European Super League

Do you want the ESL to happen?

  • Total voters
    1,921
  • Poll closed .
Zehner said:
Maybe not mid to long term but short term? Definitely. You don't conquer a foreign market over night, especially not if it's already as capitalized as the American one. NHL, NBA and MLB each have more than twice the revenue of the EPL. That's the kind of competition the ESL would've faced in the US. Of course they would've attempted that but they needed the European market as a solid basis they can trust on.

This was a rather typical case of a badly designed product developed in a top down innovation manner not inspired by actual demand. In their bubble they most likely just completely miscalculated how and why people watch football and what their priorities are. They thought they could take their audiences in their domestic leagues and take them over to the ESL when in reality large proportions of this interest stemmed from people being engaged with big clubs due to those being in a competition with their very own teams.

They probably knew there would be backlash but saw themselves as innovators in a "if I asked people would they wanted, I would've produced faster horses instead of cars" type of way when in reality, they tried to push a product down their throat that they not only is out of touch with their desires but would also come with very negative consequences to things they value very highly.
Click to expand...

Actually it was Asian markets I had in mind.
 
I really thought ESL would be great (if only it had promotion/relegation).

ESL: City, United, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal, Spurs.

Champions League: Leicester, West Ham, Everton, Aston Villa

Europa League: Wolverhampton, Leeds, Crystal Palace, Southampton..

:p
 
2cents said:
Actually it was Asian markets I had in mind.
Click to expand...

Not too different, is it? Why would the Asian market suddenly be all in for the ESL over night? The European clubs are targeting Asia since 15+ years already. The ESL format might be better to monetize there but billions of people don't just change their habits and preferences over night.

One way or another, the European market is the one they're depending most on, at least in the beginning years of the competition. They've miscalculated big time how the fans would react to it. They would probably have ran out of money before they could reap the fruits had they continued this venture.
 
Karel Podolsky said:
I really thought ESL would be great (if only it had promotion/relegation).

ESL: City, United, Chelsea, Liverpool, Arsenal, Spurs.

Champions League: Leicester, West Ham, Everton, Aston Villa

Europa League: Wolverhampton, Leeds, Crystal Palace, Southampton..

:p
Click to expand...

That's something that's been annoying me all this week. It wouldn't be promotion/relegation.

You don't get promoted to or relegated from the CL, you qualify or get knocked out. Semantics I know but.
 
Zehner said:
Not too different, is it? Why would the Asian market suddenly be all in for the ESL over night? The European clubs are targeting Asia since 15+ years already. The ESL format might be better to monetize there but billions of people don't just change their habits and preferences over night.

One way or another, the European market is the one they're depending most on, at least in the beginning years of the competition. They've miscalculated big time how the fans would react to it. They would probably have ran out of money before they could reap the fruits had they continued this venture.
Click to expand...

I guess the thinking is that Asian fans don’t give a shite about sides like Burnley or the prestige associated with certain competitions. They’re only interested in a very limited number of clubs and would like to see them play each other more often.

I don’t know to what degree that is true, but it may have been a factor in this.
 
Giggsyking said:
How did the league become more profitable?
Click to expand...


Area you serious?

More people watch the PL than the Portuguese league so the TV deal is bigger.

More viewers means more advertising and more sponsors which means more cash.

Porto are looking at something in the region of hundreds of millions for a 10 year deal.

The last three year TV deal for the PL was worth 4 or 5 billion I think, so even the mid table PL clubs have a lot of financial power. That's why they charge us a fortune when we try to buy their players.
 
sullydnl said:
Click to expand...


I don't see why JP Morgan would feel the need to explain themselves. They are not a footballing institution or otherwise involved in the game. They agreed to fund a project that ultimately didn't pan out, but that must happen all the time. No money changed hands, as far I can tell.
They are probably involved in activities 100x worse than the Super League without ever explaining anything.
 
Fans are pretty much missing the point with all these protests. If you really want to protest against the owners it really needs to be more than just a protest march.

If Arsenal fans protest against the Kroenke's then carry on backing Arteta and 'the process' alongside the likes of Bellerin, Holding and Xhaka then what's the point? That manager and those players are at the club due to the owners lack of ambition, what's the point on protesting if they carry on backing their symptons?

Same with United if you protest against The Glazers then the season ends and you're content with comfortable top 4 then you're also playing into their hands. If they were offered your current domestic situation for the next 10 years they'll sign for it right here right now.

If you really want to make a stand against these leeches it will take more than just protests, boycott merchandise, don't attend matches and refuse to back their symptoms, those things are what will really hurt both owners, protesting is effectively voided if you then line their pockets and/or play into their hands.
 
Withnail said:
Area you serious?

More people watch the PL than the Portuguese league so the TV deal is bigger.

More viewers means more advertising and more sponsors which means more cash.

Porto are looking at something in the region of hundreds of millions for a 10 year deal.

The last three year TV deal for the PL was worth 4 or 5 billion I think, so even the mid table PL clubs have a lot of financial power. That's why they charge us a fortune when we try to buy their players.
Click to expand...
That is my point. I was asking a rhetorical question. More people watch the PL than the Portuguese league because of Man Utd, and the other big teams. Not because of Wolves.
 
Giggsyking said:
That is my point. I was asking a rhetorical question. More people watch the PL than the Portuguese league because of Man Utd, and the other big teams. Not because of Wolves.
Click to expand...

If the top teams got all the money and the likes of Wolves got feck all, then the the league in general would be less competitive and the overall product would be inferior.
 
Giggsyking said:
That is my point. I was asking a rhetorical question. More people watch the PL than the Portuguese league because of Man Utd, and the other big teams. Not because of Wolves.
Click to expand...
Theres a bit of a chicken and egg situation there. Does the PL have more big teams because of money from tv deals or does it have more money from tv deals because of so many big teams. I'd say its a bit of a feedback loop.
And the way people talk about the league helps tbh. Burnley are basically given a big thumbs up and people talk about how well they're doing on their budget with this squad and how great their workrate and organisation is. Reality is they're pretty run of the mill. But it gives the impression that they're an interesting challenge, an interesting contrast to the Manchester Uniteds and Liverpools of the league. And they go some way towards backing that up with the distribution towards tv rights. It all helps.
I'd say in theory it could have been difficult to really sell a premier league with Leicester as the biggest team in the league, with arsenal and spurs challenging. But people loved it, everywhere. I dont think the financial value of the premier league has any objective basis in the quality relative to other leagues in europe. Its all salesmanship and bluster. Its created an seriously unequal balance of power and is probably going to hurt the champions league going forward. Or more than it already has really. I'm not sure what the solution to that is tbh. I think la liga in particular has to rethink how they sell the idea of their league, they could and should be able to compete with the premier league.
 
Mike Smalling said:
I don't see why JP Morgan would feel the need to explain themselves. They are not a footballing institution or otherwise involved in the game. They agreed to fund a project that ultimately didn't pan out, but that must happen all the time. No money changed hands, as far I can tell.
They are probably involved in activities 100x worse than the Super League without ever explaining anything.
Click to expand...
I don't think they need to either but this has become a huge public story and their name is getting mentioned, so it's probably in their best interest to
distance themselves to avoid any residual reputational damage.
 
BeforeKeanetherewasRobson said:
If there's one good thing to come out of the ESL, hopefully it's a change in owners and ownership structures.

Chelsea, Arsenal... hopefully more to come.
Click to expand...

Very interesting.

Now we will be able to see which is the real power fans have to change things on their own.
 
BeforeKeanetherewasRobson said:
If there's one good thing to come out of the ESL, hopefully it's a change in owners and ownership structures.

Chelsea, Arsenal... hopefully more to come.

Click to expand...


So along with United fans, Arsenal fans are continuing the protests also fair play to them.

I imagine it won't be long before City fans come out in their tens to protest against Mansour and their UAE owners. Yeah not fecking likely.
 
GatoLoco said:
Very interesting.

Now we will be able to see which is the real power fans have to change things on their own.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure it's on their own. Owners like the Glazers are too thick skinned to be bothered by a few thousand fans protesting and Presidents like Perez are too egotistical, ignorant, hypocritical and mindbogglingly stupid to care what anyone else in the world thinks.

It still needs social media, media, sponsor pressure, Govts as well but I'm not sure any of them will do anything without fan pressure so the more protests the better.

You just never know.

imo.
 
stevoc said:
So along with United fans, Arsenal fans are continuing the protests also fair play to them.

I imagine it won't be long before City fans come out in their tens to protest against Mansour and their UAE owners. Yeah not fecking likely.
Click to expand...
Both of those sets of fans already hated their owners. They’re using this to reinforce the message - our owners had a lot of credit in the bank with the fans. It’s very different.

We can’t pretend those protests are because of the Super League alone, that was just the final straw.
 
Ecstatic said:
Click to expand...

Nice hyperbole, Uefa and fifa are full of corrupt people who would be in prison were it not for the protection of the opaque structures of these organisations, not to mention being based in that secretive jurisdiction of Switzerland (which I’m sure is entirely for footballing reasons)...

I know emotions are high over the ESL, but I don’t like how uefa and fifa are coming out of it almost as good guys, one thing I agree with the ESL view is that we need a wholesale change in how the game is governed. Too many politicians and bureaucrats who don’t even care about the game or fans, just an opportunity to make lots of money.
 
redNATION said:
Nice hyperbole, Uefa and fifa are full of corrupt people who would be in prison were it not for the protection of the opaque structures of these organisations, not to mention being based in that secretive jurisdiction of Switzerland (which I’m sure is entirely for footballing reasons)...

I know emotions are high over the ESL, but I don’t like how uefa and fifa are coming out of it almost as good guys, one thing I agree with the ESL view is that we need a wholesale change in how the game is governed. Too many politicians and bureaucrats who don’t even care about the game or fans, just an opportunity to make lots of money.
Click to expand...

Football is where it is thanks to UEFA and FIFA. Like any successful organisation it has attracted crooks and con-men. But their role is vital.
 



Summary:
  • Bruce Buck was the one involved in discussions for a Super League, other conspirators were never convinced Abramovich was keen on the SL. Particularly with respect to Russian Teams and Sponsors in the CL.
  • Organisers of the Super League were more interested in negotiating with Levy than Spurs, he has championed the Super League idea for a while
  • Henry and Glazer started speaking regularly to each other when City started posing a threat, especially when City suppoesdly breached FFP. Kroenke was another willing ally
  • The idea that Chelsea signed up late seems untrue, Buck concluded that the elite clubs had to sign up with Real Madrid or risk being left behind, implying to me at least that he was involved in discussions
  • Ed Woodward supposedly acted as the person who was a realist about discussions, what Soriano (City) would call Dr No. Woodward caved the day after the Super League was announced and called Glazer to say he couldn't back the project, as Neville was talking about him Woodward had already quit.
  • Conversely, European sources say Woodward hadn't opposed the SL and only resigned when the plan went awry
  • Woodward expected the SL to succeed despite him resigning and is now wondering if he acted too hastily
  • City were the club Perez was talking about when they said one club had no interest an it affected all the rest
  • City could've aligned themselves with PSG/Bayern but those two are regarded as Qatari funded and so siding with them seemed unthinkable. FFP was also a factor, in that they still hold a grudge against UEFA
  • None of the organisers expected the government intervening, the UK's Envoy to the Gulf contacted the UAE to warn it could damage Abu Dhabi's relationship with the UK. Abu Dhabi decided it did not want it to become a diplomatic incident
  • InHouse Communications, the PR company, was brought in because it was perceived to be close to the PM, after being involved in his 2008 London Mayoral campaign
  • The bigger problem was that none of the Chairmen/senior board members wanted to execute the PR strategy that had been planned.
  • Abramovich and Mansour never spoke anyway but Levy was considered not important enough to take the lead and Kroenke was not part of the core group led by the Glazers and Perez
  • The Glazers did not want to go in front of cameras and Henry was not keen either, nobody wanted to be the one to do it, despite people telling them they needed to convince the public
  • The SL found out via the media that City/Chelsea were pulling out
  • The organisation was done via Zoom/Whatsapp/phone calls. One group of the owners, then a separate one for the executives. Some privates groups of certain groupings too.
  • When it was announced, a lot of the clubs were finding out details from the press release rather than from discussions beforehand
  • Chelsea started telling department heads on Friday that they were joining but the language made clear that it had been some time in planning
  • Chelsea is owned for reputational purposes, like City. Chelsea's directors realised that if they tried to stick it out, Abramovich's reputation could be ruined with the supporters and that could not be allowed to happen
  • City had nothing to lose by withdrawing as they don't really have a relation with other clubs in the PL. Soriano gets on better with Perez
  • The Super League was being talked about in 2016, Ed Woodward and Ivan Gazidis were invited to give their opinions on it by others in the ECA. Woodward showed little enthusiasm
  • Bayern were keen enough on the idea in 2016 to check if they could leave in the Bundesliga, but there was strong resistance from their supervisory board and it never went anywhere
  • Part of the reason the Big 6 made the leap is because the 14 dislike them more now under Masters than when Scudamore was in charge
  • Klopp has made his feelings clear to Gordon about the SL, FSG were warned about this beforehand and Klopp is still disappointed despite apologies
  • A foreign Liverpool player was confused before Leeds as to why they were being booed
  • Henderson mobilised Liverpool opposition after the Leeds game, his leadership was amazing and the rest of the players were all behind him. All of them regard the CL as the pinnacle and did not like the closed shop
  • A lot of the Arsenal players dislike Kroenke, going back to the pay-cut and subsequent sacking of club staff. The players are increasingly questioning the owner
  • Levy was infuriated in 2016 when the other 5 of the big 6 were invited to meet an executive from the International Champions Cup
  • Joe Lewis, the Spurs owner, seems to have been part of the group and likely in on this. But Levy was the one involved in negotiations and was very intent on joining
  • The SL organisers insist they were deadly serious about financing the women's game to an extent that would make it more on a level with the mens game
  • The money is regarded as absolutely necessary for Madrid because of their stadium and wanting Haaland/Mbappe
  • One board member from a Super League club abstained from the vote in the board on joining because he was so torn
  • The potential bans of clubs from the CL/EL are regarded as not financially sensible as these clubs are the main money generators, but there is anger from a lot of clubs on the continent
  • Agnelli is denying resigning but it does not seem sustainable for a man hated by UEFA and Serie A to be in charge
  • Woodward is leaving in the summer, ignore the PR spin about it being the end of the year
 
BlackShark_80 said:



Summary:
  • Bruce Buck was the one involved in discussions for a Super League, other conspirators were never convinced Abramovich was keen on the SL. Particularly with respect to Russian Teams and Sponsors in the CL.
  • Organisers of the Super League were more interested in negotiating with Levy than Spurs, he has championed the Super League idea for a while
  • Henry and Glazer started speaking regularly to each other when City started posing a threat, especially when City suppoesdly breached FFP. Kroenke was another willing ally
  • The idea that Chelsea signed up late seems untrue, Buck concluded that the elite clubs had to sign up with Real Madrid or risk being left behind, implying to me at least that he was involved in discussions
  • Ed Woodward supposedly acted as the person who was a realist about discussions, what Soriano (City) would call Dr No. Woodward caved the day after the Super League was announced and called Glazer to say he couldn't back the project, as Neville was talking about him Woodward had already quit.
  • Conversely, European sources say Woodward hadn't opposed the SL and only resigned when the plan went awry
  • Woodward expected the SL to succeed despite him resigning and is now wondering if he acted too hastily
  • City were the club Perez was talking about when they said one club had no interest an it affected all the rest
  • City could've aligned themselves with PSG/Bayern but those two are regarded as Qatari funded and so siding with them seemed unthinkable. FFP was also a factor, in that they still hold a grudge against UEFA
  • None of the organisers expected the government intervening, the UK's Envoy to the Gulf contacted the UAE to warn it could damage Abu Dhabi's relationship with the UK. Abu Dhabi decided it did not want it to become a diplomatic incident
  • InHouse Communications, the PR company, was brought in because it was perceived to be close to the PM, after being involved in his 2008 London Mayoral campaign
  • The bigger problem was that none of the Chairmen/senior board members wanted to execute the PR strategy that had been planned.
  • Abramovich and Mansour never spoke anyway but Levy was considered not important enough to take the lead and Kroenke was not part of the core group led by the Glazers and Perez
  • The Glazers did not want to go in front of cameras and Henry was not keen either, nobody wanted to be the one to do it, despite people telling them they needed to convince the public
  • The SL found out via the media that City/Chelsea were pulling out
  • The organisation was done via Zoom/Whatsapp/phone calls. One group of the owners, then a separate one for the executives. Some privates groups of certain groupings too.
  • When it was announced, a lot of the clubs were finding out details from the press release rather than from discussions beforehand
  • Chelsea started telling department heads on Friday that they were joining but the language made clear that it had been some time in planning
  • Chelsea is owned for reputational purposes, like City. Chelsea's directors realised that if they tried to stick it out, Abramovich's reputation could be ruined with the supporters and that could not be allowed to happen
  • City had nothing to lose by withdrawing as they don't really have a relation with other clubs in the PL. Soriano gets on better with Perez
  • The Super League was being talked about in 2016, Ed Woodward and Ivan Gazidis were invited to give their opinions on it by others in the ECA. Woodward showed little enthusiasm
  • Bayern were keen enough on the idea in 2016 to check if they could leave in the Bundesliga, but there was strong resistance from their supervisory board and it never went anywhere
  • Part of the reason the Big 6 made the leap is because the 14 dislike them more now under Masters than when Scudamore was in charge
  • Klopp has made his feelings clear to Gordon about the SL, FSG were warned about this beforehand and Klopp is still disappointed despite apologies
  • A foreign Liverpool player was confused before Leeds as to why they were being booed
  • Henderson mobilised Liverpool opposition after the Leeds game, his leadership was amazing and the rest of the players were all behind him. All of them regard the CL as the pinnacle and did not like the closed shop
  • A lot of the Arsenal players dislike Kroenke, going back to the pay-cut and subsequent sacking of club staff. The players are increasingly questioning the owner
  • Levy was infuriated in 2016 when the other 5 of the big 6 were invited to meet an executive from the International Champions Cup
  • Joe Lewis, the Spurs owner, seems to have been part of the group and likely in on this. But Levy was the one involved in negotiations and was very intent on joining
  • The SL organisers insist they were deadly serious about financing the women's game to an extent that would make it more on a level with the mens game
  • The money is regarded as absolutely necessary for Madrid because of their stadium and wanting Haaland/Mbappe
  • One board member from a Super League club abstained from the vote in the board on joining because he was so torn
  • The potential bans of clubs from the CL/EL are regarded as not financially sensible as these clubs are the main money generators, but there is anger from a lot of clubs on the continent
  • Agnelli is denying resigning but it does not seem sustainable for a man hated by UEFA and Serie A to be in charge
  • Woodward is leaving in the summer, ignore the PR spin about it being the end of the year
Click to expand...

Thats a narrative buster. Especially with the Chelsea spin
 
Meanwhile per other thread quotes from Perez:







Looks to me like a new variant of the super league will be back soon. Probably with Merit based qualification of some kind and potential access to all European leagues one way or another.
 
Mb194dc said:
Meanwhile per other thread quotes from Perez:



Click to expand...


katyburns-cmforum-092020-ph02
 
Ceferin is a bit of a hypocrite. He talks a lot about values and such, but when necessary, it doesn't bother him to involve politics in sport or praise scum like Nasser Al-Khelaifi.
 
BlackShark_80 said:



Summary:
  • Bruce Buck was the one involved in discussions for a Super League, other conspirators were never convinced Abramovich was keen on the SL. Particularly with respect to Russian Teams and Sponsors in the CL.
  • Organisers of the Super League were more interested in negotiating with Levy than Spurs, he has championed the Super League idea for a while
  • Henry and Glazer started speaking regularly to each other when City started posing a threat, especially when City suppoesdly breached FFP. Kroenke was another willing ally
  • The idea that Chelsea signed up late seems untrue, Buck concluded that the elite clubs had to sign up with Real Madrid or risk being left behind, implying to me at least that he was involved in discussions
  • Ed Woodward supposedly acted as the person who was a realist about discussions, what Soriano (City) would call Dr No. Woodward caved the day after the Super League was announced and called Glazer to say he couldn't back the project, as Neville was talking about him Woodward had already quit.
  • Conversely, European sources say Woodward hadn't opposed the SL and only resigned when the plan went awry
  • Woodward expected the SL to succeed despite him resigning and is now wondering if he acted too hastily
  • City were the club Perez was talking about when they said one club had no interest an it affected all the rest
  • City could've aligned themselves with PSG/Bayern but those two are regarded as Qatari funded and so siding with them seemed unthinkable. FFP was also a factor, in that they still hold a grudge against UEFA
  • None of the organisers expected the government intervening, the UK's Envoy to the Gulf contacted the UAE to warn it could damage Abu Dhabi's relationship with the UK. Abu Dhabi decided it did not want it to become a diplomatic incident
  • InHouse Communications, the PR company, was brought in because it was perceived to be close to the PM, after being involved in his 2008 London Mayoral campaign
  • The bigger problem was that none of the Chairmen/senior board members wanted to execute the PR strategy that had been planned.
  • Abramovich and Mansour never spoke anyway but Levy was considered not important enough to take the lead and Kroenke was not part of the core group led by the Glazers and Perez
  • The Glazers did not want to go in front of cameras and Henry was not keen either, nobody wanted to be the one to do it, despite people telling them they needed to convince the public
  • The SL found out via the media that City/Chelsea were pulling out
  • The organisation was done via Zoom/Whatsapp/phone calls. One group of the owners, then a separate one for the executives. Some privates groups of certain groupings too.
  • When it was announced, a lot of the clubs were finding out details from the press release rather than from discussions beforehand
  • Chelsea started telling department heads on Friday that they were joining but the language made clear that it had been some time in planning
  • Chelsea is owned for reputational purposes, like City. Chelsea's directors realised that if they tried to stick it out, Abramovich's reputation could be ruined with the supporters and that could not be allowed to happen
  • City had nothing to lose by withdrawing as they don't really have a relation with other clubs in the PL. Soriano gets on better with Perez
  • The Super League was being talked about in 2016, Ed Woodward and Ivan Gazidis were invited to give their opinions on it by others in the ECA. Woodward showed little enthusiasm
  • Bayern were keen enough on the idea in 2016 to check if they could leave in the Bundesliga, but there was strong resistance from their supervisory board and it never went anywhere
  • Part of the reason the Big 6 made the leap is because the 14 dislike them more now under Masters than when Scudamore was in charge
  • Klopp has made his feelings clear to Gordon about the SL, FSG were warned about this beforehand and Klopp is still disappointed despite apologies
  • A foreign Liverpool player was confused before Leeds as to why they were being booed
  • Henderson mobilised Liverpool opposition after the Leeds game, his leadership was amazing and the rest of the players were all behind him. All of them regard the CL as the pinnacle and did not like the closed shop
  • A lot of the Arsenal players dislike Kroenke, going back to the pay-cut and subsequent sacking of club staff. The players are increasingly questioning the owner
  • Levy was infuriated in 2016 when the other 5 of the big 6 were invited to meet an executive from the International Champions Cup
  • Joe Lewis, the Spurs owner, seems to have been part of the group and likely in on this. But Levy was the one involved in negotiations and was very intent on joining
  • The SL organisers insist they were deadly serious about financing the women's game to an extent that would make it more on a level with the mens game
  • The money is regarded as absolutely necessary for Madrid because of their stadium and wanting Haaland/Mbappe
  • One board member from a Super League club abstained from the vote in the board on joining because he was so torn
  • The potential bans of clubs from the CL/EL are regarded as not financially sensible as these clubs are the main money generators, but there is anger from a lot of clubs on the continent
  • Agnelli is denying resigning but it does not seem sustainable for a man hated by UEFA and Serie A to be in charge
  • Woodward is leaving in the summer, ignore the PR spin about it being the end of the year
Click to expand...

Great post, thanks.
 
I do not want to brag but when everybody was having doubts about the current MU manager, I was fully confident that he was the best choice to fill in the boots of sir Ferguson .Big clubs and lesser clubs should unite cause they live off each other and should not cave in to any PRO testers out there to ruin what is left.
 
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