was cruising to a non-controversial victory.

Then when Latifi crashed he must have absolutely shat himself. He has to sort the crash out and think about how to restart. He left it too late to red flag, so that is off the table. He knows its unlucky on Lewis and people would be a bit miffed by it. But wait, he has a get out of jail free card: "if I follow the regulations then the race finishes under the SC. Red Bull, you surely don't want that, so we'll resume without unlapping which means we'll get 1 more lap in. That's literally the best I can do for you under the rules". In that scenario Lewis is 95% likely to win and I think everyone would be like "well, its not perfect but we can't really argue the right person didn't win.

Instead of taking this incredibly easy get out where he is both 100% covered by the rules and the sporting integritry of the race is preserved he goes for this bizarre scenario where he both breaks the rules and screws up the ingerity of the race. I just don't get it. I know the easy answer is "he wants an exciting finish". But does he? He's not paid to have exciting races so I don't see his motivation here. Unless his bosses were in his ear, in which case his bosses ARE corrupt and he is weak.
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The correct thing to do is let the unlapped cars through. He just hesitated. There was a window to let them through and the result would have been the exact same as it ended up.

He also could have red flagged.

He also could have ended under saftey car

And that right there is F1s problem. All 3 are acceptable and legal options.
 
BrilliantOrange said:
I think he was just really blind-sided not wanting to end the Championship deciding race in a safety-car (possibly thinking it would be a huge anti-climax perhaps???). Therefore made rash decisions to prevent that from happening in stead of taking the time to really evaluate what should have been done. He made dreadful decision of which Lewis was obviously the victim. Which he didnt deserve in such a perfect race from his side under so much pressure, and in the end just wasnt fair at all.

---------------
(doubting twenty times whether to write the below or not, as risking going into a yes-no-yes-no-yes-no argument while I really have to do some work today....)

I disagree though that he 'gifted' Max the championship. He definitely gifted him the race and as a result Max won the Championship, but in the end it was 1/22. There were 21 other races in which Lewis and Max both earned points in races with no controversy at all to races with more controversy... By saying he gifted Max the championship is - however I fully understand the tendency to argue as such - I think you do Max short over the whole year..
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But if u take out the name Max in your comments and added Lewis it would still have the same message. And that's the point. They both headed into the Abu Dhabi race on equal footing. All the talk of the past errors/gifts etc is moot.

Everything was based on this race -- and the results of this race is dubious at best due to a person who ignored protocol and rules and decided to create TV drama regardless of what went on in the previous laps or who was ahead. He wanted to climax the race as a 1 lap shootout despite Lewis driving magnificently, managing his hards for nearly 40 laps and yet beating Max for nearly every lap despite newer tires?

All this ignoring the fact that he only selected a few cars to unlap which in itself was against all the existing written rules. And bring in the safety car prematurely.

Basically, he mistook himself as a reality TV director instead of a race director.


If he thinks he has the authority to do this, what's stopping him from doing the same thing again?
 
spiriticon said:
I'm now starting to wonder if the whole 'exciting' season was fixed by Masi for the contenders to have roughly equal points on the last race, to draw in record numbers of viewers. Handing out penalties at key moments, letting things go at other key moments....

Ugh, can of worms.
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I'd say that was 100% in his thinking when he gave Max the 10s penalty in Saudi for brake testing Lewis. A lot of people called it out at the time.
 
slyadams said:
What I'm still struggling to understand is Masi's thought process.

Prior to the Latifi crash he must have been incredibly relieved that, the first lap incident between Max and Lewis aside, the race had been pretty uneventful for the leaders and it seemed like Lewis was cruising to a non-controversial victory.

Then when Latifi crashed he must have absolutely shat himself. He has to sort the crash out and think about how to restart. He left it too late to red flag, so that is off the table. He knows its unlucky on Lewis and people would be a bit miffed by it. But wait, he has a get out of jail free card: "if I follow the regulations then the race finishes under the SC. Red Bull, you surely don't want that, so we'll resume without unlapping which means we'll get 1 more lap in. That's literally the best I can do for you under the rules". In that scenario Lewis is 95% likely to win and I think everyone would be like "well, its not perfect but we can't really argue the right person didn't win.

Instead of taking this incredibly easy get out where he is both 100% covered by the rules and the sporting integritry of the race is preserved he goes for this bizarre scenario where he both breaks the rules and screws up the ingerity of the race. I just don't get it. I know the easy answer is "he wants an exciting finish". But does he? He's not paid to have exciting races so I don't see his motivation here. Unless his bosses were in his ear, in which case his bosses ARE corrupt and he is weak.
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He didn't want the who season's climatic race to end up being a damp squib ... all that media build up to end up flaccid. As I said above -- he became and became a reality TV director instead of a race director.
 
sglowrider said:
He didn't want the who season's climatic race to end up being a damp squib ... all that media build up to end up flaccid. As I said above -- he became and became a reality TV director instead of a race director.
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This doesn't make sense though. I've never seen a referee/official in any other sport breaking rules to make a sporting event "more exciting". Its a fundamental abdication of his responsibilities to do that, which would make him fundamentally corrupt. The more I think about it, the more I'm wondering if he got pushed by someone on high, and in my mind that's quite a bit more insidious.
 
Lentwood said:
Not unusual at all. A quirk of the F1 rules is that the car doing the chasing has a strategy advantage in a safety car/virtual safety car scenario in a 'game theory' sense, because they have nothing to lose by taking the cheap pitstop. Bear in mind, a 'normal' pitstop costs about 25 seconds, a pitstop under VSC/safety car costs about half that.

It's an impossible situation for Hamilton and Mercedes. If Hamilton goes into the pits, Verstappen wouldn't have pitted and would have taken the lead. It would then have been a big ask, under normal circumstances, for Lewis to pass Verstappen. It's also a completely unnecessary risk, based on the standard rules and regulations.

If Hamilton doesn't go into the pits, he maintains track position but then Max will pit and will be on much quicker tires. There was no way Mercedes could have known that Masi would apply a completely unprecedented and highly-controversial application of the rules to the final lap.

Another thing that occurs to me that highlights the absolute stinking nature of this...why didn't Masi care so much about who finished 2nd? Why wasn't Carlos Sainz allowed to follow Max through to attack him and Lewis for 2nd...oh...and if that's the case, why wasn't Tsunoda (i think) allowed to follow Sainz through to compete for a podium? And so on and so forth...

See...whichever way you look at it, Masi was completely, 100%, totally manipulating this and cared only about the spectacle of having a new champion with a last lap overtake

EDIT: I think what has to be 100% clear here is that Mercedes did nothing wrong at all from a strategy perspective. Neither did Red Bull, they did the best they could and then hoped for a 'miracle', in Horner's words....even typing that makes me suspiscious
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On the last SC I definitely agree with you. But I thought their strategy early on left a lot to be desired - covering up Max made little sense when that effectively threw away Lewis' tyre advantage coming into the race, especially because it put him behind Perez. And ultimately that was the difference between Lewis having a completely free pit stop under the first virtual SC - so even if everything plays out exactly the same way Lewis would be on hards with 20 fewer laps on them; suspect he might have been able to hold off Verstappen in that scenario.
 
sglowrider said:
He didn't want the who season's climatic race to end up being a damp squib ... all that media build up to end up flaccid. As I said above -- he became and became a reality TV director instead of a race director.
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Yep.

The "all we need is one race lap" from Horner is really telling though. That should be looked at more after what happened, but of course it won't be. The likes of he and Toto have no business in the RD's ear all race, it's shambolic.
 
How many card couldn't unlap and how many were still out on the track behind them(some were in the pits I think? Also were any between Max and the next guy.
 
Still can't get over how magnificent race we had on Sunday. To have that final lap showdown with the best take it all was really special. Well done to all involved.
 
laughtersassassin said:
The correct thing to do is let the unlapped cars through. He just hesitated. There was a window to let them through and the result would have been the exact same as it ended up.

He also could have red flagged.

He also could have ended under saftey car

And that right there is F1s problem. All 3 are acceptable and legal options.
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But, what he ended up doing, was not.
 
Redlambs said:
Yep.

The "all we need is one race lap" from Horner is really telling though. That should be looked at more after what happened, but of course it won't be. The likes of he and Toto have no business in the RD's ear all race, it's shambolic.
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It's no excuse for Masi's behaviour though. There's always going to be pressure in that situation, in any sport, but in no way would a manager complaining to a referee justify the ref upgrading a free kick on the half way line to a penalty against no keeper.

There needs to be that open line for teams to receive information and ask for clarification, things like that. The moaning and pressure perhaps could be legislated against, but even so the race director can't fold like wet paper whenever a team principal tells him what to do!
 
Has there been a reaction from Toto yet?

When are we likely to hear about CAS, if its possible? If there a time limit on these things
 
TheMagicFoolBus said:
On the last SC I definitely agree with you. But I thought their strategy early on left a lot to be desired - covering up Max made little sense when that effectively threw away Lewis' tyre advantage coming into the race, especially because it put him behind Perez. And ultimately that was the difference between Lewis having a completely free pit stop under the first virtual SC - so even if everything plays out exactly the same way Lewis would be on hards with 20 fewer laps on them; suspect he might have been able to hold off Verstappen in that scenario.
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I see your point but I was only really talking about the strategy in relation to the last few laps. Plus, it's quite difficult to criticise a strategy that ultimately had Hamilton coasting to victory. I think Mercedes knew throughout that they had race pace and just didn't want to take any risks whatsoever
 
I like the idea of sharing the championship tbh. Both drivers get what they deserve. That's a nice ending.

I wonder if that can be negotiated.
 
The Hilton said:
It's no excuse for Masi's behaviour though. There's always going to be pressure in that situation, in any sport, but in no way would a manager complaining to a referee justify the ref upgrading a free kick on the half way line to a penalty against no keeper.

There needs to be that open line for teams to receive information and ask for clarification, things like that. The moaning and pressure perhaps could be legislated against, but even so the race director can't fold like wet paper whenever a team principal tells him what to do!
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I never once suggested that it is.

Also, no. It should be one-way communication with the only possible line back if they want to clarify. There should be no asking them to accept penalties, no letting them discuss the race and what should happen, no moaning.
 
Can't see anything but Mercedes being offered some nice 'incentives' to feck off.
 
Redlambs said:
I never once suggested that it is.

Also, no. It should be one-way communication with the only possible line back if they want to clarify. There should be no asking them to accept penalties, no letting them discuss the race and what should happen, no moaning.
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Yeah negotiation for penalties etc is ridiculous (again that's on Masi for turning that in to a thing), but there needs to be a line available for clarification and questions that are legitimate.
 
The Hilton said:
Yeah negotiation for penalties etc is ridiculous (again that's on Masi for turning that in to a thing), but there needs to be a line available for clarification and questions that are legitimate.
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Strictly controlled though. In fact, it shouldn't be team principles talking and asking.

None of this will happen though, we are stuck with it as it is I reckon :(
 
laughtersassassin said:
That's where your wrong though. Mercedes dominated the last few races.
Max dominated the season. Most wins Most Podiums.
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Your point is completely and utterly irrelevant in the context of the official's decision making in the final race.
Otherwise what was the point of even having the final race, Max already had most podiums etc etc, so he deserved to win, even if he lost..?!?


Basically your saying if a team were brilliant in every round of the FA Cup, then even if they were outclassed in the Final, they should still be awarded the Cup because they were the best over the whole competition and scored the most goals, except in the final, where they lost....?!?!
What absolute nonsense. I'll have some of whatever you're smoking for Christmas please...!!:lol::lol::lol:
 
spiriticon said:
I like the idea of sharing the championship tbh. Both drivers get what they deserve. That's a nice ending.

I wonder if that can be negotiated.
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Lentwood said:
They should award Lewis the race but void the points, tieing them on wins and points and declare it a shared Championship
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I like the optimism. Sadly there could be only one winner. U lose some i win some. Luckily win for Hamilton in Baku, Silverstone and Hungaroring so we had a great fight till the end but sadly for him loss came on the last lap of the final race.
 
Jerch said:
I like the optimism. Sadly there could be only one winner. U lose some i win some. Luckily win for Hamilton in Baku, Silverstone and Hungaroring so we had a great fight till the end but sadly for him loss came on the last lap of the final race.
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Gold medals have been shared in the Olympics.

Regardless, the real outcome that is needed is Masi fired. FIA have to acknowledge something went a bit wrong somewhere at some point.

Sweeping this under a rug and letting the fixing continue for next season is the worst outcome for F1.
 
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