Russell (and Norris) are very talented drivers. I expect Russell to compete next year. Best case scenario he pulls a Rosberg and beats Hamilton in the same car
F1 2021 Season
- Thread starter pauldyson1uk
- Start date
Careful what you wish for, quite a few races Lewis had to battle both RBs on his own this season.Russell (and Norris) are very talented drivers. I expect Russell to compete next year. Best case scenario he pulls a Rosberg and beats Hamilton in the same car
Agree with the rivalry. Best season for a very long time
Russell (and Norris) are very talented drivers. I expect Russell to compete next year. Best case scenario he pulls a Rosberg and beats Hamilton in the same car
Oh no, I don't think they are crap. Far from it. But there's a difference to being good and being good.
I just don't think they have 'it' to beat Max consistently over a season. They basically have to be on Lewis's level. I don't see 'it'.
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Is this in part why the safety car effectively gives people a chance to make amends, as some sort of equalizer due to gulfs in car quality?
I've absolutely no idea. I haven't watched in 10 or 15 years until yesterday
I hadnt really watched either, just can’t seem to find out what it was that made them choose the safety car rules. 1st place can be 15 seconds clear of 2nd place, but car in 17th place crashes and all of a sudden 2nd is right behind 1st. Why was that allowed to be a general rule?
Mainly safety. How would you safely clear the track without bunching up the cars?
Because when the rules were written there was no virtual safety car, and no working means of keeping the distance between the cars. The safety car was a way to not use the last resort (red flag) if it wasn't really necessary. Since then things and attitudes towards safety have changed. You used to see cars being cleared of the track under just a yellow, not even a safety car, if there was decent space to go by the crash site.
The red flag was always avoided because it leads to standing starts and those used to be the most dangerous part of racing.
That part makes sense, but just have someone figure out the gaps between every position, then release cars one at a time? “Lewis, you will go on my first whistle. Max, you will go on my second whistle” and so forth.
Who would have thought Rosberg could challenge Hamilton over a season?
Verstappen is excellent but he's not invincible. Where was he when Leclerc was winning races in the Ferrari 2 years ago?
Haha yh right, they should look at something as I think its unfair. But I doubt they will do anything since it increases excitement.
Also when its not a serious crash then they do VSC where they don’t bunch up the field.
Of course you have the same situation with a SC and a race getting red flagged anyway.
it’s such a harsh punishment for people fighting for podiums and points, when they didn’t do anything wrong. There has to be a better way.
A timed released maybe, but I doubt it is actually practical.
It's long been accepted as a factor that can mix up a race and introduce excitement. F1 in general wants to have some factors that operate against the lead car simply starting 1st and driving off into the distance, which is a natural tendency of a race if you have qualifying to set the grid.
Over the length of a season it is thought that you're unlikely to have every Safety Car situation go for or against you, and that over 23 races the faster driver and team will come out on top even if a few things go against them in a few races. This was the rare incident in which 2 drivers were so evenly matched that they arrived at the last race tied, with the opportunity for these factors to now decide the championship.
None of this makes the breach of normal Safety Car restart procedure yesterday acceptable though.
Imagine cars going on a whistle
Yeah there's a lot of mythologising going on for Max here - he's fast, but in a multi way title race his "yield or we crash" approach will lead to other drivers running away with it. Not to mention that he buckled under he pressure of the final few races this year, and had to be rescued by Masi and his made up rules. Norris and Russell in equivalent cars are both capable of beating him over a season, even if Max would be favourite.
Didn't realise Hamilton was going to get knighted this week. I'm not into the whole honours thing but thoroughly well deserved from this guy.
The red flag was unnecessary I agree. But it would be the best for 'Masi TV' so I'm really surprised Masi didn't go for it. The safety car was absolutely necessary to remove the broken down car and bits in a dangerous part of the track, but what annoys everybody is that only partial safety car rules were followed because of 'Masi TV'
If the race had to finish under the safety car, so be it. It isn't the first or last race that this will happen and Lewis deserved victory anyway.
If Masi wanted racing after a safety car he should have left the back markers where they were. Max is still racing Lewis for that one lap, the back markers were obliged to get out of his way ASAP, and Max already was very lucky to have a 13 sec lead cut down to just a few secs in the final lap.
What you absolutely cannot do (without bringing the sport into disrepute) is the '5 cars only' thing. Ridiculous.
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Max is the favourite is all I'm saying. Of course he is not guaranteed to win every race, but my bet would be on him every time if there is no clear car advantage.
So I've had some time to digest the race and the afters and it's a shame that in a season dominated by the officiating by the FIA, that it came down to them to manufacture a finish. Both drivers would have been worthy winners of the title based across the season's performances, however the way its won has probably left the sport with more questions than answers at a time.
Race
I actually thought the race was pretty bland, other than a couple of key moments (leaving out the safety car incident here) which impacted the order. The turn one incident was correctly judged in my opinion, Max did leave little to no space on the exit, so avoiding action was happening and pretty the name of the game for this season between those two. I genuinely don't think Max had the pace in that first stint on the softs to even keep Hamilton at bay so it would have made little to no difference on a time penalty. I think Perez's involvement in holding up Hamilton wasn't the most critical element to the race decision, the pace Hamilton had on that car probably would have seen him neutralise the race later on. As we saw as Verstappen needed 20 qualifying laps of pace (0.8 secs per lap) to get up to Hamilton and couldn't get to the time gaps he needed. The biggest part of the play here was Bottas, and as he was off the pace it gave Red Bull at lot of flexibility in terms of having enough of a gap to make and call pitstops to vary it up. Had Bottas been on the pace, I think this would have put Mercedes in a more stronger position to close out the win. Of course this was before any safety car got involved, but it was clear that Mercedes had the fastest car under Hamilton at that race.
Safety Car
I think in nearly 30 years of watching F1, I've never seen a season where the officiating has been inconsistent and at best confusing around how the rules are interpreted. The whole aspect of Masi going from not letting lapped cars through, to letting lapped cars through is the biggest swing of a decision I've seen and one which had clear ramifications for the race and championship. Masi had three options based on the regulations as far as I was concerned; red flag the race, SC with no lapped cars being able to pass, or SC with all lapped cars going through. What we got was none of that and his own interpretation of some lapped cars to allow the leaders, Hamilton and Verstappen, to bunch to artificially create a one lap showdown. It was telling that the drivers being told to unlap themselves weren't clear in how this happened, and importantly Masi had declared by letting 5 cars through that to decide the outcome of the race that the third spot on the podium wasn't important and kept cars between Verstappen and Sainz. Those cars that unlapped themselves never actually caught the back of the pack up again. The fairest way if the FIA wanted to bring a showdown was to have red flagged the race, and a standing start procedure. Whether you're a Max or Lewis fan, or even a neutral, this unclear officiating has been a problem all season and it's clear that Masi isn't up to the job which is a far wider problem that needs addressing by the FIA.
The wider implication here is that Mercedes were basing their pit calls off the regulations, assuming that Masi would follow them, their calls were correct in that track position was the key here. Their decision would have been based on a Red Flag, which would allow them to change tyres, a SC with no lapped cars being allowed through, which meant Max would of had 5 cars to navigate, or SC with lapped cars coming through which would of meant the race being finished behind the safety car. Red Bulls decision making was done on last chance saloon, I don't think for a second they expected what happened to play out and them going onto different tyres was real throwing of the dice, and the miracle that Horner needed played out right in front of him.
Protests
I don't think for a second we'll see any change to the race result. What I do think we'll see if Mercedes and the FIA come to some agreement financially and behind closed doors, to soften the blow of the decision making in those last laps. I believe Masi will be moved on to a different role, and Mercedes will play a card of loss of earnings by not being able to market them winning drivers championship. They've got deep pockets (as have their sponsors) and them bringing a QC to the last race probably gave the biggest indication that they thought the interpretation of the regulations would have tested to the limit given that the stakes were so high. I think the FIA know that they're prepared to take this all the way, and they would probably lose if challenged in a court so they will look to get to a quick resolution. The unfortunate outcome in all of this is F1's reputation is at an all time low.
Race
I actually thought the race was pretty bland, other than a couple of key moments (leaving out the safety car incident here) which impacted the order. The turn one incident was correctly judged in my opinion, Max did leave little to no space on the exit, so avoiding action was happening and pretty the name of the game for this season between those two. I genuinely don't think Max had the pace in that first stint on the softs to even keep Hamilton at bay so it would have made little to no difference on a time penalty. I think Perez's involvement in holding up Hamilton wasn't the most critical element to the race decision, the pace Hamilton had on that car probably would have seen him neutralise the race later on. As we saw as Verstappen needed 20 qualifying laps of pace (0.8 secs per lap) to get up to Hamilton and couldn't get to the time gaps he needed. The biggest part of the play here was Bottas, and as he was off the pace it gave Red Bull at lot of flexibility in terms of having enough of a gap to make and call pitstops to vary it up. Had Bottas been on the pace, I think this would have put Mercedes in a more stronger position to close out the win. Of course this was before any safety car got involved, but it was clear that Mercedes had the fastest car under Hamilton at that race.
Safety Car
I think in nearly 30 years of watching F1, I've never seen a season where the officiating has been inconsistent and at best confusing around how the rules are interpreted. The whole aspect of Masi going from not letting lapped cars through, to letting lapped cars through is the biggest swing of a decision I've seen and one which had clear ramifications for the race and championship. Masi had three options based on the regulations as far as I was concerned; red flag the race, SC with no lapped cars being able to pass, or SC with all lapped cars going through. What we got was none of that and his own interpretation of some lapped cars to allow the leaders, Hamilton and Verstappen, to bunch to artificially create a one lap showdown. It was telling that the drivers being told to unlap themselves weren't clear in how this happened, and importantly Masi had declared by letting 5 cars through that to decide the outcome of the race that the third spot on the podium wasn't important and kept cars between Verstappen and Sainz. Those cars that unlapped themselves never actually caught the back of the pack up again. The fairest way if the FIA wanted to bring a showdown was to have red flagged the race, and a standing start procedure. Whether you're a Max or Lewis fan, or even a neutral, this unclear officiating has been a problem all season and it's clear that Masi isn't up to the job which is a far wider problem that needs addressing by the FIA.
The wider implication here is that Mercedes were basing their pit calls off the regulations, assuming that Masi would follow them, their calls were correct in that track position was the key here. Their decision would have been based on a Red Flag, which would allow them to change tyres, a SC with no lapped cars being allowed through, which meant Max would of had 5 cars to navigate, or SC with lapped cars coming through which would of meant the race being finished behind the safety car. Red Bulls decision making was done on last chance saloon, I don't think for a second they expected what happened to play out and them going onto different tyres was real throwing of the dice, and the miracle that Horner needed played out right in front of him.
Protests
I don't think for a second we'll see any change to the race result. What I do think we'll see if Mercedes and the FIA come to some agreement financially and behind closed doors, to soften the blow of the decision making in those last laps. I believe Masi will be moved on to a different role, and Mercedes will play a card of loss of earnings by not being able to market them winning drivers championship. They've got deep pockets (as have their sponsors) and them bringing a QC to the last race probably gave the biggest indication that they thought the interpretation of the regulations would have tested to the limit given that the stakes were so high. I think the FIA know that they're prepared to take this all the way, and they would probably lose if challenged in a court so they will look to get to a quick resolution. The unfortunate outcome in all of this is F1's reputation is at an all time low.
I thought he was knighted last year to be honest. Or was the ceremony delayed or something?
I did think Rosberg could challenge Hamilton tbh. He was clearly faster than Schumacher, a 7 time world champ himself.
Why not then have an extended lap or 2 to unbunch them to a similar distance/time level?generally speaking, not yesterday
Michael Masi can be summed up by the radio exchange with Mercedes last week - first saying "I told you that Max was going to give the position back in time", followed by "well actually I can only press so many buttons at a time" when it was pointed out he was talking rubbish.
Just get him gone and the sport can move on from the debacle yesterday.
Just get him gone and the sport can move on from the debacle yesterday.
Maybe he didn't get an offical ceremony or something due to Covid.
You lose more racing laps, and also I'm not even sure how practical that is. E.g how do you translate a 20 seconds gap @ 200mph to a specific gap moving at slower pace etc.
However, I think the logistics to getting it right for 20 cars on the grid, probably makes it impractical.
Then the question is do you do the same for a red flag incident and restart.... whole thing gets a bit messy
They should probably at the very least not allow pit stops under the SC without a penalty, but as for losing your lead, not sure what can be done about that really
Fuel loads, they fuel them up at the start of a race for a set number of laps. Any extension to the race distance will have implications up & down the grid.
Fair enough. He was definitely included in the new years honours at the start of this year, so it must just be the actual awarding of it I guess. Well done to him though, fantastic achievement and very well deserved.
I wondered who of yourself and Jerch would first start this nonsense.
Yep, this us what I've been saying. I don't think it even gets to CAS. It'll all go away, the Max fanboys will claim it was right all along and then moan next season when the Mercs get even more unusual decisions than ever
A safety car, although unfair, is widely accepted as a rule and implemented into strategies etc.
People have no problem with it. People would've had no problem if the race yesterday finished behind the safety car.
The whole concept of the safety car isn't the issue here.
People have no problem with it. People would've had no problem if the race yesterday finished behind the safety car.
The whole concept of the safety car isn't the issue here.
Good post.
More fuel to the Masi fire, his comments in 2020 at the Eifel GP:
https://www.planetf1.com/news/michael-masi-eifel-safety-car/
https://www.planetf1.com/news/michael-masi-eifel-safety-car/
it’s not fair to use masi’s own words against him.
Why am I not surprised to see this.
Schumacher in his Mercedes stint was nowhere near the Schumi of old. Its like saying Giovanazzi is better than Raikkonen when he isn't even fit to lace his boots.
Rosberg was clearly fast, but he's not a top catagory driver either IMO.
My point being though, a lot of very good drivers are able to challenge the top guys in a similar car. It's consistency and dealing with the pressure/expectation of winning that will win the championship. It's something Verstappen and Hamilton have been excellent at.
We will see what happens with next years cars, but I doubt Verstappen will have anywhere near the same kind of domination that Merc/Hamilton had IMO.
Masi has to go.
The title won't be over turned but the sport needs to make sure it gets a fit and proper leader for the future.
This guy has been a clown all season and crowned it off in the worst possible way.
What did the 5 cars allowed to unlap end up doing? I saw a fan video at a corner towards sector 3, it seemed that they were running barely a few seconds ahead of Verstappen and Hamilton by the time they got around there in the last lap, just reflecting what a shambles of a decision it was.
Oh michael
nothing. it was just to give us the spectacle we deserved at the end of a long year.