Was noodling on this a bit - if Sainz had overtaken Danny Ric under blue flags and had Lewis / Max taken each other out on the last lap, wouldn't that have put Lewis in 10th and Verstappen 11th? Making Lewis champion by a point as Verstappen's fastest lap wouldn't have counted...
F1 2021 Season
- Thread starter pauldyson1uk
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Doubt they will release anymore of the radio from last night but really want to know what was said between Lewis and the pit wall, they have pretty much sussed out what's about to happen.
You don’t get any points for a DNF I don’t believe. I could be wrong
He would have been classified 10th though - as Sainz clearing Ricciardo would have meant that Ricciardo wouldn't have been allowed to start his final lap, putting him behind Hamilton and Verstappen. Hamilton would have been ahead based on track position entering the final lap - and both could be classified for finishing as they'd completed 90% of the race.
100% correct. block passing and blocking another car not making the corner isn’t a proper move.
just because max managed to turn the corner, what else is lewis supposed to do in that situation? he’s been left with zero room and had to take evasive action across the track.
he slowed down so he didn’t gain a big advantage, the stewards called it 50/50 as it was.
it’s good you’re asking questions, and you aren’t being a wind up.
Ok fair enough if you put it like this. I feel my nationality is working against me in this thread when asking this, but I was genuinely interested. I know feck all about F1. I watched it a bit when Schumacher always won and remember Jos Verstappen always crashed.
People without much racing knowledge just think a tyre is like a normal car tyre. What they don’t understand is the softer versions of the tyres is like adding super sticky glue to them. they’ll grip like crazy at the start but eventually wear out fast.
The harder tyres will last a lot longer and give more consistent laps, but they won’t ever reach the faster times of the softer tyre.
Max not only has the benefit of soft tyres that were brand new, but lewis was on hard tyres, 40 laps old.
The hard tyres also take a lot longer to heat up and get grippy, where as the softs get hotter faster and ‘activate’ a lot quicker. I can only compare it to lewis trying to run on ice with trainers, and max had ice skates.
with the 2 cars being pretty much equal in performance and max being an aggressive over taker, lewis really had very little chance of surviving.
Just watching Ted's Notebook from last night. I can never get used to the way he's just milling about mumbling into the mic with his back to the camera
So I thought the same and something I don't think is mentioned as much is that Hamilton leaving the door open on Perez on the first time down the back straight let Perez back through and that cost Hamilton the best part of 8 seconds ultimately following Perez for another lap. Add that into the race situation and Lewis probably has enough time to pit under the SC and keep Max behind. I get he was super scared of making contact with a RB, but Perez is a hard but fair racer, Lewis just stuck to the racing line on the right and left the door wide open for Perez.
Perez though would have had DRS no? That makes a massive difference. I wish they would bin it to be honest and just widen parts of the tracks. Slipstream and overtake like it used to be rather than the artificial nonsense.
I feel bad for Lewis, but he's also shown an incredible amount of restraint in not reacting. This has totally gone out of the window now and nothing will ever change the fact that Max got the WDC. It's done with.
Some people don't like him on a personal level, which I get, but there are also people who clearly don't like Lewis being at the top of the sport because he is a proud black man, who also happens to support a lot of issues traditionalists also don't get along with, which involves human beings being treated with respect. That is extremely sad.
He has faced that throughout his career from the beginning, and he had to virtually beg people in his profession to make a small gesture about racism not being acceptable.
At the end of the day it may just boil down to an errant judgement call made by Masi, but it has really affected the integrity and image of F1 by not correcting it.
Some people don't like him on a personal level, which I get, but there are also people who clearly don't like Lewis being at the top of the sport because he is a proud black man, who also happens to support a lot of issues traditionalists also don't get along with, which involves human beings being treated with respect. That is extremely sad.
He has faced that throughout his career from the beginning, and he had to virtually beg people in his profession to make a small gesture about racism not being acceptable.
At the end of the day it may just boil down to an errant judgement call made by Masi, but it has really affected the integrity and image of F1 by not correcting it.
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Interesting perspective on Masi and FIA:
I actually read about another scenario just now in a piece from Radio-Canada. The journalist suggested that they ccould declare the last race null and void, in which case they can wipe all this nonsense from history, go with the standings before the race - and still declare Verstappen champion because of larger number of poles.
Obviously though, that would mean the FIA admit big errors were made, so if that path is chosen, I suppose they'd blame it all on Masi and fire him for it. I guess it would be a clean break for the FIA though: 'We're sorry one guy messed everything up. We will get rid of him, erase his last actions, and start the new season afresh'.
I suppose that would be rather radical though - and maybe they'd own money to Abu Dhabi if they would declare the race null and void?
The rules seem odd if Max was allowed to force Lewis to take evasive action to avoid a crash then claim he stayed on track so all was good, but Lewis took the piss with where he rejoined the track, so I guess the stewards just said meh, as you were.
Ridiculous.
Don't really understand why it was only Mercedes protesting that weird 'ruling'
Why would Masi be so against ending under safety car?
Why would he only let the cars between Max and Lewis unlap themselves?
Why didn't he simply implement the rules? He doesn't need a large tram of strategists for that.
He gifted the race and championship to Max. You have to question Masi's ntegrity. Its not just "mistakes".
Then the title would be decided by Masi decision in Spa. What a clusterfeck.
It also boggles my mind why they just would unlap the whole field if that was what they were going for. Is it because they were worried it would take too much time before going into the final lap?
Seems to be the reason, yes. Rules were completely thrown out the window to enable the one lap shootout to occur.
Yes. By the time the rest of the grid would have got passed they would have already gone passed the pitlane, so the safety car would have to do 1 more lap and they'd finish the race behind the safety car.
They made a half assed call to get 1 final lap of racing for a showpiece finish, instead of following the rulebook correctly. That's why so many people are annoyed.
They should have either left the lapped cars where they were, or unlapped them all and finished like that.
I think he was just really blind-sided not wanting to end the Championship deciding race in a safety-car (possibly thinking it would be a huge anti-climax perhaps???). Therefore made rash decisions to prevent that from happening in stead of taking the time to really evaluate what should have been done. He made dreadful decision of which Lewis was obviously the victim. Which he didnt deserve in such a perfect race from his side under so much pressure, and in the end just wasnt fair at all.
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(doubting twenty times whether to write the below or not, as risking going into a yes-no-yes-no-yes-no argument while I really have to do some work today....)
I disagree though that he 'gifted' Max the championship. He definitely gifted him the race and as a result Max won the Championship, but in the end it was 1/22. There were 21 other races in which Lewis and Max both earned points in races with no controversy at all to races with more controversy... By saying he gifted Max the championship is - however I fully understand the tendency to argue as such - I think you do Max short over the whole year..
Fully agree. In hindsight - if he really wanted to prevent ending the race in a Safety Car and still give Max/Lewis both as equal as much possible changes - they should have immediately gone to the red flag.
I genuinely can’t remember anything like this is any sport. I swear if Mercedes actually had the constructors on the line then FIA would be destroyed in court
I do think if they had that moment again they'd have done that. Red flag the race, get rid of the back markers and let everybody have fresh tyres.
Then they could have a last 3-4 lap showdown and it would have been a lot fairer. I think both sides of fans would accept the best man wins, but what they ended up doing left a really sour taste.
I don't have any blame for Max or Redbull - they did nothing wrong. It's purely the FIA and that daft prat Masi who turned it into a shitshow.
To be fair they should have thought of that upfrunt right. During the race they should have considered already: What do we do it there is a safety car in laps near the end? If they would have done that they could have immediately done the right thing when Latifi gave the assist in the world cup final.
Just googled that, can only find a Daily Mail article. Whereas other media, F1 media and a piece quoting an arbitration lawyer, still talking about CAS as an option.
CAS was set up to deal with disputes in sport.. this sounds like one?
The race director should not consider the entertainment factor. He is there to implement the rules. Anyone who knows F1 (eg Masi) would know Max had fresh tyres and Lewis had 40 lap old tyres. It is not even a last lap shootout.
As for the final part, yes Max did well to stay in contention and had some great performances. But ultimately he would not have won without Masi interventions which went against the rules. Yes,Max had a great season. But when you take into account Spa (half points undeserved), not being penalised for brake checking (ie no grid penalty or points penalty) and then this debacle in the final race, it was definitely a gift in my opinion.
Max deserved to come a close 2nd this season and be praised for getting so close with a bright future ahead of him.
What makes him look even more of a dickhead (if that's possible) is they'd made a decision to leave unlapped cars as they were... not ideal but probably could have swung that. THEN gets called by Horner and changes decision .. but not to all cars, just the cars between Verstappen and Hamilton.
I'm not a Hamilton fan but I honestly think Verstappen comes across overly spoiled and Horner is just a wanker .. but I like F1 and sport in general. On the day of the race, I thought it was stupid... on reflection, I think it's one of the worst sporting decisions (given the magnitude) I can remember.
(Apologies for the ellipsis, I'm getting an error trying to quote your post.)
Unfortunately for Max, due to Masi handing him the race win that he required, this title win will always be tainted, especially if there are no repercussions. It'll count statistically, but it'll be the one where the race director made up rules so Max could win.
Part of me expects a situation similar to when the IOC handed out two sets of gold medals - don't punish Max for Masi being an imbecile, but also not punishing Lewis for the same thing. That will also be consistent with the general sentiment that neither driver deserved to lose.
Horses for courses isn't it.
If United won a Cup, under completely bent circumstances, and our opponents have completely outclassed us and were blatantly robbed by the officials.
Sure some people would celebrate that, but for me, I hold a grain of sporting integrity, and I would just feel ashamed.
I don’t religiously follow F1 and not too bothered who won.
But why can’t they take the times pre safety car and add them to the final result?
But why can’t they take the times pre safety car and add them to the final result?
That would be bending the rules just as much as what happened now..
What?!
Lewis was much faster in this race from the beginning and even with his old tyres was holding back Max.
The turning point was when Max changed to fresh tyres during the safety car and so it was easy to go past Lewis.
But no way was Max faster on the day.
I agree with this. Even if I can accept (no I can't really) that he fixed the race for TV, the fact that he thought Lewis on old hards vs Max on new softs 1vs1 would make good TV shows a complete lack of understanding for the fundamentals of the sport.
It's a shocker.
Good news, it's not over for Masi yet: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/59643988
"The subject is controversial, so senior figures have not been prepared to speak on the record in the immediate aftermath of the race. But a number have told BBC Sport that at least half the F1 teams have lost confidence in race director Michael Masi, and that many of the drivers have concerns as well."
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I could live with that..
Lets agree to disagree on the bold conclusion on Max, but we definitely agree in the sense that Lewis was the major victim of major incompetency at the FIA.
Fully agree on what you say about the last minute change of direction.
I didn’t mean for one race only, I mean tin general to me as a casual observer that the safety rarely benefits the leader?
This is where I’m at. If he let all cars unlap themselves and decided to go against rules and bring the safety car in on the same lap to create the shoot off I could sort of get that - track was now safe so spirit of rules are followed, safety cars happen, Lewis was just ridiculously unlucky and he didn’t want it to end under safety car. But to not let sainz also have the chance to cosy up behind Max is just ridiculous and I still genuinely can’t believe that happened. And anyone saying Sainz was on old tyres anyway is so completely missing the fecking point of sport I have no words.
I'm more upset about what happened the more time passes.
Allowing just some cars through just to get Max on new tyres alongside Lewis while he's sat there on very old tyres is just gifting championship win after all the hard work was done. Max qualified almost 4 tenths faster yet Lewis did incredible to keep the speed and maintain the tyres. Red Bull and Max didn't have answer and were well beaten, it was settled on track absolfeckinglutley until this Masi intervenes for a completely one sided final lap showdown that completely undermines everything and the whole brilliant comeback Merc have done in the last quarter of the season, it was fairly won by Lewis. Merc are also basing their decision to not pit Lewis that the whole field needs to be sorted and this will end under a safety car so if they pit and Max stays out they just hand over the lead and championship, they're simply not expecting some pillock director to fast track just a few drivers on the request of Red Bull.
Max is also flat spotting his tyes in quali yet gets rewarded for that and being 11 seconds off the lead with a free shot.
Finishing under the safety car in fine, the whole spectacle and the Max vs Lewis showdown happened, Lewis did the job, had he strolled over the line 11 seconds ahead or under the safety car shouldn't matter. Red Bull couldn't achieve any grandstand finish, they were nowhere. The fact that it went to the last race in very rare and good enough, they also had some racing between them.
Maybe for 2022 we should forget the races, lets have Lewis on 30/40 lap old tyres and Max on a fresh set and just have one lap shootouts at each track, that sounds like a great fair sporting event.
A farce and robbery. I expect the title to be always be with a heavy asterisk, with jokes and jibes never ending relating to just how farcical it was handed away like that.
Allowing just some cars through just to get Max on new tyres alongside Lewis while he's sat there on very old tyres is just gifting championship win after all the hard work was done. Max qualified almost 4 tenths faster yet Lewis did incredible to keep the speed and maintain the tyres. Red Bull and Max didn't have answer and were well beaten, it was settled on track absolfeckinglutley until this Masi intervenes for a completely one sided final lap showdown that completely undermines everything and the whole brilliant comeback Merc have done in the last quarter of the season, it was fairly won by Lewis. Merc are also basing their decision to not pit Lewis that the whole field needs to be sorted and this will end under a safety car so if they pit and Max stays out they just hand over the lead and championship, they're simply not expecting some pillock director to fast track just a few drivers on the request of Red Bull.
Max is also flat spotting his tyes in quali yet gets rewarded for that and being 11 seconds off the lead with a free shot.
Finishing under the safety car in fine, the whole spectacle and the Max vs Lewis showdown happened, Lewis did the job, had he strolled over the line 11 seconds ahead or under the safety car shouldn't matter. Red Bull couldn't achieve any grandstand finish, they were nowhere. The fact that it went to the last race in very rare and good enough, they also had some racing between them.
Maybe for 2022 we should forget the races, lets have Lewis on 30/40 lap old tyres and Max on a fresh set and just have one lap shootouts at each track, that sounds like a great fair sporting event.
A farce and robbery. I expect the title to be always be with a heavy asterisk, with jokes and jibes never ending relating to just how farcical it was handed away like that.
I'm now starting to wonder if the whole 'exciting' season was fixed by Masi for the contenders to have roughly equal points on the last race, to draw in record numbers of viewers. Handing out penalties at key moments, letting things go at other key moments....
Ugh, can of worms.
Ugh, can of worms.