More rumours circulating
Erik ten Hag | 2024/25
- Thread starter Cheimoon
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik and Imran are here to talk about a frustrating 2 points dropped at Crystal Palace. They then discuss the regeneration of Old Trafford. Finally, Nik is joined by special guest Michael Statham from the Football Oranje podcast - who gives us a more in depth look at our EL opposition FC Twente, and then runs through the (many) Dutch connections currently at United.
Our xG game by game:
United 2.43 v 0.44 Fulham - we won that game anyway
Brighton 2.09 v 1.43 United - they actually had a higher xG and won. Best case that game should have been a draw, but looking from purely statistical POV we'd draw this game 2-2 only 4 times out of 10.
United 1.52 v 1.50 Liverpool - this is extremely misleading because 1.4 of our xG game when the game was 0-3 and done. We lose that game 10 times out of 10.
Southampton 1.12 v 2.67 United - we won that game anyway. If anything it was more comfortable than that.
Palace 1.01 v 1.70 United - again, we drew that game, statistically we win it 7 times out of 10 due but it's not that obvious
You may argue we should maybe have extra 2 points here on the balance of how this season has progressed so far, Palace being the only game where our lack of finishing actually cost us points.
Agreed.
Another gripe I have is talking about missed chances, as if the 3/4 genuinely good opportunities we miss in a game are the difference between us getting a result or not. This isn't even accurate, because if you argue that if those chances go in we get a result, then you need to look at the chances we are STILL conceding. Such as, Brighton could have been 3-0 up before we score (Welbeck hits the bar from 5 yards out and Milner has one cleared off the line), Liverpool should have put 5 past us (Salah missed a great opportunity immediately after the 3rd and Szoboszlai mucked about instead of just scoring), Southampton miss a penalty just before we score and then even against Palace we miss a few and then so do they. Just talking about our own missed chances doesn't accurately reflect how the games might have gone looking at other teams chances too.
Finally, I'm also fed up lamenting three chances a game as the definition of being clinical or not. Just watch other teams such as Liverpool, Chelsea, Spurs, Arsenal, City etc. It's multiple opportunities a game, very good scoring chances. We have seen it once, against Palace. We don't consistently play games making big opportunities where I would say 'yeah it's just bad finishing letting us down'. We clearly don't create anywhere near enough and that's down to coaching and management for me.
Pretty fair assessment of our league games so far. I’d agree with the conclusion that the game against Crystal Palace is the only we should have won but didn’t.
Zirkee stopped a defo goal that would have put United 2-1 up against Brighton. I don’t think I have ever seen a goal disallowed for that because it never happens.
You said XG after pool leading doesn’t matter, well United going 2-1 up at that time could of changed the ending and 95th minute winner.
Like I said, I don’t like XG, applying it game on game is not great, but you can’t Select games like pool and say “well that XG doesn’t really tell the full story” and ignore a massive issue with the Brighton one at the same time.
How about we just throw xG in the bin.
I don’t like it, it’s used wrong all the time , it really is the emperors new clothes of shallow football analysis.
Sure, but if that's your argument then he should have gone in Summer, as he would have done had he actually delivered a 14th place finish.
The fact he's here is because him fluking an eight place finish and the Cup was respectable* despite the performances given the injury situation, but results is the metric that saved him and its only fair if, therefore, results are the metric he continues to be judged by. And, well, the results have continued to be crap.
*I do not actually think last season was ok, even with mitigation, and I'm amazed he survived it. The fact that he only achieved a season that crap and not significantly crapper with huge, huge gobs of luck is hardly worth thinking about.
The new board are far more likely to do this than just sack him and then panic like the last regime did. The last thing you want are knee-jerk reactions when it comes to appointing a new manager.
It's fecking horrendous, and used by people with agendas to further their agenda. But then when it's used against the agenda driven folk to counter their agenda driven arguments, they don't like that. So, agendas.
Scrambling around looking for a new manager again.
Expected a little more competence from this 'super team'.
Expected a little more competence from this 'super team'.
I would sincerely hope they're sounding out potential successors as this just isn't going to work.
Lets see how he does in the next few games, can the team click. We see the underlying stats improve of less shots against, much more touches inside the oppositions box, more possession but so far we're no better off points/position wise.
I don't see he'll be good enough or have enough time, we've already spent huge amounts and now into a third season looking like a midtable team way off top 4, each game looking difficult and a mountain to climb through lack of goals. If we carry on in this manner I'm sure he's gone soon.
I don't see he'll be good enough or have enough time, we've already spent huge amounts and now into a third season looking like a midtable team way off top 4, each game looking difficult and a mountain to climb through lack of goals. If we carry on in this manner I'm sure he's gone soon.
How do you know we’re scrambling? Your tone suggests very little belief in the new structure, so I doubt your sincerity.
We looked around in the summer and we still pursued with this guy.
Some seem desperate to discredit INEOS already. I've noticed it a-lot on here recently.
It’s just weird. I’d rather be hopeful and positive about them, because the on the pitch stuff isn’t giving me much to believe in.
I just can't understand the thinking with giving him a new contract. Why not hold off and see how he improves, or not? But now it will cost more when he is inevitably sacked.
We didn’t give him a new contract, just exercised the one year extension option on his current one.
I believe what I see with my eyes than some nonsense statistic open to interpretation. The way we play has urgency for maybe a quarter of the game and then reverts to slow passing no movement and poor decision making. Fix that and we may get somewhere.
Honestly, we start the games well, minor the Liverpool game.
But once that half time comes around, we come out as a completely different team and not a good one at that.
But once that half time comes around, we come out as a completely different team and not a good one at that.
My mistake. It still means paying off that extra year?
Way I see it, you're either a master motivator or a genius tactician to succeed at Man Utd. Some managers are both, Ten Hag is neither.
But it's in an article on the internet and everything. Maybe you're looking but not seeing.
I kind of assumed he would be fired but I don’t think it’s that crazy that Ineos kept him on as they weren’t even all in their jobs yet. It’s not like they arrive at the club and then suddenly everything is fixed either.
What I find most interesting is Sir Jim told us himself that he felt ETH was trying to do too many things and so the coaching was suffering, now we can assume he is solely focused on coaching and I think, at least early signs despite results, show there’s something there.
Additionally for my own intrigue, we’ve moaned about the Glazers so long it will be nice to see a manager under both regimes to compare them.
I understand that he probably knows he's very close to the sack and so he's clinging on to any positives he can, managers often sound desperate and deluded when they know the end is near, but talking about "the success in the last two seasons" is just ridiculous. We could lose 5-0 on Sunday and he'd still be talking about how only City have won more than him since he arrived.
His first season? Yeah all in all that was a fine first campaign, top 4 and a trophy for the first time since Fergie retired. Performances fell off a cliff after we won the League Cup in early March but we managed to scrape our way to enough wins to finish 3rd.
Last season was a fecking disgrace though. Winning the FA Cup was fantastic of course, but it didn't make up for finishing 8th. It didn't make up for us looking second best almost every single game all season, we were an embarrassment. The only way you should be keeping your job if you finish 8th at Man Utd is if you also win the Champions League, and even then it's touch and go.
After the debacle last season he had to hit the ground running this year and he clearly hasn't. Performances have slightly improved, but results are just as bad as ever. I think Sunday will be the last time he's Utd manager at OT.
His first season? Yeah all in all that was a fine first campaign, top 4 and a trophy for the first time since Fergie retired. Performances fell off a cliff after we won the League Cup in early March but we managed to scrape our way to enough wins to finish 3rd.
Last season was a fecking disgrace though. Winning the FA Cup was fantastic of course, but it didn't make up for finishing 8th. It didn't make up for us looking second best almost every single game all season, we were an embarrassment. The only way you should be keeping your job if you finish 8th at Man Utd is if you also win the Champions League, and even then it's touch and go.
After the debacle last season he had to hit the ground running this year and he clearly hasn't. Performances have slightly improved, but results are just as bad as ever. I think Sunday will be the last time he's Utd manager at OT.
What's there to see? I can now predict how each game will go. Most likely we'll have decent starts, concede a goal and then revert to passing the ball with no purpose wasting a couple of chances. I don't understand why I keep my hopes up that something will be different when it's literally the same thing week in week out.
Just the change from last season of getting overrun, conceding too many chances and barely getting into their box and can our young/new attack settle into scoring and linking up better. Bruno needs resting though.
Smart decision to do it a month into the season rather than during the summer break.
You can easily make the same argument for most teams most matches, Twente could have easily scored 3 and been through clear on goal another time had they executed it better, in fact the only team that didn't miss chances to score against us was Barnsley, everyone else has been equally guilty of poor finishing as we have been, I cannot remember a game where we were that much better than the opponent that a draw or loss has been an unfair result at full time
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I've been staunchly pro ETH but I heard a podcast recently where they questioned a fan who wanted ETH in and they said "How will he turn it around? What physical change will he make?" And I was stumped, last year we had the injuries so I could say "When they're back..." but now we are only really missing a LB and Dalot is a pretty capable replacement there, it's not like we are playing Casemiro at LB.
There does seem to be a style of play but it's not one that's executed to a high level, if he said it will take a few years but I want to get us playing like my Ajax side and I need patience but he claimed "We can't play like that", so was clearly adapting his tactic to his squad yet we constantly don't look consistent or like we have a clue in the final third.
His odd loyalty to certain players, lack of information on injuries in pressers, odd & late substitutions and refusal to really pack out the midfield - I just don't know what even could change at this point for him to turn it around but obviously those above him must still believe or see a reason for this underperformance, I would love to know what that was.
There does seem to be a style of play but it's not one that's executed to a high level, if he said it will take a few years but I want to get us playing like my Ajax side and I need patience but he claimed "We can't play like that", so was clearly adapting his tactic to his squad yet we constantly don't look consistent or like we have a clue in the final third.
His odd loyalty to certain players, lack of information on injuries in pressers, odd & late substitutions and refusal to really pack out the midfield - I just don't know what even could change at this point for him to turn it around but obviously those above him must still believe or see a reason for this underperformance, I would love to know what that was.
I have one more to add. Planned substitutions instead of reacting to the match situation. 60 mins? take off zirkzee or a winger and replace with similar ones. 70mins? replace a central defender. 90mins? rotate your forward again. No change in plans, no change in shape or tactics. Just seems pre determined.
Thing is we need a few top games against high quality opponents to get our way and this might finally make it click for a longer run - but if this current form continues we might really need to make a quick managerial change.
The analysis that's been made about our game tactics and game management vs City vs Arsenal vs Liverpool etc. A lot is mentioned that their players individually had the experience to come out of tough situations if things on pitch look bleak. While ours have continued to make individual errors & put us behind - thing is if look at our gameplay and statistics compared to last season, it's been a huge development for the positive side. Yet it's down to manager to manage the players and game to try to cover up & prevent the same and same individual errors to happen.
If we need to have players who can recycle the possession more, then the manager needs to find that squad today that's capable for it.
The analysis that's been made about our game tactics and game management vs City vs Arsenal vs Liverpool etc. A lot is mentioned that their players individually had the experience to come out of tough situations if things on pitch look bleak. While ours have continued to make individual errors & put us behind - thing is if look at our gameplay and statistics compared to last season, it's been a huge development for the positive side. Yet it's down to manager to manage the players and game to try to cover up & prevent the same and same individual errors to happen.
If we need to have players who can recycle the possession more, then the manager needs to find that squad today that's capable for it.
But that would quite literally destroy any argument for keeping Ten Hag in a job. What are people going to cling to then?
We have better GD so far this season.
That Liverpool game is a joke. They had the biggest chance of the game with Szoboszlai having practically an open goal and, in the end, not even taking a shot. They should have had 4 or 5 if they didn't start dicking about. Palace seems off too. The cutback to Eze where he could have took a touch and picked his spot probably not even counted...perhaps that's how it works but those stats look way out of whack for what I watched.
There is noise building, no doubt about it. I never thought he would last past the start of November and I'm still surprised he was retained after last season. In honesty there could have been no complaints had he been sacked immediately after the 7-0, and that was a long time ago. That was a generational defeat.
He's put together a massively average squad at huge expense, that simply don't score goals, he has no obvious playing style after three years and while I don't think he's lost the dressing room I think he has fallen out with the likes of Garnacho. He also has a bad habit of deluding himself in public after poor performances, which is most weeks.
I'll be interested to see if Ineos act more decisively than the previous lot who would write off entire seasons before sacking dead ducks
He's put together a massively average squad at huge expense, that simply don't score goals, he has no obvious playing style after three years and while I don't think he's lost the dressing room I think he has fallen out with the likes of Garnacho. He also has a bad habit of deluding himself in public after poor performances, which is most weeks.
I'll be interested to see if Ineos act more decisively than the previous lot who would write off entire seasons before sacking dead ducks
Vs Brighton, Garnachos disallowed goal wipes out the XG from that chance is that correct? If so it goes to show how shit XG is in analysing games.
It’s fundamentally flawed, there are loads of well known examples of opportunities it doesn’t include. It’s similar to VAR, technology companies trying to profit from imposing technology where it doesn’t work. Drawing a flat line across a curved pitch surface and pretending they are making inch-perfect decisions, while at the other end of the freeze frame they’ve no idea whether the passer’s foot is in contact with the ball or possibly six inches away. It’s never even discussed.
Agree. We are starting to look a better team, I like the players and we have spells of each game where we play some sexy stuff. I do believe we are on the cusp of being a good side. But Ten Hag has proved that he isn't going to be able to take us to the next level of performance, or to get us performing at our current best more consistently.
I was mind blown they kept him in the summer as I expected a far more ruthless approach.