F1 2021 Season

[BIGbadBOO4]

Perhaps, but i was replying to someone saying just because Max has done it in the past doesn't mean Hamilton should do it.
You can't expect to be aggressive and be shocked when someone else is. Or maybe I am misunderstanding.
Obviously, huge differences in opinion. We don't know what would have happened, maybe max was carrying too much speed and went off track like the 1st lap and was allowed to gain a position. We don't know ow whether Hamilton could have took the corner at that speed.
Two things I believe is Max will still win this year and another crash will happen, as max laid down early on and Hamilton backed off. But he isn't anymore.

 

[RoadTrip]

I'm not saying that drivers should perfectly calculate everything when they have fractions of seconds for each loop of decision-feedback-decision and so on. But I do think that if you find yourself trying to turn-in to copse corner and you're closer to the inside than to the outside, you've not put yourself in a position to make an overtake and you're responsible for any contact with cars that are on or closer to the racing line. I think that if it's for 1st place in Formula 1, for 18th, and for any position in the Clio Cup as well.

For sure shit happens when racing, none of these incidents is an indictment of a driver's character. I just don't think this one is just "a racing incident" and equal fault.

I’m sorry but within this race alone Hamilton overtook Norris and Le Clerc into that corner. So I fundamentally disagree with your argument.

Also, what if Verstappen hadn’t given Hamilton space? And just turned in on him? Would Hamilton still be responsible?

I have said in this thread many times, I can understand Hamilton’s penalty. Not because he was slightly behind. Not because he “shouldn’t have been there”. But because his mistake was he missed the apex of the corner. He didn’t mean to, it wasn’t malicious. But a mistake nonetheless.

Yet whilst I can therefore understand why he got the penalty, I don’t agree with it. For me a racing incident doesn’t need equal fault. I don’t know how / if I can tangibly describe a definition for a racing incident. But what makes this one for me, is that both drivers had opportunities to avoid it. Both could have given more space or backed off. But they didn’t. Because they were competing. And CRUCIALLY, I don’t think either drive does anything differently if the roles were reversed. If anything, Hamilton backs out more likely if he was in Verstappens role (not because it’s the right thing, but because he is more mature at this stage of his career and understands the risk / reward balance better, especially when you factor in which car is faster and the gap in the championship).

 

[mariachi-19]

The only mistake Max made was giving Lewis any respect into that corner. Next time he’ll learn to either put Lewis in the wall or take both cars out. Only max had something to lose in that move.

Lewis doing the same shit he pulled last time he was in a title fight against Rosberg… not surprising.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Yep, Maxs patented double moves which never seem to get pulled up. Hamilton actually had him from the start but max carried extra speed so Hamilton could not get past and actually got in the lead by going off the track. All this seems to be ignored.

Along with Max and his record of this kind of weaving.

To clarify, I enjoy watching Max racing but he is no angel, quite the opposite.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Nonsense. Verstappen has never done anything illegal all season. He’s been driving aggressively but has never crossed the line. Max has been schooling Lewis through clean racing and positioning his car better. Hamilton couldn’t take it anymore and did a Suzuka 1990.

Rubbish. This season Max has had the faster car yet Lewis is still in the fight.

But there is more evidence than only this season. This ex driver says it very clearly.
https://www.essentiallysports.com/f...-on-max-verstappen-and-his-dangerous-driving/

 

[Adam-Utd]

Looking outside the accident now and I must say that the last 20 laps by Hamilton were some of the most sensational driving I have seen in a while . His ability to push the car to its peak ability and still not make any mistakes is pretty brilliant. I have no idea how Bottas could barely do anything in the same car

It's like he's in a different formula.

I have no idea how he can make the tyres last that long and still keep up that pace. I thought he would end up ruining his tyres and just coming up short, or getting close to Leclerc and start suffering ,but nope he just powers through.

Compare it to Bottas and it's just a night and day difference. He really is special.

Shame about the incident with Max but what a performance.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Well this video clearly shows:
1. Lewis was never infront
2. Lewis went wide and with to much speed into this corner
3. Max tried to avoid it but wasn't able to because Lewis put the car where he shouldn't

The commentator in the end says that both expected to back out of it but noone did. But why should Max backed out of it if he had better line and was infront.

So clearly Lewis knew Max will not backed out because he had no reason to do that but still put the car there. If this would be move by a rookie I would say it's racing incident but I rate Lewis to much to say that he wasn't aware of the most likely outcome or that he missgudged corner or anything like that.

So combined with my initial post on this video, this is obviously a racing incident.

Lewis was level, Max had weaved dangerously, either could've backed out.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

There is a reason I mentioned those 2, because after all controversy they had they never put fellow driver into 51g accident.

What was the maximum G accident that had with each other then? Have you checked the records?

 

[Widow]

So combined with my initial post on this video, this is obviously a racing incident.

Lewis was level, Max had weaved dangerously, either could've backed out.

Correct.

Fanboys will disagree but it should have gone down as a racing incident.

 

[redshaw]

What I didn't like watching the incident first time and studying the replays is just how wild Max was weaving to break the tow. He knew he was going to get overtaken easily, he dives over to the right then jumps back out to the left then just turns in hard right as if Lewis was never over 3/4 of a car alongside, Lewis actually lifts and drops back but unfortunately they tag.

Lewis is about 90% alongside, half a front wing length in it, this is the moment Max had gone back out to the left after weaving to the right

Lewis lifts and drops back and Max turns in pretty hard considering they were just side by side and the amount of weaving going on by Max. It wasn't a careless send up the inside. Max knew he was there alongside and was weaving frantically to break the tow and closed him out. Max wasn't optimally going to take the corner like on a solo lap, far from it and should slowed a little like Lewis to both go around. Lewis was legitimately making a move, made it on a desperately weaving Max. You can't just turn the corner into solo mode after what transpired fractions of a second before. This wasn't a normal copse entry for Max. I'd call it a racing incident.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Max has always been aggressive, since day 1, you could find a highlight reel an hour long with questionable moves or dive bombs or “move or we crash” but it’s exciting racing and when it works you are a hero. For him to accuse another driver of unsportsmanlike racing is about as rich as it comes, you could point out 2 or 3 moves this season where Hamilton was soft with him and avoided the incident, the one time Max was in that position they crashed.

“Disrespectful” coming from a driver that called others some pretty unsavoury remarks even as recent as earlier this season. But when your dad talks shit, your advisor Helmut talks shit and your boss Horner talks shit you probably end up very unaware of reality.

I hope Leclerc has a car to challenge him for years to come, he’s the one driver that reacted to Max’s driving and said “feck it then, I’ll do it too”. Those two will keep body shops working 24/7 if they race close.

Good post.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Loving all the ridiculous defending of Lewis on here. All basically saying "yeah but Max has done some dangerous driving in the past" or "yeah but Max has talked a lot of shite in the past", as if that somehow makes what Lewis did during and said after the race okay.

Actually there had been comment on Max weaving around on the track today multiple times, again, and also the fact that either driver could've backed out.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

I would have said the same. You drive your rival of the track or course it’s unfair. I don’t understand how a 10 second penalty is all of a sudden fair. It isn’t fair. It costs Max 25 points. I don’t even understand how this is even a debate. And I definitely would have said the same if Max would ran Lewis from the track. And I ctredited Lewis too.

Because both drivers caused the incident. Even the FIA did not say it was 100% Hamiltons fault. Get a grip.

 

[Adam-Utd]

What I didn't like watching the incident first time and studying the replays is just how wild Max was weaving to break the tow. He knew he was going to get overtaken easily, he dives over to the right then jumps back out to the left then just turns in hard right as if Lewis was never over 3/4 of a car alongside, Lewis actually lifts and drops back but unfortunately they tag.

Lewis is about 90% alongside, half a front wing length in it, this is the moment Max had gone back out to the left after weaving to the right

Lewis lifts and drops back and Max turns in pretty hard considering they were just side by side and the amount of weaving going on by Max. It wasn't a careless send up the inside. Max knew he was there alongside and was weaving frantically to break the tow and closed him out. Max wasn't optimally going to take the corner like on a solo lap, far from it and should slowed a little like Lewis to both go around. Lewis was legitimately making a move, made it on a desperately weaving Max. You can't just turn the corner into solo mode after what transpired fractions of a second before. This wasn't a normal copse entry for Max. I'd call it a racing incident.

Exactly

People that say Max was always in front are just being purposely obtuse.

It's a racing incident every time. I've already said it before but Max's biggest error was allowing Hamilton to get inside him on a right hand corner. He should have held the middle of the track and forced Lewis to go outside him, he would have known he couldn't take the corner at that speed with full fuel and would have backed out ready to have a go again at the next straight.

 

[vangagal]

It never been this bad i recall even when Rosberg/ Hamilton crashed at Catalan. Max's fan and Lewis haters really come out in full force calling him all sort of thing.
BLM thing was my favourite. God knows how it was even related to this race.

 

[Kanu]

Another crashtappen fan smoking the funny stuff
Exactly when has he done it ever? Nevermind this season where his aggression has been 110%
I have never seen Max pull out.
Imola and Spanish or Portugal race he basically went back out Hamilton or we crash. Hamilton backed out.

Hamilton, Kimi, Vettel, Rosberg and Button all ex champions have stated YOU HAVE TO DRIVE DIFFERENTLY WITH MAX.

Crashtappen Not gonna waste my time arguing with you.

 

[Mark_Barca]

This still going?

Also 'crashtappen' is howling patter.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

What I didn't like watching the incident first time and studying the replays is just how wild Max was weaving to break the tow. He knew he was going to get overtaken easily, he dives over to the right then jumps back out to the left then just turns in hard right as if Lewis was never over 3/4 of a car alongside, Lewis actually lifts and drops back but unfortunately they tag.

Lewis is about 90% alongside, half a front wing length in it, this is the moment Max had gone back out to the left after weaving to the right

Lewis lifts and drops back and Max turns in pretty hard considering they were just side by side and the amount of weaving going on by Max. It wasn't a careless send up the inside. Max knew he was there alongside and was weaving frantically to break the tow and closed him out. Max wasn't optimally going to take the corner like on a solo lap, far from it and should slowed a little like Lewis to both go around. Lewis was legitimately making a move, made it on a desperately weaving Max. You can't just turn the corner into solo mode after what transpired fractions of a second before. This wasn't a normal copse entry for Max. I'd call it a racing incident.

Good analysis.

Max has done this weaving to a number of other drivers who have highlighted it. Kimi and Vettel for example.

 

[The Hilton]

The bitch boy of Mercedes*

And you have the audacity to hang around in this thread calling people fanboys.

 

[ArjenIsM3]

What I didn't like watching the incident first time and studying the replays is just how wild Max was weaving to break the tow. He knew he was going to get overtaken easily, he dives over to the right then jumps back out to the left then just turns in hard right as if Lewis was never over 3/4 of a car alongside, Lewis actually lifts and drops back but unfortunately they tag.

Lewis is about 90% alongside, half a front wing length in it, this is the moment Max had gone back out to the left after weaving to the right

Lewis lifts and drops back and Max turns in pretty hard considering they were just side by side and the amount of weaving going on by Max. It wasn't a careless send up the inside. Max knew he was there alongside and was weaving frantically to break the tow and closed him out. Max wasn't optimally going to take the corner like on a solo lap, far from it and should slowed a little like Lewis to both go around. Lewis was legitimately making a move, made it on a desperately weaving Max. You can't just turn the corner into solo mode after what transpired fractions of a second before. This wasn't a normal copse entry for Max. I'd call it a racing incident.

You do realize Lewis had to lift to even make the corner because he was far too much on the inside while Max was on the racing line so could carry more speed thus didn't have to lift? It was a dangerous move from Lewis to begin with. He really had no chance to do a clean overtake there from that position.

 

[Xeno]

The Merc should be better around Silverstone. Recent tracks have definitely suited the RB. It's probably a quicker car regardless.

Even with a penalty Hamilton will win the the race.

I should play fantasy F1 haha.

 

[Eendracht maakt macht]

Because both drivers caused the incident. Even the FIA did not say it was 100% Hamiltons fault. Get a grip.

How on earth has Verstappen caused the incident?

 

[blythy]

How on earth has Verstappen caused the incident?

 

[Wicked_Badger]

Just finished watching it. Cracking race, feels like it’s reignited the championship battle again.

Glad Max is OK, was a huge hit. Hopefully there’ll be no longer term damage done to him than some bruising.

Brilliant racing from Max & Lewis on the first lap. Racing incident in my book (especially watching Karun’s analysis). Neither willing to yield anything, both could have done a bit more to avoid the touch & ultimately it was a shame it happened as it looked like it was going to be a good battle.

This was always going to happen though. Max has an aggressive style of racing, and Lewis isn’t afraid to get his elbows out when needed either. Given the recent stewarding decisions, Lewis was always going to get a penalty for it.

LeClerc had a really strong day. Those Ferrari’s were rapid today, so glad to see McLaren’s coming in a strong 5/6th to keep that battle right.

Looked like an awesome atmosphere. I had tickets to go but couldn’t make it, so pretty gutted!

On a side note, Christian Horner’s post race interview was a bit too far IMO. I get emotions are running high, but he should have a bit more of a level-headed comments, especially 2 hours after the race.

 

[Xeno]

It’s a racing incident. Hamilton was a little wide and Max assumes he’s going to yield. It was good viewing till then.

I think the stewards got it wrong by giving a penalty, but if you do decide it’s a penalty surely it has to be one that impacts the outcome more than that.

Also, a lot of muppets in this thread (on both sides). Calm yourselves down ffs.

 

[Hephaestus]

Depressingly predictable.

Saw one of the mods on the F1 subreddit mentioning they'd had to delete 6000 messages with a "significant amount" being for racist abuse as well.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

How on earth has Verstappen caused the incident?

If you read my post "it was not 100% Hamiltons fault".

I.e close to 50/50, 60/40, 80/20. Whichever you prefer.

 

[Fluctuation0161]

Depressingly predictable.

Saw one of the mods on the F1 subreddit mentioning they'd had to delete 6000 messages with a "significant amount" being for racist abuse as well.

I suspect alot of "Black Pete" supporters will be on there, sadly.

 

[Tom Van Persie]

So predictable.

 

[Tom Van Persie]

And of course a lot of the Hamilton hate on the internet has nothing to do with him being a black driver in F1.

 

[Infordin]

Rubbish. This season Max has had the faster car yet Lewis is still in the fight.

But there is more evidence than only this season. This ex driver says it very clearly.
https://www.essentiallysports.com/f...-on-max-verstappen-and-his-dangerous-driving/

Hamilton is in the fight because Verstappen lost 50 points in Baku and Silverstone because of no fault of his own. It’s actually comical that Hamilton is still behind in the championship when he’s had all the luck and Verstappen has had all the bad luck.

Imola red flag
Baku puncture
Silverstone crash

Hamilton has been ridiculously lucky this season compared to Verstappen and he’s still behind.

 

[gormless]

How on earth has Verstappen caused the incident?

Top Gear once did a massive feature on Senna. Martin Brundle was saying Senna would always put you in a situation where either you had to back out, or you were both going to crash. If you backed out, Senna knew he had you for life.

Max has a similar style. He is the most brutally aggressive driver on the grid, and it’s the reason he’s 1) so exciting and well liked by neutrals, and 2) so good in wheel to wheel racing.

Whilst I wouldn’t say it was Max’s fault (personal opinion is racing incident but I f blame to be assigned, it’s on Hamilton), he definitely has a style which makes crashes more likely than average.

Max generally wins the battle of the wills, but today it didn’t happen. Hamilton knows that if he yields, Max disappears off up the road and the Championship is approaching a foregone conclusion. Max chooses a style that often relies on the other driver yielding. Generally they do yield, but now he’s in the fastest car, it’s less of an option.

 

[Eendracht maakt macht]

If you read my post "it was not 100% Hamiltons fault".

I.e close to 50/50, 60/40, 80/20. Whichever you prefer.

Yes but how can you even partially blame it on Verstappen?

 

[Eendracht maakt macht]

Top Gear once did a massive feature on Senna. Martin Brundle was saying Senna would always put you in a situation where either you had to back out, or you were both going to crash. If you backed out, Senna knew he had you for life.

Max has a similar style. He is the most brutally aggressive driver on the grid, and it’s the reason he’s 1) so exciting and well liked by neutrals, and 2) so good in wheel to wheel racing.

Whilst I wouldn’t say it was Max’s fault (personal opinion is racing incident but I f blame to be assigned, it’s on Hamilton), he definitely has a style which makes crashes more likely than average.

Max generally wins the battle of the wills, but today it didn’t happen. Hamilton knows that if he yields, Max disappears off up the road and the Championship is approaching a foregone conclusion. Max chooses a style that often relies on the other driver yielding. Generally they do yield, but now he’s in the fastest car, it’s less of an option.

I understand all of that and yes Max is agressive but in this situation that wasn’t really the case. I really don’t see wat Verstappen could have done different.

 

[Frosty]

Hamilton is in the fight because Verstappen lost 50 points in Baku and Silverstone because of no fault of his own. It’s actually comical that Hamilton is still behind in the championship when he’s had all the luck and Verstappen has had all the bad luck.

Imola red flag
Baku puncture
Silverstone crash

Hamilton has been ridiculously lucky this season compared to Verstappen and he’s still behind.

Honestly in my heart of hearts I probably want Max to beat Lewis and for Red Bull to break the Mercedes monopoly.

However, with that said Lewis should have won in Baku but made a mistake which Max benefited from. The Imola race was fortunate, but you must give Lewis credit for the amazing recovery drive he performed, that most could not.

Lewis got damage at Austria too causing him to fall to 4th when he should have got 2nd.

To me, it does feel like Lewis has not been driving to his full ability so far, (before today), and Max has been at 100%. That's why I see Lewis winning this year, even without the best car.

 

[0le]

I really don’t see wat Verstappen could have done different.

Not act like a twat after the race.

 

[Frosty]

Top Gear once did a massive feature on Senna. Martin Brundle was saying Senna would always put you in a situation where either you had to back out, or you were both going to crash. If you backed out, Senna knew he had you for life.

Max has a similar style. He is the most brutally aggressive driver on the grid, and it’s the reason he’s 1) so exciting and well liked by neutrals, and 2) so good in wheel to wheel racing.

Whilst I wouldn’t say it was Max’s fault (personal opinion is racing incident but I f blame to be assigned, it’s on Hamilton), he definitely has a style which makes crashes more likely than average.

Max generally wins the battle of the wills, but today it didn’t happen. Hamilton knows that if he yields, Max disappears off up the road and the Championship is approaching a foregone conclusion. Max chooses a style that often relies on the other driver yielding. Generally they do yield, but now he’s in the fastest car, it’s less of an option.

I remember watching that. I think Brundle said that on one occasion Senna gave him no room in a corner to gauge what kind of driver he was. Would he keep his car in one piece and back off or would he go for it knowing that there will be a collision. I think he said that Senna's car ended up on top of his?

 

[dinostar77]

Leclerc and Alonso on the incident between lewis and max.

Leclerc

Ferrari's Charles Leclerc was right behind the collision and inherited the lead after it, and lost what would have been his first victory of the year when Hamilton passed him for the win with two laps to go. He said: "It is a racing incident. It is quite difficult to put the blame on one or the other.

"There was space on the inside. Maybe Lewis was not completely at the apex but it is also true Max was quite aggressive on the outside. Things happen. The most important today is Max is unharmed and is fine."

Alonso

And Fernando Alonso, a two-time world champion, who has passed people around the outside of Copse a number of times in his career - including in the sprint race on Saturday - said: "Lewis had more than half a car alongside Max, so in a way Lewis could not disappear from that inside line. You can't vanish. So it was an unfortunate moment but nothing intentional and nothing that any of the two drivers did wrong."

 

[Frosty]

Yes but how can you even partially blame it on Verstappen?

Doesn't a racing incident imply that blame is shared?

 

[Frosty]

Leclerc and Alonso on the incident between lewis and max.

Leclerc

Ferrari's Charles Leclerc was right behind the collision and inherited the lead after it, and lost what would have been his first victory of the year when Hamilton passed him for the win with two laps to go. He said: "It is a racing incident. It is quite difficult to put the blame on one or the other.

"There was space on the inside. Maybe Lewis was not completely at the apex but it is also true Max was quite aggressive on the outside. Things happen. The most important today is Max is unharmed and is fine."

Alonso

And Fernando Alonso, a two-time world champion, who has passed people around the outside of Copse a number of times in his career - including in the sprint race on Saturday - said: "Lewis had more than half a car alongside Max, so in a way Lewis could not disappear from that inside line. You can't vanish. So it was an unfortunate moment but nothing intentional and nothing that any of the two drivers did wrong."

I really hope Leclerc wins the Championship soon. I really like the guy.