This is his 3rd season now. Besides all the nice looking stats, where I'll agree have improved, his biggest problem is that he fails to find goals in the team.
3 seasons now and we still have trouble finding the back of the net. We got away with it in his first season, last season we didn't, and it seems we are just continuing the trend this season.
So his attacking setup doesn't work. I'm still not sure how he's even trying to find goals. If he can't get goals, he'll never win games which keeps the door open for opposition to come at us because we have no security.
Hand-waving away last season as the result of freak injuries whilst simultaneously praising ETH for improvement in performances since last season is having your cake and eating it too.
Ultimately you either accept injuries as an excuse for last season or you don't. First season was just fine in terms of performance / results. I think having negative GD in the league despite the injuries is cause for sacking but the consensus both here and by the management team was to not look too closely into last season because of the injury crisis.
If you believe we won’t get out the group, let’s bet?
Sure, but we aren’t attacking exactly the same way for three seasons. There has been a marked improvement from last year in terms of the chances being made.
At this point it’s on the players missing those chances and we are stuck with them until January. If you want to blame Ten Hag for hitching his success to these players then that’s fair. But it’s not tactics that are the problem in attack right now. We are missing clear chances.
Why are you deflecting from the point I made?
Is drawing with Twente a one off result or is it part of a pattern of failure under Ten Hag with only 1 win in 9 in Europe?
A relative improvement from last year is not an impressive feat in itself, and should not be the barometer of whether Ten Hag is succeeding or not.
Despite some improvements in our attacking play, we’re still left with long stretches where we look pretty clueless in how to break a team down, especially in the second halves after the opponents have typically made adjustments. It’s not like we’re cutting teams to shreds - we’re just creating some chances that you’d expect a set of players like ours to create no matter who was in charge.
And noone’s blaming Ten Hag for “hitching his success to these players”. That’s just a nonsense term you’ve made up to deflect responsibility from him. Most people are blaming Ten Hag for a very extended period of poor performances and poor results, along with consistently baffling decisions. He consistently gets less from the team than is reasonable to expect given its personnel, and a lot of that does come down to his tactical failings. Until his tactics show an ability to consistently achieve both performances and results then they will rightly be under scrutiny - he’s yet to prove they work in the PL or in Europe.
I’m not deflecting from Ten Hag’s failures. However, it was a lack of creativity that was the issue last season. We literally weren’t even having shots. Compared to this season where we are right up at the top in terms of chance creation and it’s night and day. It’s a fact that we have missed loads of chances.
The other thing is that if you take an early chance you get even more later in games. If you have a lead you tend to get opportunities as the other team chases the game. Look at the missed chances late against Fulham for example.
When I talk about Ten Hag ‘hitching his success to these players’ I’m the one blaming him. I think he made a horrible mistake building around Rashford and Bruno. Two extremely unreliable players. I think he has then compounded that mistake by betting on youth around them. Choosing the promise of Hojlund over a more senior striker.
Many on here have demanded the end to signings like Varane, Casemiro, Falcao or Cavani. Well the flip side is that potential is only that until it develops. I’m glad that we are building on youth but I’m not sure our fan base has the patience for it whether it’s Ten Hag or whoever replaces him.
No, that was just one of the issues that we had last season. Another was failing to finish chances (still a problem). Another was conceding soft chances and goals at key moments, especially later in games, costing us valuable points in winnable games (still a problem). Another was opposition managers making tactical changes during matches that took the initiative back, with Ten Hag failing to respond adequately (still a problem).
So yes, we’ve slightly improved in one area with zero improvement in results to show for it. But it’s still only an improvement when compared with one of the very worst periods under Ten Hag’s tenure, which itself is one of the very worst periods we’ve seen post-Fergie. And that’s my point: the yardstick we should be using for “improvement” is not a historically poor period under the current failing manager. It’s a sign of how far our standards have dropped when that’s what’s being used as a comparative point in order to spin “positives”.
Sure, but we aren’t attacking exactly the same way for three seasons. There has been a marked improvement from last year in terms of the chances being made.
At this point it’s on the players missing those chances and we are stuck with them until January. If you want to blame Ten Hag for hitching his success to these players then that’s fair. But it’s not tactics that are the problem in attack right now. We are missing clear chances.
Yes, I was specifically discussing our attacking form though. You can’t make the players better finishers. You can create more chances and that’s what we’re doing.
Last season is last season. The disaster was a combination of Ten Hags tactics and the injuries coupled with poor form of key players.
The only yardstick that matters is how we are compared to the teams we are competing against this season. Outside of the Liverpool game we deservedly beat Fulham & Southampton and should have beaten Palace. We wouldn’t be the first team to not be able to win a game we deserved to win. The Brighton game was more even but most would say we deserved a point if not more especially with the freak offside goal.
It feels like to me that people are being extremely reactionary to any and everything this season because they have already made their minds up. Results need to improve but the unlike last season our underlying performance suggests that should happen.
They're a well coached side.
There's always the possibility he flukes a win I suppose.
Would be just our luck for him to limp on 'til Xmas and kill our season again.
Give it to Ruud and get Amorim in next summer. Don’t care if we have pay £20m for his release clause.
Ole/Jose all over again. Constantly coming back from the brink when we all know it's over. Then their luck inevitably run out.
Yeah and league is also meaningless because we won’t get relegated whether we finish 16th or 5th. And we probably won’t finish lower than 10th anyway
CL is also not very important because we aren’t going to win it anyway. Essentially only League Cup and FA Cup are important because if you lose you are out.
So, nice. There is a good way to lose. We are losing now but in a good way, that’s tremendous progress.You seem to be trying to change what is being discussed? Who said we went ‘toe to toe’? I said it wasn’t like the 0-5 drubbing.
Are these similar aside from being losses?
(xG)
United 1.52 v 1.5 Pool
United 1.36 v 4.05 Pool
Blind favoritism for some players is just nauseating.
Then why did TH buy him as a main striker for if this is the case, when we need an out and out goalscorer? £70 million down the drain then, if we cant play him to score plenty goalsBut Rasmus is not a natural proven goal scorer - was the point.
For us who wants EtH gone yesterday, can you feel that all the people who defends him never have arguments for why. They just use "Fergie got a couple of years", "We cant keep firing managers", "The group must settle" etc. Often not a single one of actual football progress or liking him as a person.
For me, he should have left Carrington after the big Liverpool defeat. Haven't enjoyed my team since.
I’m not deflecting from Ten Hag’s failures. However, it was a lack of creativity that was the issue last season. We literally weren’t even having shots. Compared to this season where we are right up at the top in terms of chance creation and it’s night and day. It’s a fact that we have missed loads of chances.
The other thing is that if you take an early chance you get even more later in games. If you have a lead you tend to get opportunities as the other team chases the game. Look at the missed chances late against Fulham for example.
When I talk about Ten Hag ‘hitching his success to these players’ I’m the one blaming him. I think he made a horrible mistake building around Rashford and Bruno. Two extremely unreliable players. I think he has then compounded that mistake by betting on youth around them. Choosing the promise of Hojlund over a more senior striker.
Many on here have demanded the end to signings like Varane, Casemiro, Falcao or Cavani. Well the flip side is that potential is only that until it develops. I’m glad that we are building on youth but I’m not sure our fan base has the patience for it whether it’s Ten Hag or whoever replaces him.
I don't accept excuses as to why people can't do their jobs. We've seen many other managers, including some of our own, get results with a weakened team. It's ridiculous to suggest we need the best players in every position to beat teams like Palace and Ten Hag can't be judged until that is true. We're not the only team to suffer injuries, it isn't unprecedented.Ultimately you either accept injuries as an excuse for last season or you don't. First season was just fine in terms of performance / results. I think having negative GD in the league despite the injuries is cause for sacking but the consensus both here and by the management team was to not look too closely into last season because of the injury crisis.
I can begrudgingly accept that and move on and suggest you do the same. We add depth to deal with injuries, give him the new structure and see what happens. Once you arrive at that conclusion, it's hard to do the mental gymnastics to promptly turn around and sack him again after 3 games.
He's clearly on a short leash but the underlying data is one reason to wait a bit longer. He won't make it till the end of the season anyway if results stay this way - data or not.
Houdini. When backed into a corner, he always go full Houdini... followed by a questionable contract renewal.Spurs at home then Porto and villa away. Will he pull his Houdini act again or will this finally be it for ten hag?
Sorry can you rephrase this. As I read it you are saying:
We’ve changed from relegation to 8 to place? I don’t understand, we finished 8th last season, this season we are 11th. I’m lost what I am trying to have both ways.
The underlying stats last season had us somewhere near 14th, now they have us 5th.
Underlying stats once the season is done kind of are. They’re useful to see if a team has been lucky (like we were) or not but the season is done, so it’s not like we’re wondering if anything will change for that specific season.We finished 8th last season despite underlying stats saying we were significantly worse than that. We're currently about where underlying stats say we should be (you say 5th everything else I've seen suggests 7th or 8th).
Putting aside for a second that 7th/8th is not good enough for a United manager, and taking your 5th. You're left with two options:
A) Underlying stats are very important and are the true judge of where a team is.
Or
B) Results are important and how you get there doesn't matter.
I'm sure you'd agree that a 14th place would have gotten ten Hag sacked, so the only reason way we can excuse last season is by the fact he fluked his way to 8th and an FA Cup win.
That implies that you think underlying stats are meaningless, because otherwise you would have sacked ten Hag for overseeing a 14th placed season, so you can't then invoke them this season to explain away poor results. That just reeks of working backwards from a pro ten Hag position.
Or read the chain before hopping in like your username. Guy said there’s no difference we between any of the Pool losses, there clearly is a difference as much as any loss isn’t good.So, nice. There is a good way to lose. We are losing now but in a good way, that’s tremendous progress.
You like a Pool fan with the alternative table.
Truth is the progress we have witnessed is to go from losing to losing, still by playing boring football and that looks like a good thing for some of you, which should justify not sacking the guy.
No deflection - thought it was quite an obvious train of thought. Last season was terrible in the CL but your point is if we were so bad it’s a trend, I think we will buck the trend (get out the group). So bet?Why are you deflecting from the point I made?
Is drawing with Twente a one off result or is it part of a pattern of failure under Ten Hag with only 1 win in 9 in Europe?
Well you asked me a question and the answer was basically everyone apart from 2 teams. Not saying the results have been good enough but we’ve been the ‘better’ team in 5/7 games.That's what I'm saying. We have outplayed rubbish teams. Southampton, Barnsley, Twente and Palace for 45 minutes. Let's see how good we are against a team with a remotely decent midfield, and then talk about metrics.
Shit results, agreed.Better but still shit which is the problem
That’s knocked me back that has. I didn’t even know he was illHe won’t be here in 4 years!
Sure, but we aren’t attacking exactly the same way for three seasons. There has been a marked improvement from last year in terms of the chances being made.
At this point it’s on the players missing those chances and we are stuck with them until January. If you want to blame Ten Hag for hitching his success to these players then that’s fair. But it’s not tactics that are the problem in attack right now. We are missing clear chances.
Sure, but we aren’t attacking exactly the same way for three seasons. There has been a marked improvement from last year in terms of the chances being made.
At this point it’s on the players missing those chances and we are stuck with them until January. If you want to blame Ten Hag for hitching his success to these players then that’s fair. But it’s not tactics that are the problem in attack right now. We are missing clear chances.
They will know that he should have been sacked in the summer.I wonder what does Omar and Dan think at the moment?
So, nice. There is a good way to lose. We are losing now but in a good way, that’s tremendous progress.
You like a Pool fan with the alternative table.
Truth is the progress we have witnessed is to go from losing to losing, still by playing boring football and that looks like a good thing for some of you, which should justify not sacking the guy.
We scored 1 goal from an xG of basically 1. Really no idea what people have on mind when they say that just keep missing chances in a game like that.We created feck all against Twente
Maybe not the Europa game but in the league we’d have 12 points if our forwards weren’t so inconsistent in finishing.We scored 1 goal from an xG of basically 1. Really no idea what people have on mind when they say that just keep missing chances in a game like that.
