Well tbf, it's like searching for his wages since she is a signing on bonus for getting the red bull seat.
F1 2021 Season
- Thread starter pauldyson1uk
- Start date
Talk about great seats to witness sporting history for the few thousand folks that sat around that turn.
Hamilton was done in by the Dodgy official. He has done dodgy decisions before and should be sacked.
Its not, I agree that Merc should pursue it. This is a very balanced post btw.
Masi needs to go. Assuming he as an individual is the problem and not the wider group who manage F1.
At this stage no matter the outcome it is tainted. If they take it off Max and give to Hamilton no one would be celebrating. If they leave it with Max everyone knows it is incorrect. It's a no win situation for the sport.
Out of interest, how do you think Max is statistically the best driver?
Don’t watch F1 but curious about the controversy. This is my understanding if someone could confirm or correct please.
hamilton was 11 or so seconds ahead of Max. He had also lapped the last 8 cars, and Max had lapped 3, so 5 were in between him and Max (sorry if numbers are wrong). At this point someone else crashed so they send out the safety car. While the safety car is out no one is allowed to overtake anyone, you all just proceed through the course in order.
while the safety car was out, Max’s team, red bull, called him in to get new, soft, tires. I’m guessing soft tires are like sprinting tires? Mercedes did not call Hamilton in, hoping to preserve his position.
At this point, the expectation was that the lapped cars, all 8, could “unlap” (I guess this means to overtake Hamilton and the safety car) and then the safety car exits. The concern for this is that it would take up so much time that it basically ends the race as max can’t catch Hamilton. Which sucks as a spectacle but I guess Hamilton earned that lead too over the course of the race.
then, this Mesi guy decides that for better TV and have the end of the race be…a race, will just have the 5 lapped cars in between Hamilton and Max unlap, and not the other 3. This would take up less time meaning Max has a shot still. It also had the benefit to Max of clearing out the track in between him and Hamilton (and he doesn’t have to navigate passing 5 cars) although if lapped cars always unlap, that second part doesn’t seem so controversial, more just annoying for Hamilton that the guys he had to pass aren’t “protecting” him in the same way as Max doesn’t have to deal with them.
when this decision was made, did Hamilton have time to get new tires? Without hindsight how unusual a decision was it for Mercedes not to change his tires before the decision was made
once that was all done, the cars had been bunched (the point of a safety car) and the 5 obstacles in between were gone. Max with newer tires and closer to Hamilton had a huge advantage in the final lap and won.
the powers that he have said that Mesi had the discretion to make this decision so he was allowed to. Is there precedent for similar decisions being made?
I hope my interpretation is correct and if anyone could answer the few questions I have that would be great.
hamilton was 11 or so seconds ahead of Max. He had also lapped the last 8 cars, and Max had lapped 3, so 5 were in between him and Max (sorry if numbers are wrong). At this point someone else crashed so they send out the safety car. While the safety car is out no one is allowed to overtake anyone, you all just proceed through the course in order.
while the safety car was out, Max’s team, red bull, called him in to get new, soft, tires. I’m guessing soft tires are like sprinting tires? Mercedes did not call Hamilton in, hoping to preserve his position.
At this point, the expectation was that the lapped cars, all 8, could “unlap” (I guess this means to overtake Hamilton and the safety car) and then the safety car exits. The concern for this is that it would take up so much time that it basically ends the race as max can’t catch Hamilton. Which sucks as a spectacle but I guess Hamilton earned that lead too over the course of the race.
then, this Mesi guy decides that for better TV and have the end of the race be…a race, will just have the 5 lapped cars in between Hamilton and Max unlap, and not the other 3. This would take up less time meaning Max has a shot still. It also had the benefit to Max of clearing out the track in between him and Hamilton (and he doesn’t have to navigate passing 5 cars) although if lapped cars always unlap, that second part doesn’t seem so controversial, more just annoying for Hamilton that the guys he had to pass aren’t “protecting” him in the same way as Max doesn’t have to deal with them.
when this decision was made, did Hamilton have time to get new tires? Without hindsight how unusual a decision was it for Mercedes not to change his tires before the decision was made
once that was all done, the cars had been bunched (the point of a safety car) and the 5 obstacles in between were gone. Max with newer tires and closer to Hamilton had a huge advantage in the final lap and won.
the powers that he have said that Mesi had the discretion to make this decision so he was allowed to. Is there precedent for similar decisions being made?
I hope my interpretation is correct and if anyone could answer the few questions I have that would be great.
I’m genuinely less concerned about the outcome of this year now. I just really want a competent race director and a proper clear picture on the rules and protocols. I just don’t want to see this type of thing happen again - it’s Hamilton who got the short end of the stick this time around, it could be anyone next time. I just don’t want there to be a next time.
“Best” out right is a stretch I think. I would prefer it to be “one of the best”. But if you are talking best driver RIGHT NOW, VS who is the best driver overall (i.E not thinking about careers to date and just current position) it’s just not an unreasonable opinion even for an unbiased objective person. He’s done remarkably well this year. He’s been consistent. He’s delivered the most poles and most race wins (even if you negate Spa and Abu Dhabi he isn’t that far behind). He’s not made many mistakes. Yes he’s aggressive but he’s certainly shown he’s one of the best out and out drivers. It’s hard to argue. Saying he’s the best by himself is tough one I think though because guys like Alonso and Hamilton are still on the grid.
Not unusual, if Hamilton had chose to pit when the SC happened (and the team had just about 2 corners at slower speed to decide I think) then in all likelihood Verstappen doesn't pit and Mercedes are left hoping the SC ends, plus Hamilton having to overtake Verstappen without allowing there to be a crash. Late in the race you probably always protect track position.
As for the 2nd part, no precedent for letting just a few lapped cars through. I think Brazil 2019 is precedent for restarting without letting any lapped cars through as it was also late in the race (and to note, the World Championship was decided by then), and in normal proceedings the lapped cars are all let through >99% of the time.
@KirkDuyt , I apologise as obviously have the wrong dutchman. Sorry. Was still "upset" this morning with the decision.
Ouch, I think you kind of misread my post as being cnutish, I was honestly interested since I know feck all about F1 and didn't know the difference between those tires make that much of a difference. And I think quite many of my posts in this thread are me complaining about the Verstappen love-in in our country, because I think he's a twat.
Where did you read my age is 18 by the way? Don't tell my wife
I was talking post race with someone else but to be honest don't want to go back and check as it's done now. But again, apologies
Thank you.
Re the pit stop did RB just take a gamble then? Were they in a position of “might as well go for it and change the tires now, nothing to lose”?
To your second scenario, that would have favoured Hamilton too, right? Letting no lapped cars through would have left some obstacles in the way at least.
Thanks for the clarification.
This is a pretty accurate thought process.
To your questions:
1. It is standard protocol to let lapped cars through. However specifically was unusual, and for which there is no precedent, is both a) only letting some lapped cars through and not all, and b) bringing the safety car in on the same lap as allowing lapped cars to pass. This is supposed to happen per the rules the following lap. So, no precedent. And not in the rules. Whether the race director has the discretion to override the rules is the crux of what the protests and legal challenges will be about.
2. The above contextualises the answer to your second question re: Hamilton and tyre changes. Let’s assume Hamilton comes in to change to softs. Max would most likely stay out and keep track position on his hards. With hindsight, this would have likely ended up with Hamilton winning as he would have the fresher tyres with the way things panned out and done to Max what Max did to Hamilton. But
A) not a forgone conclusion. Max had newer tyres than Hamilton’s so theoretically could have defended harder.
B) Hamilton may have even come out behind Perez. Then he would have had no chance.
C) The race might have finished behind the safety car. In which case Hamilton would have lost as he’d have been behind Verstappen.
Point C is where the first answer comes to play. Mercedes most likely factored in the fact that either no lapped cars would be let through, which would have meant Hamilton would have had cars in between him and Max and likely comfortably cruised him. Or that all lapped cars would have been let through with the safety car coming in the following lap. Given the number of laps left, this expectation would have meant finishing behind the safety car and hence pit stops and tyres would not be relevant.
So I don’t think there is any scenario where Lewis would have pitted, unless they knew instantly at the time that all lapped cars would be let through AND the race would have 1 lap left.
I think the main reason they didn't pit, was because max was on fresh hard tires as he had pit during the VC as well, why didn't Lewis pit then even being behind max after the VC you would of fancied him to coast by him as it was the faster car.
Just cold, worn, hard tyres. He probably had even less grip then he expected.
And Max would have had way more than he would have expected what with next to no fuel in the car and branding spanking new softs.
Yes to the first question. They pitted and came out second. If they didn’t pit they’d still have been in second. So, no risk at all.
And yes to your second point. That would have given Hamilton the space he needed to probably make it home.
True that, it was like a last lap safety car for the win .Feck I just realize I should have engaged head on to take a shot at E fight of the year
It’s an interesting debate. But you could see before the SC, without the SC he’d have cruised home with a comfortable lead. If he had pitted, sure he could have overtaken and perhaps would have protected them against what did eventually happen, but that is a huge gamble that I don’t think any team would take. And the logic is kinda proved out by the “what would have happened” if there was no SC.
Thank you, that is very helpful.
I will pay attention the the CAS proceedings if they do arise. As I said I don’t know much about F1 (my dad watches a lot and is unimpressed by this decision) but I have some arbitration competition experience and education from when I was in law school in Ireland and know someone who worked for CAS in the past, so hopefully I can understand all that
Yes, and they had nothing to lose because they were over 30 seconds clear of the next non-RB car. Being 2nd with that kind of gap gives you more strategic options than the leader as you get to make decisions while also knowing what the leader has decided.
Yes, in the 2nd scenario Max has to somehow clear all of the cars and eat up the time difference of a few seconds due to those cars being in between them. Maybe he could have cleared them all by the first overtaking corner (forgot the turn #) if they were cooperating, but then in terms of closing to Hamilton he'd maybe be on his tail by sector 3, but its impossible to overtake in sector 3.
Are you talking about the VSC when Hamilton stayed out and Verstappen pitted for new hards? I think even with that one the Mercedes engineers will just answer "track position" all day, but I do think they could look to be more proactive in those situations in the future.
Thank you! You are good at explaining things
Thank you to you too. Those specifics do help.
Is sector 3 impossible to overtake in because of the layout of the track?
Pretty much the only way they can go with it that isn't terribly unfair on someone is for Max and Lewis to share the championship, but that could set a dodgy precedent (although it wont be a problem if race directors just follow the rules in future).
Yes. I pulled up the track map and the overtaking points were turns 5, 6 and 9. After turn 9 all the other turns are just about 90 degree turns with no big braking, so F1 cars just follow each other through there and the dirty air means the trailing car can't stay very close. Don't think anyone has ever competitively had an overtake there since F1 has been going to this track.
Impossible, no. Highly improbable, yes. But with the situation (Max on newer tyres, no risk for him to be risky because if they crash Max wins the title by virtue of more wins anyway), I think Max could and probably would have passed him even in sector 3.
Thanks for your thanks by the way
I recon Max could have potentially dive bombed the first right handed before the two lefts under the bridge? I dunno what turn that is. 10? 11? After that right handed I agree, next to impossible. But with the better traction and circumstances as per my post above, it may have happened there if anywhere in that sector.
12 I think... has anyone done it before? I guess turn 9 is entirely new so that means the prior years aren't a good comparison. It would depend if he had approached all the way down the run to 9, then I guess he has to take 9 with one of those really late apex lines to maximize exit and follow through the kinks at 10 and 11... maybe. For sure if he was anywhere in the area he would have dive bombed 12 in that scenario given an accident was to his advantage. Oh the handbags that would have been if they made contact
"then, this Mesi guy decides that for better TV and have the end of the race be…a race, will just have the 5 lapped cars in between Hamilton and Max unlap, and not the other 3."
Pretty much this but blaming that pygmy in the French Farmers league is harsh.
I should charge for this Q&A.
In short, Max lunged down the inside. Hamilton avoided the accident by going off the track taking a shorter route and keeping the lead. Hamilton then reduced speed so Max could catch up and bring the gap to what it was before.
Controversial because in similar situations the guy who goes off the track and takes or retains a position because of it has to yield the place back, not just let the gap close.
Two main arguments: Max had the Inside line because of the lunge. But he kept his car within the track limits so didn’t break any rules. This would support the view Max should have got that place with Hamilton yielding.
Other is that Max left no space for Hamilton and hence Hamilton had no choice but to go wide.
Generally people think the former is the appropriate view. I’d tend to agree.
Edit: worth mentioning in the grand scheme of things I don’t think this incident was that significant.
No worries, this thread gets quite heated, so it was an easy mistake to make
12 I think... has anyone done it before? I guess turn 9 is entirely new so that means the prior years aren't a good comparison. It would depend if he had approached all the way down the run to 9, then I guess he has to take 9 with one of those really late apex lines to maximize exit and follow through the kinks at 10 and 11... maybe. For sure if he was anywhere in the area he would have dive bombed 12 in that scenario given an accident was to his advantage. Oh the handbags that would have been if they made contact
for sure. Yeah can’t really compare to previous seasons because turn 9 is so different and also in previous years no one had any reason to do it there. They could just wait for the next lap and do it on the straight. Or just leave it as it didn’t matter. This whole situation was different. If it was even remotely possible Max would have done it.In my opinion, he out-braked Hamilton but so much/so late, he went from the inside of the bend to the outside and forced Hamilton into taking the crash or going off track. Hamilton went off track, cutting the bend and taking the lead back.. stewards decided he didn't cut the corner deliberately to gain an advantage (he didn't, he was forced to)
I can see this logic too. But for me because Max kept his car in the lines, and because Hamilton could have taken a more direct route back to the track, I’d just about conclude against the stewards decision here. But certainly not black and white - like Brazil for example.
Don't know if it's been mentioned here, maybe it was yesterday. But Hamilton's defending yesterday just wasn't any good, not once in the battles with Verstappen on lap 1 or the last lap, nor when battling with Perez did he ever cover the inside line into corners. I know he was thinking that he couldn't risk a collision but I think he still left the door way too open and that contributed to the Verstappen dive on lap 1 and the last lap.
He looked a bit like me the first time I stepped up in amateur karting to a more experienced and aggressive league. I qualified around the midfield on pace, but about 3 laps in I was fighting at the back as I was trying to drive the optimum line and people just dive bombed in on me corner after corner. Imperfect analogy, but just to reinforce I don't think he once positioned his car in the middle or inside of the braking zone in those critical battles.
He looked a bit like me the first time I stepped up in amateur karting to a more experienced and aggressive league. I qualified around the midfield on pace, but about 3 laps in I was fighting at the back as I was trying to drive the optimum line and people just dive bombed in on me corner after corner. Imperfect analogy, but just to reinforce I don't think he once positioned his car in the middle or inside of the braking zone in those critical battles.
Same feeling here though the counter arguments given are his worn out tires ( at the end ) and avoiding a collision. I would have loved to see a little bit more aggressive defending from Hamilton...
Worn tyres and the knowledge that he needed to leave Verstappen some room as the stewards would never hand him the title after Max cleans him out.
Plus F1 cars have so much grip now they can easily overtake around the outside with the rules as they are. Just covering the inside line is no longer a tactic.
The two Max ones, meh. I don’t think much to fault there. The Perez one, yes, I think he could have done better there?
Here's a comparison between Max, Lewis, Bottas and Perez based on some relatively simple metrics (though the last race isn't factored in yet): https://www.racing-statistics.com/e...lton/sergio-perez/max-verstappen/seasons/2021
Max has the most poles, most wins (though tied if you give Hamilton the last race), best average finish position, best average grid position..
Also, Bottas and Lewis are a lot closer together than Perez and Max. Max has most poles (9 again excluding the last race) but Perez managed none in the same car. Lewis has 5 and Bottas managed 4. That's despite Bottas having a crap season according to most on here. Just something I noticed, make of it what you will.