F1 2021 Season

[Adam-Utd]

See I always thought that was stupid. Great cars are just as memorable as great drivers in F1.

Rules that nerfed cars/engineering brilliance are always stupid in my opinion.

Well it's to keep the competition fair I guess.

If F1 didn't change the rules on the floor this year Mercedes would have won again with ease.

The fact Mercedes took it down to the last race show just how good they are as a team/manufacturer. Compare them to Aston Martin who were pathetic all season, it's a night and day difference.

You can say the rule change worked.

 

[Doracle]

I'm not saying what happened was right or fair. I'm saying the rulebook is probably vague enough for Masi to get away with what he did. Don't believe for a second Mercedes would let this go "for the sake of F1". That's a load of crap.

It’s actually extremely clear (ironically so given the murkiness of F1 rules generally). There’s no doubt whatsoever that Masi got it wrong (ignore the attempt to justify it last night by FIA - any sane reading of the rules makes clear that 48.12 should have been followed and wasn’t).

The real question is what it now means. That’s where Mercedes have difficulty I think. A logical answer would be that positions should be set back to where they were because that’s the outcome which would have occurred had he followed the rules. However, the general consensus on what I’ve seen seems to be that wouldn’t be possible and the best outcome might be that the race is declared null and void - so Max is still champion. If so, any appeal would be rendered somewhat pointless.

 

[Jippy]

I don't think it'll happen, but how so? If it's overturned it would have to be on the basis that the race wasn't held to the regulations F1 gives itself... Hence correcting a made mistake.

If it does go to CAS I think that's the most likely outcome too. Max would keep his title but that race would be voided. However I think Mercedes has more to gain from wringing out concessions for not taking it there.

I just can't think of any parallel circumstance in other sports. I don't see how it doesn't just get written off as a mistake in the heat of the moment, even if it was dodgy as hell.

The bolded would be pointless though from Cas.
It's hard not to think it would be tarnished if Lewis wins it in court.

 

[slyadams]

I don't think it'll happen, but how so? If it's overturned it would have to be on the basis that the race wasn't held to the regulations F1 gives itself... Hence correcting a made mistake.

If it does go to CAS I think that's the most likely outcome too. Max would keep his title but that race would be voided. However I think Mercedes has more to gain from wringing out concessions for not taking it there.

I feel like there will be some arrangement/compromise made. If this goes to CAS then the published regs, the previous statements by Masi, the scope that CAS has all contribute to a massive risk for the FIA. That's a risk they probably won't want to take.

However, I'm not sure what the compromise could be. Voiding the race would be harsh on Sainz and the rest who scored points. Probably the cleanest legal approach is voiding from the infraction on so take the classification on lap 57 (which has some precedent btw). Given that the final lap shouldn't have happened no-one can really complain they lost any gains they made on the final lap. You could throw money at Mercedes, but do Mercedes really need whatever the FIA could give them? Not sure, its messy as hell.

 

[Abizzz]

I just can't think of any parallel circumstance in other sports. I don't see how it doesn't just get written off as a mistake in the heat of the moment, even if it was dodgy as hell.

The bolded would be pointless though from Cas.
It's hard not to think it would be tarnished if Lewis wins it in court.

It would make a statement that the FIA can't just make up rules on the fly. And to be honest, if this stands without any further repercussions and F1's new owners continue to "maximize entertainment" I fail to see how F1 doesn't become a joke.

 

[spiriticon]

It’s actually extremely clear (ironically so given the murkiness of F1 rules generally). There’s no doubt whatsoever that Masi got it wrong (ignore the attempt to justify it last night by FIA - any sane reading of the rules makes clear that 48.12 should have been followed and wasn’t).

The real question is what it now means. That’s where Mercedes have difficulty I think. A logical answer would be that positions should be set back to where they were because that’s the outcome which would have occurred had he followed the rules. However, the general consensus on what I’ve seen seems to be that wouldn’t be possible and the best outcome might be that the race is declared null and void - so Max is still champion. If so, any appeal would be rendered somewhat pointless.

I wonder if they could argue to null and void the laps during and after the lapped cars were allowed to pass. Race ends on what? Lap 55/56? But yeah it's going to be really hard case.

But whoever is the champ really pales in comparison to Masi's future in the sport. The CAS or FIA need to be seen to be strong with him. They cannot back him blindly. I think they can say that a 'deliberate misinterpretation' of the regulations is not, and should not, be in the spirit of the sport

 

[ArjenIsM3]

Then you don't understand any of the implications, or are very gullible. It's as simple as that.

Erm, not really.

I agree, I'm not sure letting a sport get away with what happened yesterday is "for the good of the sport". There's a saying "light is the best disinfectant". If this gets swept under the carpet, everyone moves on, Masi is back next year and nothing really changes how can that be good for the sport. Either the FIA have to sort this out or someone has to force them to sort it out.

Imagine if Calciopoli had been discussed behind closed doors, swept away, all the clubs involved given a fine and everything carried on as before. That would have been the opposite of "good for the sport". Now to be clear, I'm not saying Masi was corrupt, i'm saying he was incompetant. The resultant action has to be the same though: clean it up.

If Merc truly care about the sport and if it truly is as clear cut as most on here are saying then how is letting Masi get away with it good for F1? I agree he's incompetent. He's proven that time and time again and he should go. I mean, it would suck for Max, he didn't do anything wrong and had an amazing season (statistically the best driver I believe), and it would be cruel being crowned champion and letting him celebrate it only to then have it taken away in court weeks/months later for something he had no control over, but in the long run it would probably be better for the sport.

 

[Jippy]

It would make a statement that the FIA can't just make up rules on the fly. And to be honest, if this stands without any further repercussions and F1's new owners continue to "maximize entertainment" I fail to see how F1 doesn't become a joke.

Yeah, that's why the Masi's head rolling theory several have said sounds the least worst get out for the FIA. They have to stamp out interfering with races for TV ratings- the Netflixization of the sport.

 

[Ayush_reddevil]

I wonder if they could argue to null and void the laps during and after the lapped cars were allowed to pass. Race ends on what? Lap 55/56? But yeah it's going to be really hard case.

But whoever is the champ really pales in comparison to Masi's future in the sport. The CAS or FIA need to be seen to be strong with him. They cannot back him blindly. I think they can say that a 'deliberate misinterpretation' of the regulations is not, and should not, be in the spirit of the sport

Again I have said it a few times in this thread but his answer that this is motor racing is pretty much reason enough for him to be sacked

 

[groovyalbert]

I wonder if they could argue to null and void the laps during and after the lapped cars were allowed to pass. Race ends on what? Lap 55/56? But yeah it's going to be really hard case.

But whoever is the champ really pales in comparison to Masi's future in the sport. The CAS or FIA need to be seen to be strong with him. They cannot back him blindly.

This is the thing, even if you do conclude the decision to let Max and Lewis have a one lap head-to-head was (understandably) a farce and nonsensical, at what point in the race do you turn back to? Do you just assume there was a safety car all the way to the end? That would be completely unfair on Red Bull who could have gotten close to Lewis with a lap or so of normal racing following the safety car.

Do you just run the whole thing again? Do you just pretend it never happened and discount the race result? Do you null the championship? It's impossible to find a fair solution, especially when you take into consideration other teams too - I mean, how Sainz almost got pipped to 3rd by Tsunoda is almost as appalling as the Max/Lewis incident.

This whole thing is just such a feck up by the FIA that all the work Lewis/Max have done to get viewers interested in F1 is completely coloured. This is not the debate that should be happening.

The fairest decision on the day would have been to just have a SC stay out until the end. You would have ended up with the closest thing to a "natural" race result that looked to be on the cards, albeit a damp squib of an ending. Yesterday felt like watching WWE.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Remember when people laughed when I said Sainz would rival Leclerc this year? he's done a fine job in that Ferrari.

If they can get a strong car next year they could be a challenge in the constructors.

 

[MTF]

Masi's head will probably roll but Merc hardly came out of yesterday smelling of roses. Toto whining on the headset to Masi at every opportunity. Demanding Masi not bring out a safety car when the VSC was out and they were clearing Giovinazzi's car from the run-off was a really bad look. Like they said on commentary, Masi's job is safety of the marshals and drivers first and foremost and Toto couldn't give a feck.

And they brought the biggest sleaze ball lawyer they could find to the track with them.

On a serious note, I do think that they should implement a rule where only the assigned Sporting Directors of each team or equivalent are the ones that communicate with the Race Director. Both Merc and Red Bull had fairly reasonable sounding guys in that role this season, that handled most of the comms. When Horner or Toto got on the comms it was usually just for a whine and nothing of substance. Who remembers the "I've sent you an email" episode also?

 

[spiriticon]

This is the thing, even if you do conclude the decision to let Max and Lewis have a one lap head-to-head was (understandably) a farce and nonsensical, at what point in the race do you turn back to? Do you just assume there was a safety car all the way to the end? That would be completely unfair on Red Bull who could have gotten close to Lewis with a lap or so of normal racing following the safety car.

Do you just run the whole thing again? Do you just pretend it never happened and discount the race result? Do you null the championship? It's impossible to find a fair solution, especially when you take into consideration other teams too - I mean, how Sainz almost got pipped to 3rd by Tsunoda is almost as appalling as the Max/Lewis incident.

This whole thing is just such a feck up by the FIA that all the work Lewis/Max have done to get viewers interested in F1 is completely coloured. This is not the debate that should be happening.

The fairest decision on the day would have been to just have a SC stay out until the end. You would have ended up with the closest thing to a "natural" race result that looked to be on the cards, albeit a damp squib of an ending. Yesterday felt like watching WWE.

There is precedent for races to end early. But it is usually weather or time-related issues that cause it. This will be the first time I will see the last 2 laps disqualified on a technicality. But quite frankly we are in new territory here. I've never seen this happen before. It was really strange.

But my honest opinion is that they will allow the race result to stand in the end. They definitely can't null and void the race, or the whole season. And reversing the car order will be be a faceful of egg for the FIA. Like the Ovrebo/Chelsea situation, the result was allowed to stand and the referee fired.

 

[Redlambs]

Erm, not really.


If Merc truly care about the sport and if it truly is as clear cut as most on here are saying then how is letting Masi get away with it good for F1? I agree he's incompetent. He's proven that time and time again and he should go. I mean, it would suck for Max, he didn't do anything wrong and had an amazing season (statistically the best driver I believe), and it would be cruel being crowned champion and letting him celebrate it only to then have it taken away in court weeks/months later for something he had no control over, but in the long run it would probably be better for the sport.

You need to read posts properly instead of going off on your tangent of disbelief.

Nobody is saying it's good for F1, that will simply be the line trotted out when they make a deal. You are completely wrong if you think "one of the best lawyers in the world" (your words) would let them do that. You simply don't understand how they work, as I've said above somewhere, his case isn't for CAS as they know the FIA won't let them get that far. It's for the FIA to get the most compensation to keep it away from CAS.

You keep saying the rules are "vague" well then that hurts them even more, any lawyer could use that and will use that. You think the defence benefits from it? Again, you simply don't understand how that works. .

In actual fact, not only do Mercedes have a strong case, they have all the power. As I've repeatedly told you, this will be dealt with behind the scenes as these things always are to keep the FIA in control of what happens, they'll give the Mercs what they want and that'll be literally anything to stop CAS being involved. There's no chance they want it anywhere near them.

So what will happen is that there'll be some grandstanding, Toto will get a very carefully worded "rant" and they'll all decide that it's "best for F1" if they let it go. When in fact you, I, and everyone else know it's actually best for the CAS to get involved and stop the sports entertainment show the FIA have turned the "sport" in to. When that happens, feel free to ignore the blindingly obvious staring you straight in the face though and continue to claim that it's really because Mercedes have no case. You do you. But don't say I didn't warn you when they get even more decisions than they already do next season and Horner's moans are even more superficial than usual.

 

[hobbers]

On a serious note, I do think that they should implement a rule where only the assigned Sporting Directors of each team or equivalent are the ones that communicate with the Race Director. Both Merc and Red Bull had fairly reasonable sounding guys in that role this season, that handled most of the comms. When Horner or Toto got on the comms it was usually just for a whine and nothing of substance. Who remembers the "I've sent you an email" episode also?

If you want a race director to make good impartial decisions you cant let those two angry clowns (Toto and Horner) have a direct line into his head whenever they like.

Not that they're clowns all the time but in the middle of a race they usually behave like one.

 

[Redlambs]

If you want a race director to make good impartial decisions you cant let those two angry clowns (Toto and Horner) have a direct line into his head whenever they like.

Not that they're clowns all the time but in the middle of a race they usually behave like them.

Yep. Communications should be one way only, the race director telling them what's happening.

Certainly not letting Horner choose the punishments anyway

 

[Adam-Utd]

Have always thought Sainz is the better driver.

Leclerc maybe has the edge on raw talent but he's very inconsistent and makes a ton of unforced mistakes throughout the season. Sainz clearly handles pressure far better.

Yeah Leclerc has shown some really impressive drives in the past, Silverstone this year in particular.

Sainz had a tricky start but since the half way point he's been showing his Mclaren form. Will be interesting to see how it goes next year.

I think it's going to take some drivers a lot longer to get used to the different tyres, and the wheel covers over the tyres themselves.

A few drivers have mentioned you cannot see the wheel anymore, so using that as a reference point for hitting an apex etc is going to be very difficult.

 

[Abizzz]

If you want a race director to make good impartial decisions you cant let those two angry clowns (Toto and Horner) have a direct line into his head whenever they like.

Not that they're clowns all the time but in the middle of a race they usually behave like one.

To be fair to both Toto and Horner if I'd have to communicate with Masi about racing I would probably become a meme too.

 

[Redlambs]

To be fair to both Toto and Horner if I'd have to communicate with Masi about racing I would probably become a meme too.

Fair point

 

[The Hilton]

If you want a race director to make good impartial decisions you cant let those two angry clowns (Toto and Horner) have a direct line into his head whenever they like.

Not that they're clowns all the time but in the middle of a race they usually behave like one.

To be fair this is a good point, It's effectively the F1 equivalent of players surrounding the referee intimidating them.

Masi's position is untenable though, he's brought the sport into disrepute, and that's not mentioning the rest of the season where he's been an inconsistent mess. For F1 to come out of this with any semblance of respect he needs to be gone.

 

[RoadTrip]

Yeah Leclerc has shown some really impressive drives in the past, Silverstone this year in particular.

Sainz had a tricky start but since the half way point he's been showing his Mclaren form. Will be interesting to see how it goes next year.

I think it's going to take some drivers a lot longer to get used to the different tyres, and the wheel covers over the tyres themselves.

A few drivers have mentioned you cannot see the wheel anymore, so using that as a reference point for hitting an apex etc is going to be very difficult.

That’s interesting. I hadn’t thought about that.

 

[RoadTrip]

Yeah but it's like a feedback loop. They get irate at him for doing his job, then he gets irate at them for being twats and so makes worse decisions, then they get even more irate at him.

I definitely agree with the broader point that these types of communication must stop. I would say three things though:

1. Even though not previously aired on TV, these communications must always have existed right? Or did something change? I presume they have to keep them open because I guess certain formal communication is required from the director to the team and vice versa. So I suspect they can’t close it entirely.
2. Whilst not doubt it makes his job harder, part of the reason he has that job has to be that he can handle the pressure and make the right decisions at the right time. It’s the top director job in motor sports, to have it you must surely demonstrate these abilities. Anyone can otherwise read a rule book to make decisions. What should set them apart is doing it at the right time and quickly, safely, correctly. Charlie was just miles better than this, and I bet he got earfuls down the radio too.
3. Masi is also part of the reason why Toto and Horner send these messages. It’s like certain refs in football, like Colina - he earned respect and commanded authority, so you knew not to mess with him. Masi clearly hasn’t achieved that respect from his peers which is partly his own fault.

I guess I’m saying that sometimes the man himself is the issuE.

 

[Adam-Utd]

That’s interesting. I hadn’t thought about that.

Yep! seems to have been completely forgotten about in the design process. Vision is bad enough with the halo it's going to take a lot of adjustment with wheel covers too.

I predict a lot more accidents at street circuits next year.

 

[ArjenIsM3]

You need to read posts properly instead of going off on your tangent of disbelief.

Nobody is saying it's good for F1, that will simply be the line trotted out when they make a deal. You are completely wrong if you think "one of the best lawyers in the world" (your words) would let them do that. You simply don't understand how they work, as I've said above somewhere, his case isn't for CAS as they know the FIA won't let them get that far. It's for the FIA to get the most compensation to keep it away from CAS.

You keep saying the rules are "vague" well then that hurts them even more, any lawyer could use that and will use that. You think the defence benefits from it? Again, you simply don't understand how that works. .

In actual fact, not only do Mercedes have a strong case, they have all the power. As I've repeatedly told you, this will be dealt with behind the scenes as these things always are to keep the FIA in control of what happens, they'll give the Mercs what they want and that'll be literally anything to stop CAS being involved. There's no chance they want it anywhere near them.

So what will happen is that there'll be some grandstanding, Toto will get a very carefully worded "rant" and they'll all decide that it's "best for F1" if they let it go. When in fact you, I, and everyone else know it's actually best for the CAS to get involved and stop the sports entertainment show the FIA have turned the "sport" in to. When that happens, feel free to ignore the blindingly obvious staring you straight in the face though and continue to claim that it's really because Mercedes have no case. You do you. But don't say I didn't warn you when they get even more decisions than they already do next season and Horner's moans are even more superficial than usual.

Oh I don't doubt that could happen, I'm not naïve, but what you're outlining would be even worse for the sport so I just hope that it's not the case and they don't fix this with some shady under the table deal.

 

[Redlambs]

Oh I don't doubt that could happen, I'm not naïve, but what you're outlining would be even worse for the sport so I just hope that it's not the case and they don't fix this with some shady under the table deal.

I'd bet money the deal is already done mate. And yes it's shit, but it has way more precedent than Masi's decision I guess

Anyway, at least Max stays champion and we can move on. As much as it sucks, there's nothing anyone can do about the state of F1 and the way it's run anyway. Might as well enjoy the entertainment when it rarely comes!

 

[F-Red]

I definitely agree with the broader point that these types of communication must stop. I would say three things though:

1. Even though not previously aired on TV, these communications must always have existed right? Or did something change? I presume they have to keep them open because I guess certain formal communication is required from the director to the team and vice versa. So I suspect they can’t close it entirely.
2. Whilst not doubt it makes his job harder, part of the reason he has that job has to be that he can handle the pressure and make the right decisions at the right time. It’s the top director job in motor sports, to have it you must surely demonstrate these abilities. Anyone can otherwise read a rule book to make decisions. What should set them apart is doing it at the right time and quickly, safely, correctly. Charlie was just miles better than this, and I bet he got earfuls down the radio too.
3. Masi is also part of the reason why Toto and Horner send these messages. It’s like certain refs in football, like Colina - he earned respect and commanded authority, so you knew not to mess with him. Masi clearly hasn’t achieved that respect from his peers which is partly his own fault.

I guess I’m saying that sometimes the man himself is the issuE.

1. Yeah it's always existed, it's just now being broadcasted for the spectacle of the sport. They've always had formal communication, and the lobbying has always existed.
2. Agreed, have a look at this video of Charlie and you can see how different his approach is when talking about communication with team principals.
3. Agreed. He's shown this year to be out of his depth. When the headlines have been about race control and not the racing, then it's pretty clear there's an issue.

 

[Rooney1987]

This thread is a bigger car crash than Latifi.

You must have been around for the 2009 F1 thread was very spygate heavy, that era will never be topped for toxic comments imo. Many bans got handed out. Yesterday got very close though.

 

[arnie_ni]

https://www.tiktok.com/@f1home/video/7041131274345450757?_t=8O8yeZ2o2eU&_r=1

 

[Jerch]

https://www.tiktok.com/@f1home/video/7041131274345450757?_t=8O8yeZ2o2eU&_r=1

Jusr wanted to post YouTube video about this. Will do because the main part when he says it should be done 2 laps ago is cut off.


Basically the only mistake it was made was not to let backmarkers pass lap or two before and they corrected that mistake by letting backmarkers between championship contenders go by. Otherwise it would clearly be argued that Hamilton was given the trophy by keeping tampon zone between him and Max. And that opinion comes out of one of the best drivers on the grid with most experience.

 

[spiriticon]

Jusr wanted to post YouTube video about this. Will do because the main part when he says it should be done 2 laps ago is cut off.


Basically the only mistake it was made was not to let backmarkers pass lap or two before and they corrected that mistake by letting backmarkers between championship contenders go by. Otherwise it would clearly be argued that Hamilton was given the trophy by keeping tampon zone between him and Max. And that opinion comes out of one of the best drivers on the grid with most experience.

You got to let all of them pass and unlap themselves, not 5 of them. What do people not get?

 

[Igor Drefljak]

Just popping in to make sure Max is still champion

 

[One Night Only]

Just popping in to make sure Max is still champion

Nope, FIA stripped him of the title and given it to Michael Masi Jr.

 

[sglowrider]

 

[Igor Drefljak]

Nope, FIA stripped him of the title and given it to Michael Masi Jr.

That's a shame.
Oh well, rather Masi than Hamilton anyway, so there's always that I suppose

 

[United Hobbit]

Just watching the highlights, that battle with Perez and Lewis was brilliant. Good clean racing from both, I hope we get more wheel to wheel like that next season

 

[United Hobbit]

Surely just red flag it, Lewis can then change tyres and we get an absolutely epic 5 lap duel to the finish

I think Mercedes fecked it during the virtual safety car, it would have given Lewis fresher tyres and even if behind Max I think he'd have passed him as he was so much quicker. If he'd had 15 lap old tyres rather than 40 at the end (obviously they weren't to know) I think he could have held him off

 

[F-Red]

I think Mercedes fecked it during the virtual safety car, it would have given Lewis fresher tyres and even if behind Max I think he'd have passed him as he was so much quicker. If he'd had 15 lap old tyres rather than 40 at the end (obviously they weren't to know) I think he could have held him off

Track position was key towards the latter parts of the race. At lap 37 it wouldn't have been wise to put Hamilton behind Verstappen (given his record around leaving space/overtakes). I don't think Mercedes got much wrong based on their decisions at the time given Hamilton's pace from 37 onwards. VSC's & SC's always benefit the second driver with the freedom of the choice.

 

[Jerch]

For every Merc and Lewis fan who was arguing their point all night. Toto at the after party, it looks like he doesn't care a lot about what happened.

 

[rimaldo]

For every Merc and Lewis fans who was arguing their point all night. Toto at the after party, it looks like he doesn't care a lot about what happened.

for max and red bull it was the greatest day of their lives. for toto, it was sunday.

 

[Dan_F]

Track position was key towards the latter parts of the race. At lap 37 it wouldn't have been wise to put Hamilton behind Verstappen (given his record around leaving space/overtakes). I don't think Mercedes got much wrong based on their decisions at the time given Hamilton's pace from 37 onwards. VSC's & SC's always benefit the second driver with the freedom of the choice.

Reflecting back on it, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with either decision. I didn’t think that at the time about the VSC, but they were provided right if it wasn’t for the actual SC.

Had Lewis been ahead on points it may have been different, but given the situation, there’s no way they were ever going to be able to put Lewis back behind Max.