Erik ten Hag | 2024/25

Erik ten Hag

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FrankDrebin said:
Honestly, we start the games well, minor the Liverpool game.
But once that half time comes around, we come out as a completely different team and not a good one at that.
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You could also say that in most of those games our opposition have also played better themselves in certain periods. Palace second half, Southampton first 30 minutes were much better, Brighton were better for periods of the game, Fulham wasn't a good performance either in my opinion. In all honesty, apart from Liverpool I think every team we've faced have been worse than they were last season. Fulham have found a bit of form now, for example, and we probably would struggle even more if we faced them now. I think they're even above us in the table. It was a good time to face all of these teams as they had a shaky start this season and we had struggled against them all last season, but even then we haven't capitalised at all. I can only see our performances and results going downhill as we face better teams and teams that have built up a bit of form.
 
careca07 said:
There is noise building, no doubt about it. I never thought he would last past the start of November and I'm still surprised he was retained after last season. In honesty there could have been no complaints had he been sacked immediately after the 7-0, and that was a long time ago. That was a generational defeat.

He's put together a massively average squad at huge expense, that simply don't score goals, he has no obvious playing style after three years and while I don't think he's lost the dressing room I think he has fallen out with the likes of Garnacho. He also has a bad habit of deluding himself in public after poor performances, which is most weeks.

I'll be interested to see if Ineos act more decisively than the previous lot who would write off entire seasons before sacking dead ducks
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This isn't a blind defence of his, but the squad is better than average and a good manager should be getting top 4 and a good cup run or two, with some comfort. So the benchmark is high for Ten Hag and he has to perform.

I disagree that we don't know our style. I think our pressing is more consistent and our buildup is more patient, and with Dalot tucking into midfield and a good understanding between our center backs, I think we have established better chemistry. We are clearly creating chances too which doesn't happen when a team has no identity or doesn't really know what they're doing.

But the noise was there for ten hag before a ball was kicked. Which means most supporters won't have patience from good football and bad results.

This is ironic because when faced with the Arteta third season example, many of the same supporters argued "but his football was getting better and you can see where results are going." All of a sudden they won't have the same level of patience for ten hag, despite 3rd and 8th instead of 8th, 8th and 5th.
 
pocco said:
You could also say that in most of those games our opposition have also played better themselves in certain periods. Palace second half, Southampton first 30 minutes were much better, Brighton were better for periods of the game, Fulham wasn't a good performance either in my opinion. In all honesty, apart from Liverpool I think every team we've faced have been worse than they were last season. Fulham have found a bit of form now, for example, and we probably would struggle even more if we faced them now. I think they're even above us in the table. It was a good time to face all of these teams as they had a shaky start this season and we had struggled against them all last season, but even then we haven't capitalised at all. I can only see our performances and results going downhill as we face better teams and teams that have built up a bit of form.
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Im unsure how many games you've seen from other teams but can you name many club that hasn't been outplayed for periods in the game?
 
I totally understand those who continue backing him inspite of everything, having been there myself with Ole, but I understood his time was up when he was finally sacked. I think the only defence left for EtH is the perceived improvement over the first few games of the season and the hope that it will translate into a good season at the end.
However, the improvement this season, absolutely ineluctable as it was (considering the very low bar of last season and additional players bought to improve the squad), is very negligible so far. This club expects so much more that he surely can't keep this much longer unless there is some miraculous overnight change, which everyone knows won't happen, I'm sure even his most ardent supporters must know this (maybe some would like him to maintain some credibility for other top jobs after he inevitably leaves which will be more difficult if he is sacked by October/November following a disastrous season).

And for those who think, probably rightly, that no available manager can be expected to put in drastically improved performances and results immediately, let me put it this way: if this was his first season (probably even second season) he could be awarded more patience as we wait to see how he picks up the team from this shaky start. Unfortunately same can't be said of a manager in his third season at a club of our status, unless he has a lot of credit in the bank over the previous seaons, of which EtH has absolutely none! Patience has unfortunately worn very thin with him meanwhile the clock will be reset for the new manager.
 
Fanatic 00237 said:
I totally understand those who continue backing him inspite of everything, having been there myself with Ole, but I understood his time was up when he was finally sacked. I think the only defence left for EtH is the perceived improvement over the first few games of the season and the hope that it will translate into a good season at the end.
However, the improvement this season, absolutely ineluctable as it was (considering the very low bar of last season and additional players bought to improve the squad), is very negligible so far. This club expects so much more that he surely can't keep this much longer unless there is some miraculous overnight change, which everyone knows won't happen, I'm sure even his most ardent supporters must know this (maybe some would like him to maintain some credibility for other top jobs after he inevitably leaves which will be more difficult if he is sacked by October/November following a disastrous season).

And for those who think, probably rightly, that no available manager can be expected to put in drastically improved performances and results immediately, let me put it this way: if this was his first season (probably even second season) he could be awarded more patience as we wait to see how he picks up the team from this shaky start. Unfortunately same can't be said of a manager in his third season at a club of our status, unless he has a lot of credit in the bank over the previous seaons, of which EtH has absolutely none! Patience has unfortunately worn very thin with him meanwhile the clock will be reset for the new manager.
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Realistically the perceived improvement is that we are not conceding 20+ shots a game, when you start low improvements are easy to come by
 
careca07 said:
There is noise building, no doubt about it. I never thought he would last past the start of November and I'm still surprised he was retained after last season. In honesty there could have been no complaints had he been sacked immediately after the 7-0, and that was a long time ago. That was a generational defeat.

He's put together a massively average squad at huge expense, that simply don't score goals, he has no obvious playing style after three years and while I don't think he's lost the dressing room I think he has fallen out with the likes of Garnacho. He also has a bad habit of deluding himself in public after poor performances, which is most weeks.

I'll be interested to see if Ineos act more decisively than the previous lot who would write off entire seasons before sacking dead ducks
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This. The squad is not very strong, our strikers and wingers are midtable level. Hard to see ETH and this team finish top 4, or even top 6.
 
edgecutter said:
It doesn't help that he advocated to spend 80 million for anthony. That alone is sackable
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Tbf he didn't set the stupidly high price.

But when he found out that Antony was going to eat up a big fraction of his transfer funds, he didn't veto it either. That part's on him.
 
Ayoba said:
Spurs at home then Porto and villa away. Will he pull his Houdini act again or will this finally be it for ten hag?
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It'll be a mix as usual. We beat Spurs, draw to Porto and lose to Villa. The sort of run that makes you wonder whether to sack him or back him. Rinse and repeat.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
No deflection - thought it was quite an obvious train of thought. Last season was terrible in the CL but your point is if we were so bad it’s a trend, I think we will buck the trend (get out the group). So bet?
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I think the new manager bounce we’ll be getting soon will help us scrape our way out, especially with the change in format.
 
Chumpsbechumps said:
Zirkee stopped a defo goal that would have put United 2-1 up against Brighton. I don’t think I have ever seen a goal disallowed for that because it never happens.

You said XG after pool leading doesn’t matter, well United going 2-1 up at that time could of changed the ending and 95th minute winner.

Like I said, I don’t like XG, applying it game on game is not great, but you can’t Select games like pool and say “well that XG doesn’t really tell the full story” and ignore a massive issue with the Brighton one at the same time.
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They were 3-0 ahead before we started to create anything. We had an xG of 0.08 going into half time break. Even if we scored one of these chances these would have just been a consolation goal at that point.
 
Zed 101 said:
Realistically the perceived improvement is that we are not conceding 20+ shots a game, when you start low improvements are easy to come by
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That's what I was alluding to, yes, the bar was set so low last season that we could only do better, especially with the additions to the squad. I mean even Southgate *shudders* would be lauded today as having improved the team if he had come in.
 
VP89 said:
Vs Brighton, Garnachos disallowed goal wipes out the XG from that chance is that correct? If so it goes to show how shit XG is in analysing games.
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I don't think it does, I think Garnacho's chance still counts. Zirkzee's doesn't (which would have had an xG of 0.95 or so).

It is imperfect for sure (like the Liverpool example) but gives you directional sense of the quality of chances being created.
 
tomaldinho1 said:
Even if it is Southgate?
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Still don't see it happening. Don't think the new regime would want so much negativity associated with their first appointment. I mean even if Southgate is actually a good manager, he'd be at an immediate disadvantage with almost all the fanbase not wanting him there. Would be a moronic decision.
 
tjb said:
I think what people don't truly understand is, to justify his stay, Ten Hag would have needed to have a drastically improved start to the season, both in results and performance.
Our fans seem to think that we have an obligation to will managers to success. We don't. It's business, where the results and performance directly affect our operations and finances. It's not sentimental and it should not be, unless the figure in question has shown quality to deserve that consideration. Arsenal under Wenger owed him that. In addition, he was producing good football, but did not have the funds required to deserve that level of expectation.

Ten Hag has actually proven that he is not qualified for the job. His performance last season, FA Cup or no FA Cup, was the worst by any Man United manager. The dispiriting impact it had on the club, fans and players cannot truly be explained. No other big club with our status would have tolerated even half of what went on last season. He doesn't deserve the time and I personally don't think that was the point. I think people like to think that INEOS did not find the right manager; I don't actually think this is true. I think INEOS didn't find the right manager that would justify replacing Ten Hag at the time of winning the FA Cup and prior to setting up the senior management structure. I believe they would have changed course if they believed there was a truly exceptional manager like a Klopp or Pep, who could handle the blowback of the sacking and not having a structure temporarily. Essentially, I think time rather than quality was the main factor in their decision. I believe they've given Ten Hag the opportunity to impress, whilst using the lack of fanfare and pressure to place structures and showcase their abilities in the market without distraction. They're able to focus on planning the new stadium, bringing in new signings and bringing in new personnel without the instability of a new manager.

This means, Ten Hag was nobody's choice, but rather a short term stopgap of stability. In addition, poor results have decimated any hostility that would have arisen from sacking Ten Hag at the end of the summer. United fans and the media tend to have short memories in regard to these type of things, and would quickly have turned on INEOS for taking that decision without giving Ten Hag a chance to turn it around. Noone can say that they haven't given him time now. Noone can say it was injuries or lack of support or lack of signings. This is not to say that they callously planned this out, but made the decision hoping that Ten Hag really would turn things around, with the safeguard that if he didn't, a lot of positive things would have taken place and any potential blowback would have dissipated.
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This is a really good post. ETH has had more than enough time to show his credentials as a manager at a club such as Manchester United. Next season will be his fourth in charge, consider that for a minute.
 
What did they think was going to happen? It was obvious by the end of last season he was never turning this around. He's simply not a good enough manager at this level.

Keeping him was a huge mistake and they need to own it and learn from it.
 
croadyman said:
Yeah especially when you have Romano coming out with quotes about INEOS giving him time for Yoro to come back.
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That true?
We're always one key player missing from this amazing transformation.
A system so good that just one part missing makes it look like utter rudderless shit.
 
Sarni said:
I don't think it does, I think Garnacho's chance still counts. Zirkzee's doesn't (which would have had an xG of 0.95 or so).

It is imperfect for sure (like the Liverpool example) but gives you directional sense of the quality of chances being created.
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Do you have a link? I'm sure that XG excludes attacks that were offside.

In any case I think a draw at Brighton was more accurate reflection of chances and I think we really should have beaten palace if our strikers could finish (and I do not see this as a managerial problem as such).

That would probably have us 4 pts worse off than our performances may suggest, which is funnily enough 1pt off Arsenal.
 
Someone said:
It'll be a mix as usual. We beat Spurs, draw to Porto and lose to Villa. The sort of run that makes you wonder whether to sack him or back him. Rinse and repeat.
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Yeah it's a cycle. Then we will finish 7th, have another underwhelming but slightly improved season but come end of May we will be playing an EL final against Roma, we will win and he will get a new contract.
 
izec said:
He should, but there is no way he is going now.

At the earliest November or December. I dont think Ineos have it in them to sack him so early. They fecked up in the summer
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If he loses the next two games he will managing for his job against Villa.
 
izec said:
We are usually not in a complete free fall. He still managed to win a game here and there and draws out the inevitable. That is why it is painful.
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He hasn't played anyone even half decent yet, aside from Liverpool and they tonked us 0-3 on our own turf. The next string of fixtures could easily send us into free fall.
 
izec said:
We are usually not in a complete free fall. He still managed to win a game here and there and draws out the inevitable. That is why it is painful.
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If he keeps starting Bruno and we keep getting these 0/10 performances, I can see it getting really bad.
 
Salford_Red83 said:
It... really wasn't.

Our form dipped just before the League Cup final and has been in the gutter ever since.

We literally scraped to 4th place and almost threw it away in the end.

Don't forget we also got tanked 7-0 at Anfield.

But sure, I guess that's "fine".
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The 7-0 at Anfield was us being over confident and attempting to press Liverpool up high at Anfield. They had a poor run of results, everyone believed they were there for the taking and we were in decent form.

But yeah I agree that we almost threw away the fourth place and the form was bad towards the end of the season.
 
VP89 said:
Do you have a link? I'm sure that XG excludes attacks that were offside.

In any case I think a draw at Brighton was more accurate reflection of chances and I think we really should have beaten palace if our strikers could finish (and I do not see this as a managerial problem as such).

That would probably have us 4 pts worse off than our performances may suggest, which is funnily enough 1pt off Arsenal.
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Understat have Garnacho's chance against Brighton as being blocked, which is weird. 0.52 xG out of 1.29 total for United against Brighton. Amad's chance from Dalot's cross was assessed as being 0.30. Looking at the xG of respective chances, Brighton seem to have had more big chances in that game, though I'm not sure what the cut-off point is for big chances in terms of xG.

https://understat.com/match/26612

Arsenal's fixture schedule to date is somewhat different to United's so comparing points at this stage doesn't tell you a great deal.

The appropriate stages for assessing managers is at the end of the season and at the midway point, as all teams have played each other twice (end) or once (midway). Often a good or bad run is largely due to the difficulty of that set of fixtures.
 
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kundalini said:
Understat have Garnacho's chance against Brighton as being blocked, which is weird. 0.52 xG out of 1.29 total for United against Brighton. Amad's chance from Dalot's cross was assessed as being 0.30. Looking at the xG of respective chances, Brighton seem to have had more big chances in that game, though I'm not sure what the cut-off point is for big chances in terms of xG.

https://understat.com/match/26612

Arsenal's fixture schedule to date is somewhat different to United's so comparing points at this stage doesn't tell you a great deal.
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As I say, a draw was probably a fair reflection of how the Brighton match went by way of performance. Even if Arsenal edge on a trickier fixture list it says something that we are unfortunate to not be right up behind them.
 
Zumbi said:
I just dispute that the tactical failings in attack have been adequately eradicated. I still think we have lots of tactical issues in attack. Despite creating more chances this season, we still often look slow, imbalanced and lacking in ideas when trying to break teams down. Especially later in matches once our opponents to have made adjustments. Ten Hag hasn’t yet demonstrated an ability to himself respond with changes which can force a break through, despite now having much better options off the bench.

So no, I just don’t accept our consistent lack of goals is simply and only down to poor finishing. All teams miss chances. Palace also missed chances.I think Ten Hag’s coaching, set up and tactics are still a limiting factor in our attack. I still have no doubt that other managers could get a better attacking tune out of this set of players.

I still don’t feel as if sufficient goals are an inevitability with this team set up in this way, especially when we have much tougher opponents coming up. And I still don’t feel it’s an inevitability that our results will improve just because we m’re creating more chances and had a good half against a poor Palace team and a good result against a poor Southampton team. We’ve seen so many false dawns and many of our previous failings which have regularly cost us results are still there.

Is that a reactionary take? Or are there some legitimate justifications for being underwhelmed by a slight increase in chances created during a fairly gentle start to the season?
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I guess I don’t think there is any tactical setup in which this group of players score loads of goals regularly. Would Pep or Klopp do better, probably. But I still think our group of attackers will struggle regardless of how good the system is.
 
Longshanks said:
We have the 6th best xg in the league so far.
We are 10th for xga, and our expected points has us 7th and we are actually 11th.

The stats suggest we should be mid-table and we are. 3 years and 600million to take us from just outside the top 4 to mid table is frankly appalling.

It is a small sample size this season so it could improve, but it doesn't look that likely.

It is an improvement on last season's stats that had us 14th though, so well done ETH I guess.
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Excluding the Liverpool games where we conceded loads of xG and the actual 3 goals our defence has been pretty decent. We’ve already had 3 clean sheets in the Premier League.

Every team concedes some chances but shots on our goal are way down from last season and way up in attack.
 
stevoc said:
So the solution is to buy even more players?
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Or to hope that that Amad, Hojlund, Zirkzee and Garnacho improve and develop. They are young enough still.

Bruno and Rashford we need to hope hit a purple patch because their inconsistency is baked in at this point of their careers.
 
erikcred said:
Tbf he didn't set the stupidly high price.

But when he found out that Antony was going to eat up a big fraction of his transfer funds, he didn't veto it either. That part's on him.
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It was reported that the United transfer team valued Antony only at around 20-30million. So who insisted on getting him regardless of price ie at 80million quid? It only points to one person.
 
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