F1 2021 Season

Zlatan 7 said:
Ive seen quite a few people happy with the final lap ‘race’ where max showed he was better driver.

Comes a point where you just have to accept it for the entertainment show that it is
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I do, I gave up on it being a sport a long time ago.

This is short term gain for no long term benefits only more harm. The people who found this interesting thanks the the 10-sec penalty, then the hype, then the finish will be bored to tears after 10-mins of the build up in the very first race of next season, let alone when they realise it's not actually sports entertainment but a boring procession.

The way to make F1 interesting ever again is wheel to wheel racing. But with actual proper racing and entertainment, not scripted finales like this. Wrestling is fun and all, but at least people know that's just an athletic Eastenders. F1 still pretends to be a sport, and as such it's held to a higher standard of fairness. Sure the money disparity is a thing and sure it's corrupt as feck, but on the track should be talent vs talent and set rules.

Max fans might rejoice right now, but if he's even ever close to the domination of Lewis, wait until he gets fecked over to suit the newcomer and see just how much they think it's fair :lol:
 
As it's been a slow WFH day, I thought I would watch the final laps again, as it was all such a blur on the day and I wanted to rewatch the incident and each key scene. For anyone interested in reading the moments and communications between drivers, teams and FIA...


Lap 53: Latifi crashes, safety car out. Gap was 12 seconds with 5 laps to go, where average time lost to pit stop during SC pace is 14 seconds.

Lap 54: Max pits, Lewis stays out. Leaves 5 cars in between Hamilton and Max.

Lap 55: Brundle and Crofty discuss the unlapping scenario:

Brundle: will they let the unlapped cars through?
Crofty: they always let the unlapped cars through
Brundle: but that would extend the safety car period?
Crofty: thats what they always do, so they dont let the unlapped runners interfere with play.

Hamilton discusses with engineering team about situation, that Max has pitted with fresh tyres, and that they have to bunch all the cars together, and sort out the order which will take a while and race is unlikely to restart. Engineer clearly states that track position would have been lost had they pitted. Crofty also confirms that if he pitted and Max stayed out, then Max would win should the SC not come in and race finished behind it.

Near end of lap 55: Hamilton saying SC car was not going quick enough, slower than typical pace. Latifi's car is being towed off.

Lap 56: FIA announce lapped cars will not overtake. Brundle says it's not mandatory in regulations to unlap the cars, and leaves Max with a lot of work to do.

RB relay the message to Max, his response is :of course, typical decision. engineer response is: it's classic!

lap 57: Brundle reiterates it's not mandatory to let the lapped cars through, so they may do. however, if they did so then there would be no racing laps left.

Beginning of the lap, Horner to Masi:

Horner: why arent we getting these lapped cars out of the way
Masi (sums the guy up in this response) after bumbling for a few seconds: Christian, just give me a second. My main big one is to get this incident clear.
Horner: you only need one racing lap.

Halfway through lap: 5 cars only are ordered to go through, and SC is quickly ended. Toto with Masi: Michael, Michael..!!. Michael this isn't right.

After the race, Toto to Masi:

Michael you have to reinstate the lap.

Masi: Toto, it's called a a motor race ok?

Toto: sorry?

Masi: It's called car racing.



I think Brundle and Crofty were sure the race would either be done with the lapped cars still in position, or under the safety car due to no time left to unlap everyone. This was not the normal race in a calendar, and should have been treated equally in terms of the rules.
 
Red Shorts said:
As it's been a slow WFH day, I thought I would watch the final laps again, as it was all such a blur on the day and I wanted to rewatch the incident and each key scene. For anyone interested in reading the moments and communications between drivers, teams and FIA...


Lap 53: Latifi crashes, safety car out. Gap was 12 seconds with 5 laps to go, where average time lost to pit stop during SC pace is 14 seconds.

Lap 54: Max pits, Lewis stays out. Leaves 5 cars in between Hamilton and Max.

Lap 55: Brundle and Crofty discuss the unlapping scenario:

Brundle: will they let the unlapped cars through?
Crofty: they always let the unlapped cars through
Brundle: but that would extend the safety car period?
Crofty: thats what they always do, so they dont let the unlapped runners interfere with play.

Hamilton discusses with engineering team about situation, that Max has pitted with fresh tyres, and that they have to bunch all the cars together, and sort out the order which will take a while and race is unlikely to restart. Engineer clearly states that track position would have been lost had they pitted. Crofty also confirms that if he pitted and Max stayed out, then Max would win should the SC not come in and race finished behind it.

Near end of lap 55: Hamilton saying SC car was not going quick enough, slower than typical pace. Latifi's car is being towed off.

Lap 56: FIA announce lapped cars will not overtake. Brundle says it's not mandatory in regulations to unlap the cars, and leaves Max with a lot of work to do.

RB relay the message to Max, his response is :of course, typical decision. engineer response is: it's classic!

lap 57: Brundle reiterates it's not mandatory to let the lapped cars through, so they may do. however, if they did so then there would be no racing laps left.

Beginning of the lap, Horner to Masi:

Horner: why arent we getting these lapped cars out of the way
Masi (sums the guy up in this response) after bumbling for a few seconds: Christian, just give me a second. My main big one is to get this incident clear.
Horner: you only need one racing lap.

Halfway through lap: 5 cars only are ordered to go through, and SC is quickly ended. Toto with Masi: Michael, Michael..!!. Michael this isn't right.

After the race, Toto to Masi:

Michael you have to reinstate the lap.

Masi: Toto, it's called a a motor race ok?

Toto: sorry?

Masi: It's called car racing.



I think Brundle and Crofty were sure the race would either be done with the lapped cars still in position, or under the safety car due to no time left to unlap everyone. This was not the normal race in a calendar, and should have been treated equally in terms of the rules.
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Catastrophically poor by Masi.
 
Not sure why people are entertaining some of the Verstappen supporters here. They sound like clones of Max & Horner.

It would be easy for them to say that Max was fortunate to win that final race, but that pretty much every poster here acknowledges he did deserve to win based on the season overall. I havent seen that said very often since Sunday, but rather just WUMming which reflects poorly on themselves.
 
nokillingmoths said:
Really get the impression Lewis is weighing up remaining in the sport. He was incredibly classy Sunday after the race but its rare for him to be silent for this long. Especially after a race weekend. Can imagine the way the race played out has made him question whether it's worth continuing as it certainly felt like the fia chose max on the last lap. His comment in the post race interview suggest he is thinking about it too depending on how you interpret it.
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I totally agree and think so too. How can he ever go into next season with a clear mind for racing after what happened? And if you are not in a clear mind for racing, it's bloody dangerous for your life!

It's better to call it quits rather than get into some ridiculous accident and lose a limb or something.
 
spiriticon said:
It's funny. I've been trying to forget this for days but there's something so fundamentally wrong about this that I can't. It's wierd.

It has actually bothered me more than say Nani's red card vs Madrid, or Scholesy disallowed goal vs Porto in the CL for example. I forgot about those within a day.

And I'm definitely a more passionate United supporter than either Lewis or Max.

It creeps under the skin.
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Let me help...

Lewis is a gooner?
 
Just a thought that I had, and I'll defer to those who know more about F1 and the 'behind-the-scenes processes' than I do...

Could it be at all possible that Michael Masi had somehow missed that Verstappen was running the newer, soft compound tyres and that Lewis was on 30+ lap old hard tyres?

Obviously to us all watching the Sky Sports/Channel 4 coverage, this was made abundantly clear over and over again, and we saw it unfolding lap-by-lap with our own eyes...but would Masi be watching the same pictures/coverage? What view of the race would he get?

I suppose what I am getting at is that COULD it be possible that Masi DID intend to manipulate the race to put Max behind Lewis but have OVERLOOKED the fact that it would be a non-contest, since Max had a huge tyre advantage?

In that scenario, Masi might have thought 'this will be great for a bit of drama, but Lewis is quicker (had been all race) and should hold-on. Did he realise he was handing the race to Max by positioning him behind Hamilton, and then have an "oh s**t" moment when he realised the true reality of what he had done?

This would also explain, to some extent, the 'it's a motor race' comment...because we all felt that was completely misguided/inflammatory given they weren't racing on an equal footing at that point. Perhaps Masi hadn't understood the discrepancy in tyre degradation/compound

Now, as I said earlier, I am happy to be told this is unlikely/improbable...it's just a theory I have to maybe explain why Masi ended up so blatantly handing Max the race....maybe he had just been following their duel in/out whilst doing his general duties, and thought Lewis would 95% likely hold Max off?
 
spiriticon said:
It's funny. I've been trying to forget this for days but there's something so fundamentally wrong about this that I can't. It's wierd.

It has actually bothered me more than say Nani's red card vs Madrid, or Scholesy disallowed goal vs Porto in the CL for example. I forgot about those within a day.

And I'm definitely a more passionate United supporter than either Lewis or Max.

It creeps under the skin.
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I 100% agree with this. I prefer Hamilton but I really couldn't give a monkeys under normal circumstances. I just hate blatant cheating/manipulation in any way, shape or form and am just absolutely gutted for Hamilton, having to take a clear shafting like that after such an epic comeback in-front of the entire World.
 
Lentwood said:
Just a thought that I had, and I'll defer to those who know more about F1 and the 'behind-the-scenes processes' than I do...

Could it be at all possible that Michael Masi had somehow missed that Verstappen was running the newer, soft compound tyres and that Lewis was on 30+ lap old hard tyres?

Obviously to us all watching the Sky Sports/Channel 4 coverage, this was made abundantly clear over and over again, and we saw it unfolding lap-by-lap with our own eyes...but would Masi be watching the same pictures/coverage? What view of the race would he get?

I suppose what I am getting at is that COULD it be possible that Masi DID intend to manipulate the race to put Max behind Lewis but have OVERLOOKED the fact that it would be a non-contest, since Max had a huge tyre advantage?

In that scenario, Masi might have thought 'this will be great for a bit of drama, but Lewis is quicker (had been all race) and should hold-on. Did he realise he was handing the race to Max by positioning him behind Hamilton, and then have an "oh s**t" moment when he realised the true reality of what he had done?

Now, as I said earlier, I am happy to be told this is unlikely/improbable...it's just a theory I have to maybe explain why Masi ended up so blatantly handing Max the race....maybe he had just been following their duel in/out whilst doing his general duties, and thought Lewis would 95% likely hold Max off?
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I don't see any scenario how he could have missed it personally. They're watching the race live just like we do, but with even more camera angles and data.

He wouldn't be a very good race director if he wasn't following the race.

IMO, he was ordered by people above him to make sure it was an exciting ending to the season. They didn't care who won, if anything having Max usher them into a new 'era' of F1 is exactly what they wanted.
 
laughtersassassin said:
This guy gets it. It was a contentious decision. Even a bad one. But there was plenty of other of those decisions in other races

Some of which gained Lewis points and some which didn't. All races are worth the same. Can't compare it to a final in a football match.
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Completely misses the point. A 'contentious decision' is a marginal call based on an interpretation of the rules.

For example, 'contentious' is Utd being 2-0 up against City and the referee/linesman missing two offside goals to level the score.

What happened here was a misrepresentation/re-writing of the rules to create drama.

For example, United being 2-0 against City and PGMOL instructing the referee to disregard the offside rule and let City have the goals to create drama
 
Adam-Utd said:
I don't see any scenario how he could have missed it personally. They're watching the race live just like we do, but with even more camera angles and data.

He wouldn't be a very good race director if he wasn't following the race.

IMO, he was ordered by people above him to make sure it was an exciting ending to the season. They didn't care who won, if anything having Max usher them into a new 'era' of F1 is exactly what they wanted.
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Fair enough, as I said, it was just a theory that occurred to me to try and rationalise some of the bizarre decision-making. You don't think he could have forgotten, in the heat of the moment, with everybody shouting at him, that Max had pitted again under the safety car?

Plus, we know he isn't a very good race director :lol:
 
Lentwood said:
Completely misses the point. A 'contentious decision' is a marginal call based on an interpretation of the rules.

For example, 'contentious' is Utd being 2-0 up against City and the referee/linesman missing two offside goals to level the score.

What happened here was a misrepresentation/re-writing of the rules to create drama.

For example, United being 2-0 against City and PGMOL instructing the referee to disregard the offside rule and let City have the goals to create drama
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You are wasting your time trying to explain it to these people :lol:
 
Sainz recently said the situation was unfair because it could have compromised his podium.

Makes a valid point, Masi didnt really give a shit about the rest of the field and the impact it made on them.
 
laughtersassassin said:
Your are incorrect. All race are worth the same points. So a contentious decision in the first race is the same as one in the last in the grand scheme of things.
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I think am absolutely correct based on your original post.
"Max had more Laps led than Lewis and the entire rest of the grid put together. He deserved the championship over the season"
I believe that you are basically saying that it was justified for officials to manipulate the result in the final race, because Max deserved the title over the season, because he had more poles, faster laps etc?
I'm sorry if I misunderstand you, but that seems to be the point you were trying to make, which is why I used an analogy of the FA Cup being awarded to the best team of the whole competition to show how wrong that practise would be.

In a sporting context, it can never ever be justified for officials to manipulate a result, not in any genuine sport, whether that be Football, Boxing, Golf, Tennis, or Tiddlywinks, otherwise you just end up with entertainment and drama, but it has no sporting integrity or merit.

That for me, is how the weekend's result feels, without sporting integrity, just manipulated drama.
 
Doracle said:
Yeah, this was really weird to me. Max’s attempted overtake on lap 1 was a desperate lunge which obviously should be penalised (or at best not rewarded). We seem to now be in a position where he’s been doing this “yield or we crash” approach for so long that it’s been normalised. Hopefully they’ll somehow start to clamp down on him now he’s got a world title.
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laughtersassassin said:
The correct thing to do is let the unlapped cars through. He just hesitated. There was a window to let them through and the result would have been the exact same as it ended up.

He also could have red flagged.

He also could have ended under saftey car

And that right there is F1s problem. All 3 are acceptable and legal options.
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That's the only thing. Why did Masi not let all the cars unlap themselves a lap before? He could have done that as Latifi's car was being towed away. The result would have been the same and there would have been no controversy. Just people calling out how it's bad luck for Hamilton.

However he hesitated and that's where he fecked up. He would have then had to:
a. End the race behind the SC, which would have been a very poor spectacle and something very rare to be pulled off in such a situation.
b. Keep the unlapped cars in place, which again would have had the other set of fans miffed (not on here as the posters on here would be fine with it :p) and another rule being challenged.

So he basically fecks up and just allows the cars between the first two move out of the way as there was not enough time for the others to unlap and the race to be restarted safely.

Poor decision but I think it came from hesitation and incompetence rather than some sort of conspiracy or wanting an exciting finish.
 
Lentwood said:
Just a thought that I had, and I'll defer to those who know more about F1 and the 'behind-the-scenes processes' than I do...

Could it be at all possible that Michael Masi had somehow missed that Verstappen was running the newer, soft compound tyres and that Lewis was on 30+ lap old hard tyres?

Obviously to us all watching the Sky Sports/Channel 4 coverage, this was made abundantly clear over and over again, and we saw it unfolding lap-by-lap with our own eyes...but would Masi be watching the same pictures/coverage? What view of the race would he get?

I suppose what I am getting at is that COULD it be possible that Masi DID intend to manipulate the race to put Max behind Lewis but have OVERLOOKED the fact that it would be a non-contest, since Max had a huge tyre advantage?

In that scenario, Masi might have thought 'this will be great for a bit of drama, but Lewis is quicker (had been all race) and should hold-on. Did he realise he was handing the race to Max by positioning him behind Hamilton, and then have an "oh s**t" moment when he realised the true reality of what he had done?

This would also explain, to some extent, the 'it's a motor race' comment...because we all felt that was completely misguided/inflammatory given they weren't racing on an equal footing at that point. Perhaps Masi hadn't understood the discrepancy in tyre degradation/compound

Now, as I said earlier, I am happy to be told this is unlikely/improbable...it's just a theory I have to maybe explain why Masi ended up so blatantly handing Max the race....maybe he had just been following their duel in/out whilst doing his general duties, and thought Lewis would 95% likely hold Max off?
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FIA wanted a Max victory because they need a new champion and a non-Mercedes WDC winner. Mercedes basically swept all the awards in the current regulations.
 
Buster15 said:
https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/1...eciding-race-was-manipulated-in-radio-message

And he was of course 100% correct.
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If this was the old days there wouldn't even be much debate. It's only that Max and his energy drink have brought in the crowd from their other energy drink events and suddenly we have loads of interest from people with no clue.

I've long been a Hamilton admirer, but not a proper fan. But this doesn't feel Hamilton vs. Max anymore. It's motorsport vs. netflix.
 
NK86 said:
However he hesitated and that's where he fecked up. He would have then had to:
a. End the race behind the SC, which would have been a very poor spectacle and something very rare to be pulled off in such a situation.
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This is the sort of thinking that has led to this disaster. It's a sport, not a soap opera. When football teams keep the ball at the corner flag with 5 minutes to go, it's not a spectacle either, but we understand because it's a competition.

NK86 said:
b. Keep the unlapped cars in place, which again would have had the other set of fans miffed (not on here as the posters on here would be fine with it :p) and another rule being challenged.
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The rules do allow for the unlapped cars to stay in place. It's all or nothing, not '5 cars only'
 
Ikon said:
I think am absolutely correct based on your original post.
"Max had more Laps led than Lewis and the entire rest of the grid put together. He deserved the championship over the season"
I believe that you are basically saying that it was justified for officials to manipulate the result in the final race, because Max deserved the title over the season, because he had more poles, faster laps etc?
I'm sorry if I misunderstand you, but that seems to be the point you were trying to make, which is why I used an analogy of the FA Cup being awarded to the best team of the whole competition to show how wrong that practise would be.

In a sporting context, it can never ever be justified for officials to manipulate a result, not in any genuine sport, whether that be Football, Boxing, Golf, Tennis, or Tiddlywinks, otherwise you just end up with entertainment and drama, but it has no sporting integrity or merit.

That for me, is how the weekend's result feels, without sporting integrity, just manipulated drama.
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Not what I'm saying at all.
 
NK86 said:
That's the only thing. Why did Masi not let all the cars unlap themselves a lap before? He could have done that as Latifi's car was being towed away. The result would have been the same and there would have been no controversy. Just people calling out how it's bad luck for Hamilton.

However he hesitated and that's where he fecked up. He would have then had to:
a. End the race behind the SC, which would have been a very poor spectacle and something very rare to be pulled off in such a situation.
b. Keep the unlapped cars in place, which again would have had the other set of fans miffed (not on here as the posters on here would be fine with it :p) and another rule being challenged.

So he basically fecks up and just allows the cars between the first two move out of the way as there was not enough time for the others to unlap and the race to be restarted safely.

Poor decision but I think it came from hesitation and incompetence rather than some sort of conspiracy or wanting an exciting finish.
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Yes it came from him hesitating and panicking.

Also Toto and Horner where both screaming in his ear. They should not be allowed to talk to him at all really.
 
spiriticon said:
This is the sort of thinking that has led to this disaster. It's a sport, not a soap opera. When football teams keep the ball at the corner flag with 5 minutes to go, it's not a spectacle either, but we understand because it's a competition.



The rules do allow for the unlapped cars to stay in place. It's all or nothing, not '5 cars only'
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In fairness blame the teams for that as they have asked for races to be finished under green flag conditions whenever possible.

Damon Hill who is massively bias towards Lewis even confirmed that the teams have been asking for races to not finish under a saftey car.
 
laughtersassassin said:
In fairness blame the teams for that as they have asked for races to be finished under green flag conditions whenever possible.

Damon Hill who is massively bias towards Lewis even confirmed that the teams have been asking for races to not finish under a saftey car.
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'Whenever possible', yes. When not possible, don't artificially contrive a possibility.

That's not the race director's job.
 
Lentwood said:
Fair enough, as I said, it was just a theory that occurred to me to try and rationalise some of the bizarre decision-making. You don't think he could have forgotten, in the heat of the moment, with everybody shouting at him, that Max had pitted again under the safety car?

Plus, we know he isn't a very good race director :lol:
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I guess anything is possible, he did have Horner and Wolff screaming in his ears so maybe at that moment he forgot what was actually happening.

He's not alone in their though, he's got plenty of other stewards that should be able to help and point these things out.

IMO they'd build it up to be this grand finale between the 2 mighty warriors of the sport, and they didn't want it to end with an anti climax.

They decided to just say feck it, lets have a last lap mega shootout and whoever wins wins. Unfortunately the cards were massively stacked against Lewis.

Max still had to pull it off obviously, but he's far too good to not let an opportunity like that pass up.
 
spiriticon said:
So...what does that mean? It was possible, so he fecked it up and it became not possible, so he fiddled with the rules to make it possible again?

Yeah, It doesn't look good on him.
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I'm saying Massi fecked up the decision. Never said it looked good for him.

He has done it all season it cost them all points at one stage or another.

Even go back to last race and if Massi wasnt being influenced by the title race it's quite likely LEWIS would have had third reprimand with a 10 place grid drop and Max would have probably got a grid drop himself.

F1 has a good few problems. The rules are not clear cut, not even in this case since they DO allow the director to overrule. They also allow for 3 other outcomes than what happened at the race directors discretion. It's anything but clear.

The people in charge are also very often influenced by media, the season and team principals etc etc.

F1 rules do need a rewrite to be a whole lot less subjective wherever possible. Probably could do with gravel traps or something as well to stop advantages using run offs being exploited.
 
hobbers said:
In practice though CAS has never ruled on the outcome of a sporting event. Or even on the quality of the officiating of a sporting event.

Most sporting bodies I would imagine have certain provisions that mean they get the final say on those issues. Bad officiating in all sports is inevitable and many championships have been decided by bad decisions, but they have never ended up in front of CAS.
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Not a 'bad decision' as such though is it, it's a genuine breach of the rules. As I said in a post earlier, it's not about who we want to win or believe deserved to win, or even sporting integrity, to an extent. This goes much deeper. What about suppliers, who might have win incentives/bonuses? Commercial partners, who might pay more/less to sponsor the F1 champion(s)? Employees in-line to receive win bonuses? Mercedes might claim loss of earnings for next year, through not being able to market Lewis as the champion etc...

You are right, it's not the job of CAS to comment on the quality of the officiating, however, in this scenario, the rules were clearly not followed, precedents were not followed, and that has led to what many believe is a contrived result and loss of earnings/prize money

Regardless of whether it ends up in CAS, I think it certainly ends up in-front of a judge somewhere. I'd even be interested to know whether Masi himself could be sued/personally liable?
 
laughtersassassin said:
I'm saying Massi fecked up the decision. Never said it looked good for him.

He has done it all season it cost them all points at one stage or another.

Even go back to last race and if Massi wasnt being influenced by the title race it's quite likely LEWIS would have had third reprimand with a 10 place grid drop and Max would have probably got a grid drop himself.

F1 has a good few problems. The rules are not clear cut, not even in this case since they DO allow the director to overrule.

The people in charge are also very often influenced by media, team principals etc etc.

F1 rules do need a rewrite to be a whole lot less subjective wherever possible. Probably could do with gravel traps or something as well to stop advantages using run offs being exploited.
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I don't really care whether Lewis deserves this penalty or Max deserves that penalty, because I'm starting to think it was possibly all fudged anyway (my own opinion). At the end it was equal points going into the last race and Masi fecked up in the last 5 laps (now twice as indicated by you) to fudge the end of the race and decide the champion in the worst way ever.

I only take issue with you saying blame the teams, not Masi.

No, I blame Masi for everything.
 
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This season was a bit like Game of Thrones. Started well and peaked in the early to mid races/seasons. Jumped the shark a bit towards the end as the showrunners forgot what made it great in the first place and lost the run of themselves a bit.

Completely shat the bed in the last race/season. Viewers were left with a bad taste in their mouths and the whole thing will be remembered as a bit of a joke.
 
Redlambs said:
I read that as he's saying those people think Max was the better driver, not necessarily himself.
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Don’t know if you’ve noticed but we now have posters who have never made a post coming on here telling us all types of sh!te after watching one F1 race. No time for them.
 
rimaldo said:
yeah, it’s sportsmanship. a foreign concept, i know.
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Well something is congratulating and something else is saying "u deserve it".
And most of the people in this thread don't share this opinion with the team principal of Mercedes, which is really sad, for them.
 
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