European Super League

Do you want the ESL to happen?

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I'm not buying that Barca is in dire trouble either. They're too big to fail, too important for Catalonia.

They'll find some dodgy way to raise money. Maybe a Madrid-esque training ground sale. :lol:

They'll be fine.
 
Gasolin said:
Yeah and that would go against every employment rule in force in Europe in general, and could be challenged. I think what we need more is something like an audit structure. Show us you are fit to compete by having a balanced budget as a minimum, with debt level in check and below a certain %, or your FC license is stripped away for this year, and relegated to the last division.

Or something like that. But these are corporate level restriction based on the budget as opposed to capping expenses.
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Would it? You're not restricting how much they can give any individual, just a maximum total based on their income. They can give 90% of it to one player if they like
 
Cmon guys, let's have that El Clasico Superliga.

Don't let me down. I really want to see who finishes top of the league between Real and Barca after 38 matches.
 
Acole9 said:
Amazing how far Barcelona have fallen.
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Remember when Pep was there and they were the model for all of world football to follow? A team made up mostly of players that came from their academy, conquering the world with a manager that was a former player of the club himself.

Just look at them now. Swimming in debt, overpaying for unnecessary flashy transfers that didn’t work out, and clinging to a self serving idea along with Real Madrid. How low the mighty have fallen.
 
hobbers said:
Watching Real and Barca go bankrupt is going to be quite enjoyable, not gonna lie.

'We pay our front 3 100m euros per season and can't understand why we're broke.'
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:lol: its true. They're ridiculous

Now looking to the whole of football for a bailout. I think we need a big club to fail. They've been totally irresponsible and it'll be a lesson to others.
 
Cloud7 said:
Remember when Pep was there and they were the model for all of world football to follow? A team made up mostly of players that came from their academy, conquering the world with a manager that was a former player of the club himself.

Just look at them now. Swimming in debt, overpaying for unnecessary flashy transfers that didn’t work out, and clinging to a self serving idea along with Real Madrid. How low the mighty have fallen.
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Will drink to that.

from a petty perspective, their ‘more than a club’ bollocks really pisses me off. They won’t go bust, and I don’t want them too, but being knocked off of their (self appointed) pedestal for a decade would be most welcome.
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
Will drink to that.

from a petty perspective, their ‘more than a club’ bollocks really pisses me off. They won’t go bust, and I don’t want them too, but being knocked off of their (self appointed) pedestal for a decade would be most welcome.
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Having visited Barcelona and learned about the history of their region, I understand the meaning behind the ‘more than a club’ thing, and what it really means to them, so it’s never annoyed me as much as it has other people.

However, there used to be a lot to admire about them as a club and a team and a lot of things I liked about their operation. Most of that is gone now, and they’re little more than Real Madrid in a purple shirt.
 
Cloud7 said:
Having visited Barcelona and learned about the history of their region, I understand the meaning behind the ‘more than a club’ thing, and what it really means to them, so it’s never annoyed me as much as it has other people.

However, there used to be a lot to admire about them as a club and a team and a lot of things I liked about their operation. Most of that is gone now, and they’re little more than Real Madrid in a purple shirt.
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I agree. But that went out the window. As an example, when they had no sponsor on their shirt or when it was for charity - there was something admirable about it.

now it’s bollocks. There’s nothing wrong with monitising the club - just don’t harp on about being better than everyone else, when you’re not… that’s my take.
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
I agree. But that went out the window. As an example, when they had no sponsor on their shirt or when it was for charity - there was something admirable about it.

now it’s bollocks. There’s nothing wrong with monitising the club - just don’t harp on about being better than everyone else, when you’re not… that’s my take.
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I mean we all saw bartomeu ruin that club in front of our eyes. What can you do when there is a mad man making all decisions?
 
Giggsyking said:
How can a small team Like Wolves make more money in TV rights than a big club like Porto?
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By being in a more profitable league that splits their TV money equally.

Maybe a Portugese/Spanish Liga could be done. The Iberian Liga or something.

VorZakone said:
I'm not buying that Barca is in dire trouble either. They're too big to fail, too important for Catalonia.

They'll find some dodgy way to raise money. Maybe a Madrid-esque training ground sale. :lol:

They'll be fine.
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I doubt that. It's 2021. We live in the post financial crisis world.

Iker Quesadillas said:
Where is Sevilla now? Winning the EL.
It is possible for clubs to be mismanaged. It happens in the PL too. Spain had a horrible financial crisis from 2008 to 2016 and anyone who was unlucky enough to get in trouble around the same time would have struggled to recover.
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Like Madrid and Barcelona.
 
Maybe it's laziness, but I wouldn't mind a an aggregator thread that you can view as tweets only, similar to the transfer thread. There's so much stuff going on at the minute, in the aftermath of this ludicrous plan, the fallout, new ownership structure, protests. And it's all within pockets of various threads.
 
Warning: Incoming rant about the Champions League. :)

There's one thing the "Super League big 12" have managed to do (and you've got to hand it to them), and that is to convince the majority of fans in England over the last couple of decades that "nobody wants to watch [insert two quite decent teams here]." During my time, the following teams have reached an European cup final (European cup, UEFA cup or Cup Winners Cup): IFK Gothenburg, Dundee United, Rapid Vienna, Dynamo Kiev, Sampdoria, Torino, Anderlecht, Mechelen, Steaua Bucuresti, PSV Eindhoven, Videoton (who knocked us out that year), Antwerpen, Schalke, Espanol, Cologne, Parma, Alavés, CSKA Moscow, Austria Salzburg, Bayer Leverkusen, Zenith, Dnipro, Braga, Red Star Belgrade, Monaco, Bordeaux, Werder Bremen, Real Zaragoza, Stuttgart, Celtic, Rangers, Fulham, Middlesbrough.

Teams such as these being in the final are more and more becoming the exception. For some people, this is a good sign. For me, and quite a few others, it's a feckin tragedy. It's as if the fans of these teams don't really deserve to watch their sides progress in the competition. European nights used to be a great occasion to see teams you'd only heard or read about, with that one player who was a future star. Now, I'm more or less forced to watch Bayern, Chelsea and Barcelona (who were embarrassed time and time again before they, along with teams from certain other nations, managed to moan and threaten their way into a secure CL spot). If you wonder how things were in the early years of the Champions League, England's representatives failed to qualify for the first two years (Leeds and Man Utd), while in the next two years, none of the teams made it past the group stage (Man Utd and Blackburn).

In my youth, it was fairly difficult to predict who would be the semi-finalists of next year's European Cup. Today, we can all name 6-7 teams which will pretty much cover the final four teams. It's boring, it's shite, and I'm fed up with it. I know most people on this site disagree with me and only wants to watch the big teams all the time, every week, but on the other hand I know many people who have essentially stopped watching the CL altogether, because it's a closed shop. Don't get me wrong, I love watching United in Europe, but some nation's teams have been given permission to more or less print their own money to the detriment of European football as a whole.

/rant :)
 
Hansa said:
Warning: Incoming rant about the Champions League. :)

There's one thing the "Super League big 12" have managed to do (and you've got to hand it to them), and that is to convince the majority of fans in England over the last couple of decades that "nobody wants to watch [insert two quite decent teams here]." During my time, the following teams have reached an European cup final (European cup, UEFA cup or Cup Winners Cup): IFK Gothenburg, Dundee United, Rapid Vienna, Dynamo Kiev, Sampdoria, Torino, Anderlecht, Mechelen, Steaua Bucuresti, PSV Eindhoven, Videoton (who knocked us out that year), Antwerpen, Schalke, Espanol, Cologne, Parma, Alavés, CSKA Moscow, Austria Salzburg, Bayer Leverkusen, Zenith, Dnipro, Braga, Red Star Belgrade, Monaco, Bordeaux, Werder Bremen, Real Zaragoza, Stuttgart, Celtic, Rangers, Fulham, Middlesbrough.

Teams such as these being in the final are more and more becoming the exception. For some people, this is a good sign. For me, and quite a few others, it's a feckin tragedy. It's as if the fans of these teams don't really deserve to watch their sides progress in the competition. European nights used to be a great occasion to see teams you'd only heard or read about, with that one player who was a future star. Now, I'm more or less forced to watch Bayern, Chelsea and Barcelona (who were embarrassed time and time again before they, along with teams from certain other nations, managed to moan and threaten their way into a secure CL spot). If you wonder how things were in the early years of the Champions League, England's representatives failed to qualify for the first two years (Leeds and Man Utd), while in the next two years, none of the teams made it past the group stage (Man Utd and Blackburn).

In my youth, it was fairly difficult to predict who would be the semi-finalists of next year's European Cup. Today, we can all name 6-7 teams which will pretty much cover the final four teams. It's boring, it's shite, and I'm fed up with it. I know most people on this site disagree with me and only wants to watch the big teams all the time, every week, but on the other hand I know many people who have essentially stopped watching the CL altogether, because it's a closed shop. Don't get me wrong, I love watching United in Europe, but some nation's teams have been given permission to more or less print their own money to the detriment of European football as a whole.

/rant :)
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Totally agree, it’s a league of their own already, I guess it’s not enough money for the greedy bastards though
 
Hansa said:
Warning: Incoming rant about the Champions League. :)

There's one thing the "Super League big 12" have managed to do (and you've got to hand it to them), and that is to convince the majority of fans in England over the last couple of decades that "nobody wants to watch [insert two quite decent teams here]." During my time, the following teams have reached an European cup final (European cup, UEFA cup or Cup Winners Cup): IFK Gothenburg, Dundee United, Rapid Vienna, Dynamo Kiev, Sampdoria, Torino, Anderlecht, Mechelen, Steaua Bucuresti, PSV Eindhoven, Videoton (who knocked us out that year), Antwerpen, Schalke, Espanol, Cologne, Parma, Alavés, CSKA Moscow, Austria Salzburg, Bayer Leverkusen, Zenith, Dnipro, Braga, Red Star Belgrade, Monaco, Bordeaux, Werder Bremen, Real Zaragoza, Stuttgart, Celtic, Rangers, Fulham, Middlesbrough.

Teams such as these being in the final are more and more becoming the exception. For some people, this is a good sign. For me, and quite a few others, it's a feckin tragedy. It's as if the fans of these teams don't really deserve to watch their sides progress in the competition. European nights used to be a great occasion to see teams you'd only heard or read about, with that one player who was a future star. Now, I'm more or less forced to watch Bayern, Chelsea and Barcelona (who were embarrassed time and time again before they, along with teams from certain other nations, managed to moan and threaten their way into a secure CL spot). If you wonder how things were in the early years of the Champions League, England's representatives failed to qualify for the first two years (Leeds and Man Utd), while in the next two years, none of the teams made it past the group stage (Man Utd and Blackburn).

In my youth, it was fairly difficult to predict who would be the semi-finalists of next year's European Cup. Today, we can all name 6-7 teams which will pretty much cover the final four teams. It's boring, it's shite, and I'm fed up with it. I know most people on this site disagree with me and only wants to watch the big teams all the time, every week, but on the other hand I know many people who have essentially stopped watching the CL altogether, because it's a closed shop. Don't get me wrong, I love watching United in Europe, but some nation's teams have been given permission to more or less print their own money to the detriment of European football as a whole.

/rant :)
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I agree for what its worth
 
Florentino Perez said those clubs signed a legally binding agreement. I dont think its over. They will probably try it with another formula sooner or later.
 
Charles Miller said:
Florentino Perez said those clubs signed a legally binding agreement. I dont think its over. They will probably try it with another formula sooner or later.
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Unless the formula involves meritocracy then it is doomed to fail and what would be the point? It would just be similar to the Champions League.
 
I mean there's no fecking way they can come back and try and repackage this for the next few years at least....they fecked it up too much.

They'll try again with relegation, but it'll probably take a decade.

Sidenote is that Perez is a fecking gowl, so no chance his "legally binding agreement" is legitimate.
 
Charles Miller said:
Florentino Perez said those clubs signed a legally binding agreement. I dont think its over. They will probably try it with another formula sooner or later.
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I don't there is anything they can do to touch or bother City's owners so they can't force them back contract or not.
 
Charles Miller said:
Florentino Perez said those clubs signed a legally binding agreement. I dont think its over. They will probably try it with another formula sooner or later.
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Thing is the things they'd need to change are the things they profit from the most.

Also, one thing will always remain: People don't want this league. What share of European fans support one of the top clubs and what share doesn't? I have no numbers on this topic but I wpuld be surprised if the former was more than 50%. European football is a long tail market. They suspected that the fans of other European clubs would eventually jump on board simply because of the sheer quality in this league but it's not that easy. I believe the targetbgroup doesn't exist, they developed a product that's not in line with the motives of the people they want to appeal to phrase it politely.
 
Zehner said:
Thing is the things they'd need to change are the things they profit from the most.

Also, one thing will always remain: People don't want this league. What share of European fans support one of the top clubs and what share doesn't? I have no numbers on this topic but I wpuld be surprised if the former was more than 50%. European football is a long tail market. They suspected that the fans of other European clubs would eventually jump on board simply because of the sheer quality in this league but it's not that easy. I believe the targetbgroup doesn't exist, they developed a product that's not in line with the motives of the people they want to appeal to phrase it politely.
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Not sure that European fans were their primary market.
 
Arruda said:
This is absolutely insane. They guaranteed that two of the biggest clubs always get a free pass. Clubs who are decently well in the coefficient no longer need to fear being left out of the CL at the end of their domestic seasons... unless there's a shitload of them in the same situation, which never happens.
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Let's take deep breath and a step back. I’m still not entirely sure why people think this is so outrageous. You cannot on one hand adopt the position that the football pyramid should be a strict meritocracy and teams should have to qualify for the CL on merit, and then on the other hand complain when the qualification process takes an arguably more rigorous assessment of a team’s merit by looking at five seasons of achievement, rather than just one season! The fallout from the Super League is exposing so many as holding contradictory beliefs. You still have to earn your strong coefficient from performance in previous seasons.

Here's who would have potentially benefited from the two coefficient spots in each of the last five seasons and the next season:

CL 21/22: Liverpool (9th), Arsenal (10th), Dortmund (13th), Roma and Spurs (=14th) are as it stands not currently qualifying for the CL domestically, but are qualifying for another European competition
CL 20/21: Arsenal (11th) and Spurs (14th) [or Lyon (15th)]
CL 19/20: Sevilla (7th) and Arsenal (9th)
CL 18/19: Sevilla (6th) and Arsenal (9th)
CL 17/18: Arsenal (11th), Schalke (14th), Bayer Leverkusen (16th), and Shakhtar Donetsk (18th)
CL 16/17: Chelsea (5th), Valencia (12th), Schalke (13th), Zenit (15th) and Manchester United (20th)

Qualifying will be tweaked so its not quite accurate, but good enough to get an idea, but listed are clubs with the highest coefficient who did not qualify for the CL group stage through other means. Clubs struck through were excluded for not qualifying for any European competition, despite having a strong coefficient.

I know people like to lampoon Arsenal, but they will have earned this by consistently progressing in Europe. If anything this system should help ensure that all teams, just as Arsenal have, take the Europa League and the new Europa Conference League seriously, as you can qualify for the Champions League through strong, consistent European performances. The only change I would perhaps make is to limit the number of teams from a particular association that can qualify through this method to one. If that was the case, Lyon would have qualified instead of Spurs in 20/21. Changes may also be needed to how coefficients are earned in future.

To me at least, the potential interest in CL qualification is by seeing teams make it for the first time or on a rare occasion, and not in seeing one of the top teams in recent years missing out. This wouldn't take away from that.
 
Raees said:
Unless the formula involves meritocracy then it is doomed to fail and what would be the point? It would just be similar to the Champions League.
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Lets not pretend the current CL format is fair, the new format even less so. And the main idea behind this proposed Super League was to replace the Champions League and put the power in the clubs hands vs UEFA. Which without the closed shop bullshit wouldn't have been the worst idea if the ECA or similar had been involved.
 


Highly recommended the Football Cliches podcast if you are ready to laugh at the short Super League era already.
 
stevoc said:
Lets not pretend the current CL format is fair, the new format even less so. And the main idea behind this proposed Super League was to replace the Champions League and put the power in the clubs hands vs UEFA. Which without the closed shop bullshit wouldn't have been the worst idea if the ECA or similar had been involved.
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Who do you think has forced the hands of UEFA or been complicit in making the champions league more unfair? Yes those same clubs you wanted to take ‘power’ away from UEFA.
 
Raees said:
Who do you think has forced the hands of UEFA or been complicit in making the champions league more unfair? Yes those same clubs you wanted to take ‘power’ away from UEFA.
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Well exactly UEFA are as corrupt and greedy as anyone, maybe more so seeing as they don't actually bring anything to the table. They've caved in at every stage and given every concession possible to avoid a Super League over the last 20 years. Just so they don't get cut out of the loop and can still rake in money from the CL.

If the proposed Super League had been similar to the PL where all stakeholders have a vote. Maybe as i said the 200 or so members of the ECA or even just all the teams that qualified for it that season all had a vote in the running of it and the distribution of money made from it. Then that wouldn't have been the worst idea.
 
2cents said:
Not sure that European fans were their primary market.
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Maybe not mid to long term but short term? Definitely. You don't conquer a foreign market over night, especially not if it's already as capitalized as the American one. NHL, NBA and MLB each have more than twice the revenue of the EPL. That's the kind of competition the ESL would've faced in the US. Of course they would've attempted that but they needed the European market as a solid basis they can trust on.

This was a rather typical case of a badly designed product developed in a top down innovation manner not inspired by actual demand. In their bubble they most likely just completely miscalculated how and why people watch football and what their priorities are. They thought they could take their audiences in their domestic leagues and take them over to the ESL when in reality large proportions of this interest stemmed from people being engaged with big clubs due to those being in a competition with their very own teams.

They probably knew there would be backlash but saw themselves as innovators in a "if I asked people would they wanted, I would've produced faster horses instead of cars" type of way when in reality, they tried to push a product down their throat that they not only is out of touch with their desires but would also come with very negative consequences to things they value very highly.
 
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