De Ligt | €45+5m agreement reached pending medical | Signed!

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I just met two Juventus fans friends of mine (35 yrs support each). Both said the same thing. De Ligt is half decent but he's ridiculously overrated. One followed him in the Bundesliga as well.

Don't shoot the messenger
 
If it takes just another £5-6m to reach middle ground with Bayern then this deal probably will get tied up within the next few days. Might we see De Ligt and Ugarte in red this week? I think we might.
 
Monks_United said:
We should offer them Antony on loan with obligation to buy to make up the difference. Or they can have their pick of Maguire, Lindelof, Casemiro or Scott. Lots of options here Bayern. Uli knows there’s a great deal to be had here like with Dier last season !
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You mean we get de Ligt for 30M and then give them the additional 12M for taking Antony off our books?

That's the only way that obligation can work if you ask me.
 
antohan said:
It's quite rightly a book-keeping profit of 10M given you have amortised 17 for the benefit of using the asset over two years and then someone comes along offering more than your remaining valuation of the asset.

Either way, I couldn't care less, he is 24 so I would happily pay a premium for 24-29 over 22-24 on a defender unless they are damaged goods. Anywhere in the range between our offer and their counter-offer seems like good value to me.
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Sure, but it's not "making a profit" in any normal sense of the world. If United sell Sancho for £30m, that's a huge loss which represents the fact that the deal has been a total failure. That it would be a tiny profit on the books doesn't change that.
 
Deal will be sealed next week when he returns from holiday, same with Ugarte. Ideally would be if it was before they travel to US. But I guess that's a bit too optimistic
 
devilish said:
I just met two Juventus fans friends of mine (35 yrs support each). Both said the same thing. De Ligt is half decent but he's ridiculously overrated. One followed him in the Bundesliga as well.

Don't shoot the messenger
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Given the CB royalty they compare to I'll take that as "he is decent but a tad overrated", which is my take on him.
 
NotThatSoph said:
Sure, but it's not "making a profit" in any normal sense of the world. If United sell Sancho for £30m, that's a huge loss which represents the fact that the deal has been a total failure. That it would be a tiny profit on the books doesn't change that.
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To be fair, it would be a good deal. The huge loss in his case is the amortisation incurred on an unproductive asset.
 
devilish said:
I just met two Juventus fans friends of mine (35 yrs support each). Both said the same thing. De Ligt is half decent but he's ridiculously overrated. One followed him in the Bundesliga as well.

Don't shoot the messenger
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They sound smart

He's been poop whenever I've watched him post-Ajax
 
antohan said:
To be fair, it would be a good deal. The huge loss in his case is the amortisation incurred on an unproductive asset.
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Yes, it would be a good deal because he has been useless. His book value would be the same no matter what, and if the transfer went even close to as hoped it would be a horrible deal, even though it would represent a profit accounting wise. Book value is a terrible estimate of value more often than not, it's just that all alternatives are worse.
 
antohan said:
Given the CB royalty they compare to I'll take that as "he is decent but a tad overrated", which is my take on him.
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They stressed on the term 'ridiculously overrated'. These are guys who go and watch Juventus play on a regular basis. The discussion started as one of them was trying to sort a deal to go and watch Juventus play in the VIP area (the estimated cost is 500 euros btw). I don't particularly rate one of them as he is a bit of a jerk (very common with Juventini) but the other I rate his opinion a lot. He's even got coaching badges and had trained at youth level.

However they both admitted that maybe ETH could get a tune out of him
 
Yakuza_devils said:
This is a done deal IMO the way ETH speak to the media about wanting him 2 years ago. DeLigt only want us and BM want to sell. We will get a reasonable price for sure. Just wait. Be patient.

We will have 3 world class CBs in Martinez, Yoro and DeLigt.
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Come on, he's nowhere near 'world class'.
 
DJ_21 said:
Although this would be a very good signing. I think we should be prioritising DM and CM first
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Our new board can be multitasking, unlike the previous...
They seems like to do something in one window that Glazer needs several windows
 
The Cat said:
He sounds more than willing to leave to be fair.
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He's okay with leaving if they want to sell him but he isn't pushing for a move. You'd expect a cut price of a player was forcing a move himself, which isn't the case here.

MinGin said:
https://www.capology.com/club/bayern-munich/salaries/

Their salary is so high..maybe it is a reason to get rid a non starter with high salary
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DWelbz19 said:
Salary. It's the same problem we'll have with selling Sancho and/or Rashford were a deal ever to happen.
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Salary is one part but also, as Hoeness said, they want to strengthen in other areas and he's probably the highest value CB they have to fund those purchases. Still, you look at the list of players above him and he's as important as most of them and not than a few as well.

dinostar77 said:
They really want Tah.

I don't know enough about Tah to know if he is upgrade on de ligt.
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Tah is such a downgrade on him. Tah was great as a young player but stagnated a lot until he started playing in a 3 at the back system, which is completely different to 2 at the back, which he'll likely play at Bayern.
 
devilish said:
They stressed on the term 'ridiculously overrated'. These are guys who go and watch Juventus play on a regular basis. The discussion started as one of them was trying to sort a deal to go and watch Juventus play in the VIP area (the estimated cost is 500 euros btw). I don't particularly rate one of them as he is a bit of a jerk (very common with Juventini) but the other I rate his opinion a lot. He's even got coaching badges and had trained at youth level.

However they both admitted that maybe ETH could get a tune out of him
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Well they have had Bonucci, Chiellini, Ferrara and Cannavaro playing for them in their history, so perhaps their ballpark judgement of centrebacks is extremely high. De Ligt is a tier below them, but that’s not to say he’s overrated or won’t fit at United
 
SATA said:
Well they have had Bonucci, Chiellini, Ferrara and Cannavaro playing for them in their history, so perhaps their ballpark judgement of centrebacks is extremely high. De Ligt is a tier below them, but that’s not to say he’s overrated or won’t fit at United
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Yeah, that was my point.

Also @devilish they paid upwards of €80M on a young next big thing shiny toy with a lot to prove so maybe that's the basis for the ridiculousness.

€40M seems a far more reasonable/non-ridiculous ballpark to me
 
devilish said:
They stressed on the term 'ridiculously overrated'. These are guys who go and watch Juventus play on a regular basis. The discussion started as one of them was trying to sort a deal to go and watch Juventus play in the VIP area (the estimated cost is 500 euros btw). I don't particularly rate one of them as he is a bit of a jerk (very common with Juventini) but the other I rate his opinion a lot. He's even got coaching badges and had trained at youth level.

However they both admitted that maybe ETH could get a tune out of him
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At this point, a decent modern center back who does the basics well (pass, tackle, decent positioning, aerially strong, doesn't shit himself upon being pressed) is significantly better than the talent that turned out for us for the past 5 years or so. We ran Maguire (turning radius of a small cruise ship), Lindelof (allergic to any aerial duels or duels in general), Varane (injured half the time) and Martinez and still managed to achieve CL spots.

Yeah sure he might get found out in a CL SF or whatever but let's get there first and then talk about upgrades.
 
devilish said:
I just met two Juventus fans friends of mine (35 yrs support each). Both said the same thing. De Ligt is half decent but he's ridiculously overrated. One followed him in the Bundesliga as well.

Don't shoot the messenger
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At what level do they mean he's overrated though?

By which I mean Juventus bought him at €75m when he was a 19 year old CL semi-finalist captain being heralded as a future great. And Bayern then signed him at 22 for a fee of up to €77m, when expectations for him were still extremely high.

Whereas we're looking to sign him for approx €40-50m at 24 years old as an experienced, CL-level CB.

In a context where someone like Max Kilman is being signed for £40m at 27 years old in the same transfer window, I would argue that the deal that we're positing for him suggests any overrating has largely stopped and we have a fairly realistic grasp of how good he actually is. We're not expecting the player he was hyped to be when Juventus signed him.
 
hasanejaz88 said:
He's okay with leaving if they want to sell him but he isn't pushing for a move. You'd expect a cut price of a player was forcing a move himself, which isn't the case here.





Salary is one part but also, as Hoeness said, they want to strengthen in other areas and he's probably the highest value CB they have to fund those purchases. Still, you look at the list of players above him and he's as important as most of them and not than a few as well.



Tah is such a downgrade on him. Tah was great as a young player but stagnated a lot until he started playing in a 3 at the back system, which is completely different to 2 at the back, which he'll likely play at Bayern.
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Let's be honest though. De Ligt has not fully convinced last season.

Yes, it's true that he played the majority of the games at the end of the season when he wasn't injured, but let's not forget that at some point, he was number 3 in the pecking order. He then benefited from the fact that Upamecano and Kim were not payable at the end of last season as they were totally out of form or not available.

He played alongside Dier, but certainly not because he was the leader and world-class defender that many want to see in him.
 
DJ_21 said:
Although this would be a very good signing. I think we should be prioritising DM and CM first
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Have seen very little links to any CM's which makes me think it's not a very high priority this summer
 
sullydnl said:
At what level do they mean he's overrated though?

By which I mean Juventus bought him at €75m when he was a 19 year old CL semi-finalist captain being heralded as a future great. And Bayern then signed him at 22 for a fee of up to €77m, when expectations for him were still extremely high.

Whereas we're looking to sign him for approx €40-50m at 24 years old as an experienced, CL-level CB.

In a context where someone like Max Kilman is being signed for £40m at 27 years old in the same transfer window, I would argue that the deal that we're positing for him suggests any overrating has largely stopped and we have a fairly realistic grasp of how good he actually is. We're not expecting the player he was hyped to be when Juventus signed him.
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That's something I did ask TBH. They said better then Maguire and Lindelof whom they rate as something that usually sticks at the outsole of their shoe but still nowhere near to WC. Juventus fans are a bit of Aholes (watch Lippi or Conte speak and you'll get the drift) but the impression is that he's somehow like current Guehi ie decent player but not exactly world class. Their issue is that he's paid to be a WC CB.
 
devilish said:
That's something I did ask TBH. They said better then Maguire and Lindelof whom they rate as something that usually sticks at the outsole of their shoe but still nowhere near to WC. Juventus fans are a bit of Aholes (watch Lippi or Conte speak and you'll get the drift) but the impression is that he's somehow like current Guehi ie decent player but not exactly world class. Their issue is that he's paid to be a WC CB.
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Was he better between 20 and 23 than Lindelof and Maguire between 27 and 30?


My issue is that very few judge de Ligt period at Juve as what it was; a talented young defender. He was paid alot partly due to that talent. Not just his current level. And yes, that it quite stupid from Juve.

Look at the CBs mentioned here:

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/199...-of-the-pl-era-numerical-order-please.483785/

Most of them were nobodies at 22-23. Quite a few of them did not make it at a big club until 25.

The smart thing would probably be buying de Ligt when he is about to enter his peak years….
 
antohan said:
Yeah, that was my point.

Also @devilish they paid upwards of €80M on a young next big thing shiny toy with a lot to prove so maybe that's the basis for the ridiculousness.

€40M seems a far more reasonable/non-ridiculous ballpark to me
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This is my take on it. Juventus is a bad club for a young player to go. They have their standards, they are aholes, they expect players to just wear the gear and act like a seasoned players and they did burnt some excellent talent such as Henry for example. Its sink or swim with them. You have to hear what they said about Yoro like "whose the feck is this guy who costed you so much?" Its not within their realms of reasoning that someone buys an 18 year old on huge money and then bring another player in that position. to bring experience in. If the former is so good then why can't he do the job NOW?

De Ligt went there and he tanked. Some was down to tactics. Juventus loves low blocks and De Ligt isn't designed for that. However he has to get some of the blame himself. He touched the ball with his hands so many times that he was like playing handball there. In time he improved but not enough to justify that monstrous fee and salary. It seem the same thing happened at Bayern. He did good but not enough to justify that salary.

If De Ligt lowers the salary significantly then he'll be worth the risk. If not then I have my concerns. There's also the injury issue to take into account.
 
devilish said:
This is my take on it. Juventus is a bad club for a young player to go. They have their standards, they are aholes, they expect players to just wear the gear and act like a seasoned players and they did burnt some excellent talent such as Henry for example. Its sink or swim with them. You have to hear what they said about Yoro like "whose the feck is this guy who costed you so much?" Its not within their realms of reasoning that someone buys an 18 year old on huge money and then bring another player in that position. to bring experience in. If the former is so good then why can't he do the job NOW?

De Ligt went there and he tanked. Some was down to tactics. Juventus loves low blocks and De Ligt isn't designed for that. However he has to get some of the blame himself. He touched the ball with his hands so many times that he was like playing handball there. In time he improved but not enough to justify that monstrous fee and salary. It seem the same thing happened at Bayern. He did good but not enough to justify that salary.

If De Ligt lowers the salary significantly then he'll be worth the risk. If not then I have my concerns. There's also the injury issue to take into account.
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Bit in bold is just made up
 
Now that we’ve made an official bid I think we’ll get an agreement by Friday. The gap is quite low between the clubs and it’s a clear indication we’ve now decided to go for him. Looking forward to it, we could potentially have three top CBs at the club with him, Martinez and Yoro
 
devilish said:
He touched the ball with his hands so many times that he was like playing handball there
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Isn't this more to do with the Serie A handball rule at the time?

Covid-era Serie A was absolutely mental. Every single ball-to-hand contact in the box was given as a pen, and attackers just started intentionally flicking the ball up at defenders' arms. Lazio alone were given 18 pens in 19/20 and Milan were given 20 pens in 20/21. :lol:

For comparison, the most anybody had last season (now they've gone back to using a less batshit insane interpretation of handball) was 7.
 
antohan said:
You mean we get de Ligt for 30M and then give them the additional 12M for taking Antony off our books?

That's the only way that obligation can work if you ask me.
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Antony still probably has a book value of 50 mil or so. Besides I’m sure the Bayern fans would love to see his 360 spin move at the Allianz. And they don’t need to pay money to get Doue any more after.
 
Fortitude said:
Hope he doesn’t get torched in PL. Don’t rate this guy anywhere near as highly as some do.
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Nor me, but I think Martinez, De Ligt, Yoro as our three most senior centre backs is probably an upgrade on Martinez, 2024 Varane, Maguire (and Lindelof).
 
Provided that transfer fees and wages aren’t crazy, I want to know if De Ligt is:
  • an upgrade on Varane for starting spot?
  • an upgrade on Lindelof/Maguire for backup and rotation?
 
Florida Man said:
Provided that transfer fees and wages aren’t crazy, I want to know if De Ligt is:
  • an upgrade on Varane for starting spot?
  • an upgrade on Lindelof/Maguire for backup and rotation?
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I'm unclear on the first point as a fit Varane was a quality player. On the second, he is a clear upgrade.
 
DanH said:
I'm unclear on the first point as a fit Varane was a quality player. On the second, he is a clear upgrade.
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First point is to compare the two regarding quality and availability/fitness. For example he could be slightly less quality than Varane but available and fit significantly more of the time. For me in that scenario that’s an upgrade. But I didn’t watch a lot of De Ligt and I know he had his injuries too. So I want to see what others think.
 
Florida Man said:
Provided that transfer fees and wages aren’t crazy, I want to know if De Ligt is:
  • an upgrade on Varane for starting spot?
  • an upgrade on Lindelof/Maguire for backup and rotation?
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1) He is not as good as Varane was (even the United version of the first season), and likely won't ever be as good as peak Varane. Not sure who would be though, peak Varane is a top 5 CB of last decade.

2) He is definitely better than Lindelof and Maguire. I think he is better than Martinez too.

Basically on him and Martinez we would have two CBs that are very good, but not world class, but still haven't reached their peak. And in Yoro, we have the top prospect in his position, that should surpass both of them in a couple of years.
 
Florida Man said:
Provided that transfer fees and wages aren’t crazy, I want to know if De Ligt is:
  • an upgrade on Varane for starting spot?
  • an upgrade on Lindelof/Maguire for backup and rotation?
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Yoro will most likely play ahead of him often (but perhaps de Ligt still gets half the starts)
 
Revan said:
1) He is not as good as Varane was (even the United version of the first season), and likely won't ever be as good as peak Varane. Not sure who would be though, peak Varane is a top 5 CB of last decade.

2) He is definitely better than Lindelof and Maguire. I think he is better than Martinez too.

Basically on him and Martinez we would have two CBs that are very good, but not world class, but still haven't reached their peak. And in Yoro, we have the top prospect in his position, that should surpass both of them in a couple of years.
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Putting it like that, I’d feel very positively about our back line going into the season.
 
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