Any posts quoting soapy’s removed.
Erik ten Hag | 2024/25
- Thread starter Cheimoon
- Start date
Dead on
Ole signed the wrong players and didn't fix the midfield, he didn't have the squad to do what he wanted to do and jumped too early, he's said something like this himself. You cannot play front foot attacking football with players like Maguire and AWB at the back and a midfield consisting of Fred and McTominay. Looking back, signing Ronaldo was probably the worst decision of the lot.
That run was shocking but it was summed up in that Watford game, Tom Cleverly ran rings around that Utd midfield.
The exact same happened with Jose and Ole's followers. I hope we can all get to a point where the hero worshipping stops for managers. A manager should be given a reasonable amount of time, and when he shows he's not up to the task, he should be binned.
No one is saying he was a genius but there's no revisionism around Ole needed. The stats show he had us performing consistently as a top 4 team. As soon as he wasn't he got sacked.
Ten Hag has us performing consistently like a bottom half side, yet he's still here. It's ridiculous.
Seeing a lot of Ole love the last few days, and what I find funny is back then Ole was "all vibes no tactics", and ETH was supposedly this modern manager who's a tactical guru. Now people are like ETH is "no vibes and no tactics"
PS : Pogba was super underrated. Our best CM in the last few years, but was hated because of his price tag/expectations + injury record + having Raiola as agent.
Lets not do this, just because we are shit now doesn't me we wasn't shit then.
Both are shit, this is Manchester United and we should be challenging for the top trophies.
Pogba wasn't hated because of expectations or any of that other junk, he was just turd 90% of the time.
This really does not explain why he'd be an improvement on EtH, which is the task in hand.
Losing a European final and having some encouraging percentage is a return to Solskjaer. As for PSG, come on. An affluent Celtic.
We're trying to get back on our perch. Not finish fourth and win absolutely nothing.
It really is. But it proves you don't have a solution. Reframing it does not change that fact.
Having Solskjaer, McKenna, Emery and god knows who else talked up by our fanbase is truly
depressing. It really is.
We need somebody who is competitive across the board. Title races and cup runs. Not either/or. We have the resources and we know it.
Fair enough, it may not be EtH. But it isn't who you are selling, either.
Under Ole, we did okay, but won nothing. We were a distant second (when traditional runners-up Liverpool had themselves a monumental injury crisis) and failed to win the EL.
Ole's predecessor did both.
What's embarrassing is so-called 'fans' shitting on our achievements.
Turning into ABUs.
Stop!
What folk are asking is who is the right man?
Liverpool battered his (now) lauded predecessor, who we suddenly need back despite his winning nothing.
How much time is reasonable? The same as before, or slightly more? How do we know he's not up to it? When they 'sell all the talent' and lose 5-1 to the bitters at Maine Road? Finish eighth? Win nothing? Lose the dressing room?
These are rhetorical devices, not serious questions but your post itself demands proper scrutiny.
One thing is for sure. We need to stop fighting each other with accusations like 'cult' and 'entitled'. I'm guilty, too, but enough is enough.
Nobody is the bestest fan ever and this thread alone is proof we haven't a clue who or what is needed.
This. Ole failing to win a trophy is a big red flag against him. In retrospect he should have been sacked after the Europa League final.
I agree on this. It was a surprising result, but who would complain about that?
But nonetheless it was the result of that season. My expectation was that after a surprising top four finish he should be able to follow with a deserved top four result - I didn't expect a better position in the end, but I did expect progress in terms of playing style, so that it would feel natural for United to finish there consistently again.
That's true. But before EtH arrived United had finished with 58 points in 6th place. In a season which was seen as the worst that could ever happen and should never be allowed to be repeated in the view of most fans (and rightfully so). In my opinion a reasonable expectation at that time would have been around 65 points in EtH's first season (first season in a new league, lots of squad issues to sort out, need to completely implement a new system from scratch.... lots of reasons to not expect too much improvement, but another top 6 finish). And in his second season a clear 70+ points finish and undoubted top four. Instead EtH got surprisingly 75 in his first season, but that didn't change my expectation for the second season.
Other managers have done much more with much less than Ten Hag has had, and yet you try in vain to use them doing so as reasons they cannot do more with more here. It doesn’t make sense.
No manager guarantees title races and cup runs. But our current reality is that Ten Hag can’t even guarantee bread and butter wins against relegation fodder or a top six finish. Maybe we need someone who can get us into the top four and CL before we can make the steps needed to get back to the top. Playing terrible football whilst languishing mid table with Ten Hag certainly isn’t going to do it, is it?
A 38 year old Milner ran rings around the United midfield just couple of weeks ago.
Seeing a lot of Ole love the last few days, and what I find funny is back then Ole was "all vibes no tactics", and ETH was supposedly this modern manager who's a tactical guru. Now people are like ETH is "no vibes and no tactics"
PS : Pogba was super underrated. Our best CM in the last few years, but was hated because of his price tag/expectations + injury record + having Raiola as agent.
Pogba was our most talented midfielder since Scholes, but it was his laziness, poor attitude, lack of involvement + the reasons you mentioned, who made him being hated, although hated is probably too much, I'd say criticized. On his day he could of won you matches by himself, but his day rarely came. And when he was poor, he was terrible.
You cannot judge a player's career or a manager's one only by highlights.
Eth has 2 trophies and 1 CL qualification to show for in 2 full seasons, Ole has only 2 CL qualifications in 3.
The quality of football is subjective, but I would say Ole has the edge.
Overall both were poor choices and ETH cannot finish the season here.
Apart from this paragraph, I agree wholeheartedly with your comment.
I agree on this. It was a surprising result, but who would complain about that?
But nonetheless it was the result of that season. My expectation was that after a surprising top four finish he should be able to follow with a deserved top four result - I didn't expect a better position in the end, but I did expect progress in terms of playing style, so that it would feel natural for United to finish there consistently again.
That's true. But before EtH arrived United had finished with 58 points in 6th place. In a season which was seen as the worst that could ever happen and should never be allowed to be repeated in the view of most fans (and rightfully so). In my opinion a reasonable expectation at that time would have been around 65 points in EtH's first season (first season in a new league, lots of squad issues to sort out, need to completely implement a new system from scratch.... lots of reasons to not expect too much improvement, but another top 6 finish). And in his second season a clear 70+ points finish and undoubted top four. Instead EtH got surprisingly 75 in his first season, but that didn't change my expectation for the second season.
Since SAF retired Utd have only got over the 70pt mark 4 times and only scored over 70 goals once and more regularly concede 40+ goals.
I also didn't expect a bigger second season, but I didn't expect the league finish to be so bad.
This season if he sees it out, probably has to be 70+ points and a top 4 finish. Otherwise he will be gone and if it's not looking likely any time soon, I think the club will pull the trigger.
The one thing that ETH has managed to do, somehow, is keep the players behind him, normally it is the attitude of the players that is the final straw for a manager, not just at utd, across the board, once the players lose faith (and it is obvious on the pitch) then there is no way back.
Given Casemiro's reaction to being subbed, given Ugarte's supposed comments about fitness, I am not sure if that ice is not now very thin.
I and clearly a lot of other posters, can see the writing is on the wall, it may be September, he may be given to Xmas, but he ain't going to be the utd manager by the end of the season, better to rip the band aid off now, make the most of the season, the January window and be in a better position into the summer.
And yes we can argue about who should be the next man in, is RVN good enough as a caretaker, do we take somebody just until the end of the season or take on a new manger such as Tuchel now despite him not being most peoples idea of a perfect solution for the long term?
I would also like to throw Carrick's name into the ring.
I would absolutely love for ETH to magically turn things around, for us to start playing well, actually performing to the quality we should be able to with this squad, that does not mean winning everything, we are nowhere near that level, but we shouldn't be struggling week in week out against, lets face it every team we have played over the last 18 months, I would love to eat humble pie, I do not really care a fig about ETH I care about Utd.
Given Casemiro's reaction to being subbed, given Ugarte's supposed comments about fitness, I am not sure if that ice is not now very thin.
I and clearly a lot of other posters, can see the writing is on the wall, it may be September, he may be given to Xmas, but he ain't going to be the utd manager by the end of the season, better to rip the band aid off now, make the most of the season, the January window and be in a better position into the summer.
And yes we can argue about who should be the next man in, is RVN good enough as a caretaker, do we take somebody just until the end of the season or take on a new manger such as Tuchel now despite him not being most peoples idea of a perfect solution for the long term?
I would also like to throw Carrick's name into the ring.
I would absolutely love for ETH to magically turn things around, for us to start playing well, actually performing to the quality we should be able to with this squad, that does not mean winning everything, we are nowhere near that level, but we shouldn't be struggling week in week out against, lets face it every team we have played over the last 18 months, I would love to eat humble pie, I do not really care a fig about ETH I care about Utd.
This is what we need to remember when analysing a manager because according to the logic being touted by many they wouldn't have touched Ancelotti from his Everton days but he's gone to Madrid and played a blinder there. Guys like Tuchel are winners, he's won the CL, was very competitive in England until it turned shit under the new ownership and went to Bayern just as Leverkusen were rising and Bayern's mistakes started catching up with them. The guy is competitive, we are a rich club and if we mix the two along with careful planning on recruitment there is no reason for us not to succeed.
Emery looks like he has developed a bit more, now knows this league and can go toe to toe with anyone on a good day. You can't say the same for Ten Hag who is regularly outclassed tactically. We can't keep a poor manager simply because there are no excellent replacements because there are various ladders between where we are and the very top. Give me a manager who knows how to get 3rd/4th in this league, couple that with what we can invest in a team and you have the recipe for sustained progression which puts you in the frame to attract the next super manager. We need to crawl before we can run, we aren't even achieving the basics with Erik.
Mate stop, he clearly wasn't good enough ffs. And "European Final"? Just say the EL Final. For me, winning the FA Cup is better than winning the EL. You can dress up ETH's reign too: 3rd place, 3 finals, 2 Cups.
We've appointed poorly since Fergie left, that's a fact. Not one of them deserves any sentimentality. Had Ole won the 2 cups that ETH did, you can guarantee the narrative among some would be that the 2 cup wins were brilliant.
People need to stop defending their favourite and just admit that all of them were poor to varying degrees. And Ole's only bad spell? I mean, that spell was particularly atrocious, but there were plenty of spells were we looked utter shite and were scraping through games. There was a reason in real-time why so many wanted him gone. This revisionism is crazy.
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I can understand Ole being loved given his history at the club, and whilst Mourinho divides opinion, he's had proper success so you can understand some thinking that if we stick with him, there'll be more success, even if you don't enjoy the football he serves up.
I really don't understand what ETH has done to deserve it.
Who are these managers and what have they won?
Honestly, I do get what you are driving at, but we are talking about the United manager, here. Emery, for example, has done well at Villa but sports a record we all know would be insufficient at ours.
With respect, a manager who does not aim for both has no business at a club like United.
I appreciate results may vary, and it may take time, but there is no excuse for a club as resourced as United behaving like Villa, Brighton or Spurs.
It probably is our level but it really should not be.
Emery going 'toe-to-toe' is backed by the fact finishing between a trophyless fourth and ninth is an acceptable finish for Aston Villa. It's the same for the likes of Brighton.
EtH's remit is to make Manchester United competitive across every competition they enter. The same went for his predecessors and any potential managerial candidate in future.
To this task, Emery's experience is failing at Arsenal and in Europe with PSG.
We need to go forward and not abide in circles.
I don't understand what any of them done to deserve it. This is from the perspective of them being Manchester United managers and nothing more. Tbh though, ETH has feck all 'supporters' left at this point. I think we all know where this is heading.
A new contract.
I can’t help but laugh almost hysterically at people who name him one of our worst ever signings, I think I saw some mug say he was as bad as Antony and that was in the last week
He was a fecking joy to watch when he was on it, which was more often than people want to admit.
I can’t help but laugh almost hysterically at people who name him one of our worst ever signings, I think I saw some mug say he was as bad as Antony and that was in the last week
He was a fecking joy to watch when he was on it, which was more often than people want to admit.
He also almost single handedly made sure Ole was made permanent manager. He was crazy good for quite a time after Mou left. It all went to shit later but we sure could do with a midfielder with that talent
I can’t help but laugh almost hysterically at people who name him one of our worst ever signings, I think I saw some mug say he was as bad as Antony and that was in the last week
He was a fecking joy to watch when he was on it, which was more often than people want to admit.
I saw someone on here recently claim that he was a worse signing than Antony.
I would be stunned if he's here come November.
How about an expectation to compete? To look like we can win, at home.
Mental illness.
It proves nothing of the sort. It just proves you think unrealistically highly of Ten Hag compared to other managers. Whenever a solution is suggested it is met with demands of the highest standards and yet our own manager is breaking all sorts of negative records. Like Tuchel not being good enough because he "lost a one horse race". As disingenuous as it gets and outright insulting to Leverkusen considering the season they had. Or Emery "only" achieving top 4 with Villa when nobody expected him to and our own guy doing much worse. Apparently if it's not Guardiola then it's not worth replacing Ten Hag with anybody else.
Stunned he's still here. Ok, maybe not stunned more like disappointed.
Ah, I see. Short of Klopp, Pep and Ancelotti, no one is good enough.
I literally gave you a list. You indicated that only two fit “our football”. Fine, go for one of them then.
It’s a crap argument, mate. All of the managers I listed are more accomplished than Ten Hag, with the exception of Potter. I think the real reason for your pushback is you have been banging the Ten Hag drum and you’re reluctant to admit you were wrong. I actually do think that Ruud would be better. I can’t prove it, and neither can you.
We make decisions all the time in life where we don’t know the answer beforehand. Will I like this vacation spot? Will the food at this new restaurant be good? Will my gift be appreciated? You have to take chances on things, especially when you are miserable and need change.
1. Several viable options have been presented.
2. We're fans, not top Sporting Directors. I would hope Ashworth and team have a few more names on their list than we do.
3. I find it bizarre that some people are arguing that there's "nobody available"...I don't know how many managers there are out there across the Globe but it must be tens of thousands. Lets stick with a failing manager who is ruining our best young talent because Guardiola isn't available?
In spite of spending over £600m, I'm not sure a "typical" ten Hag team beats an Ole one and that's very, very depressing.
Emery who has a much more successful record in the game than Ten Hag? Emery who is currently getting much more out of Aston Villa than Ten Hag is getting out of Utd? Based on his record, he would be an upgrade.
Sure, you can argue he might not be the right man to win us titles. But I can’t see how you can logically argue than he isn’t a better option than Ten Hag, who has us playing well below that level. So you’re absolutely right that someone with Ten Hag’s current record has no business being at Utd. That’s my point. He should be gone.
And ETH's 8th and a Cup win where we were a VAR decision away from being embarrassed by Coventry is acceptable? He is failing at what he was brought in to do. That doesn't mean we keep him until a Zidane or Klopp becomes available, there are several weight classes between ETH and Guardiola so we can take a guy who is an improvement on ETH, return to competitiveness and incremental improvement season on season (whilst Ashworth and Co build the squad). Emery's ceiling, on a 150m per season budget, could be third but a series of sustained 3rd place finishes and deep cup runs puts the club on a strong footing to capitalize on a possible slip up by the top two.
I think most of us expected him to be gone by now. But, I feel the pressure is on and I just can't see him making it to Christmas. I hope INEOS are proactive and don't drag out the inevitable.
It's definitely an overly complicated RedCafe issue.
It isn't either of our job, as you say. The people who's job it is haven't replaced him, which means they haven't found anyone they deem a suitable replacement who is attainable. It's a case of either agreeing with that, or having the name of someone you think is gettable and will improve things, and would be willing to come in as a caretaker (unless the name you have is someone you think would work long term).
I think we're best waiting until the end of the season, and based on the recent public support the manager has had from the club it seems they do too.
The issue was not the lack of a fancy system. Come on. Do you remember how bad we were against Liverpool at home? They weren't even trying and were up 5-0....
And yes you need a proper style of play to be consistently good. How far can that style take you depends on what style it is. And it's not these days, it's always been the case.
Then close this thread if the discussion can only happen once the powers that be have taken the decision. Right now I would take Tuchel in a heartbeat. Proven and someone with the resume to manage a big club and winning at a big club. Not sure how that is even a question of his suitability when we have a ego maniac at the helm who is failing miserably in the league.
If something is obvious, it should be exceedingly simple to make a case for it then.
It isn't disingenuous on both sides, it's disingenuous on your side as you're deliberately misrepresenting my point. There are more than 2 possible positions on the manager, if the only options you can comprehend are "rate him very highly" or "complete fraud" then that lends further credence to my point that sacking him now is an irrational reaction lacking any depth of thought.
My position occupies part of the cavernous space between "must sack immediately with no thoughts whatsoever about what to do next" and "best manager ever". Here it is one more time: