[Big Ben Foster]

You have made that part up

Why would a number 1 goalkeeper ever accept a lower salary than a number 2 goalkeeper?

 

[led_scholes]

You have made that part up

Yes, it's an assumption based on when someone comes as a starter, he will have a higher wage than his backup (or at least parity).

 

[Cassidy]

To get to this conclusion, you'd have to assume that within those games where he keeps a clean sheet, he doesn't face any attempts at goal or if he does, that somehow the stats can tell the level of save he made


Neither of which are true or possible using stats.

You could show that he faces an average of 4 shots, makes 3 saves and has 15 clean sheets, therefore statistically he is making game saving saves frequently, but then again, you can't.

No you don't assume anything, the stat doesn't speak to his shot stopping. The assumption being made when you use the stats to reference shot stopping is that he had to make saves to keep the clean sheets.
The stat tells you nothing about the question asked

 

[Cassidy]

Why would a number 1 goalkeeper ever accept a lower salary than a number 2 goalkeeper?

Why does Licha get paid less than Maguire?
Someone like Raya isn't going to command 175k, Costa probably wouldn't either

 

[JB7]

Why does Licha get paid less than Maguire?
Someone like Raya isn't going to command 175k, Costa probably wouldn't either

In fairness Maguire didn't sign a new contract last summer. That's the concern for me. You set a dangerous precedent if you're giving a goalkeeper a huge contract but making it clear he won't be first choice.

 

[Cassidy]

In fairness Maguire didn't sign a new contract last summer. That's the concern for me. You set a dangerous precedent if you're giving a goalkeeper a huge contract but making it clear he won't be first choice.

Licha was coming to play as a starter and no1 CB for ETH and hes took a salary lower than Maguire because its still alot more than he was on already and probably more than what he would have got elsewhere.
Same for both Costa and Raya
DDG contract apparently has appearance based incentives in there too, so maybe he won't be paid more if hes warming the bench anyway
Either way it doesn't dictate what the new player will get (because they won't even know what DDGs being paid anyway)

 

[JB7]

Licha was coming to play as a starter and no1 CB for ETH and hes took a salary lower than Maguire because its still alot more than he was on already and probably more than what he would have got elsewhere.
Same for both Costa and Raya
DDG contract apparently has appearance based incentives in there too, so maybe he won't be paid more if hes warming the bench anyway
Either way it doesn't dictate what the new player will get (because they won't even know what DDGs being paid anyway)

I'm not disputing any of that and I'm not the one saying that a new goalkeeper will expect parity, I just think it sets a dangerous precedent. And I also think it's ridiculous having a back-up goalkeeper with a completely different style to the first choice goalkeeper too, so there is that. It's also ridiculous paying him anything more than about £75k a week too given that nobody wants him but there you go.

 

[led_scholes]

Why does Licha get paid less than Maguire?
Someone like Raya isn't going to command 175k, Costa probably wouldn't either

Because they didn't sign the same time and because Licha doesn't exclude Maguire being the other number 1:you can tell licha that you will be our first CB, but that doesn’t mean Maguire won't be the other starting CB (in theory you can even have 3 CBs starting together). You can also say that Maguires contract happened 3 years ago and now we follow different rules etc. How can you persuade a player and his agent to come here with less money than his backup which was just granted a big extension?

 

[Cassidy]

Because they didn't sign the same time and because Licha doesn't exclude Maguire being the other number 1:you can tell licha that you will be our first CB, but that doesn’t mean Maguire won't be the other starting CB (in theory you can even have 3 CBs starting together). You can also say that Maguires contract happened 3 years ago and now we follow different rules etc. How can you persuade a player and his agent to come here with less money than his backup which was just granted a big extension?

Because same with Licha it would be more than you would get elsewhere e.g competitive, that's how its done.
The length of the deal also plays a massive part too.

 

[Dec9003]

Stats give a very limited picture of a players true performance level. And you can find the stats to back up any opinion if you want to.

The shot stopping stat(s) can't tell you what type of shot a keeper saves for example, only watching a player can. Did it takes deflection? Was the keeper unsighted. Far to many variables involved.

It's a similar story with most stats relating to keepers. Save ratios are largely meaningless because some keepers face 1 shot a game, others 10.

Even taking Raya who some want over De Gea, a simple look at the stats don't really paint a convincing picture that he is in anyway the answer. Of course in this case the amateur staticians will suddenly understand that stats only give a glimpse of a players real quality and explain the nuances... Which is exactly what's happened already

What should we use to judge De Gea’s performances this season, then? If the stats show that he’s below average, the eye test isn’t great and he’s making costly errors then I’m not sure what else there is to judge him with?

 

[gajender]

Licha was coming to play as a starter and no1 CB for ETH and hes took a salary lower than Maguire because its still alot more than he was on already and probably more than what he would have got elsewhere.
Same for both Costa and Raya
DDG contract apparently has appearance based incentives in there too, so maybe he won't be paid more if hes warming the bench anyway

Every contract has Appearances bonus that's standard practice what matters is the split between basic wage and the variables in Overall package .
So his 175 k wages might include 100k basic and rest could be made up of Appearances Bonuses etc which won't come into effect if he warming the bench as you pointed out .

But it's still a stupid decision from Murtough and definitely a sackable offense .

 

[Cassidy]

Every contract has Appearances bonus that's standard practice what matters is the split between basic wage and the variables in Overall package .
So his 175 k wages might include 100k basic and rest could be made up of Appearances Bonuses etc which won't come into effect if he warming the bench as you pointed out .

But it's still a stupid decision from Murtough and definitely a sackable offense .

I agree, I didn't contest that point

 

[Big Ben Foster]

Every contract has Appearances bonus that's standard practice what matters is the split between basic wage and the variables in Overall package .
So his 175 k wages might include 100k basic and rest could be made up of Appearances Bonuses etc which won't come into effect if he warming the bench as you pointed out .

But it's still a stupid decision from Murtough and definitely a sackable offense .

100k basic would still make him the highest-paid backup keeper in the league. Unless we failed to sell Henderson, in which case he'd be the highest-paid backup and DDG would be the second highest.

 

[gajender]

100k basic would still make him the highest-paid backup keeper in the league. Unless we failed to sell Henderson, in which case he'd be the highest-paid backup and DDG would be the second highest.

If it were upto me De Gea would have been sent packing long time ago but United are run by morons and it seems like Murtough and Ten hag are no better than their predecessors .

 

[JB7]

100k basic would still make him the highest-paid backup keeper in the league. Unless we failed to sell Henderson, in which case he'd be the highest-paid backup and DDG would be the second highest.

It's completely insane. What other club out there would give him £100k to be their number one, let alone number two?

 

[RedDevilQuebecois]

ETH wants him, hence the new deal. Trust the manager

There is a reason why they are not sporting directors and (deservedly often) have less power in modern football.

This is another example of peak stupidity by a manager.

Whether he's backup or not, the most important thing is that we reduce his wages. We have a long list of priorities and De Gea is relatively far down on that list.

I don't want him with reduced wages. He has had plenty of howlers in the last 2 years to never play for the club ever again. It's a matter of being ruthless.

 

[Cassidy]

ETH wants him, hence the new deal. Trust the manager

Disingenuous

 

[Abhinav]

If it were upto me De Gea would have been sent packing long time ago but United are run by morons and it seems like Murtough and Ten hag are no better than their predecessors .

While I don’t want to DDG to stay or be a number one GK next season, I would probably take the same decision as Murtough in extending DDGs contract at a lower wage, considering the circumstances.

We need to sign a striker, a ball playing CM this summer at a bare minimum. That is easily around £160-180m.
Given our ownership situation is still not sorted, the rumours are that we have 100m of addition transfer budget.
Optimistically, we make 100m by selling Maguire, DVB, Fred, Henderson, Martial plus one or two others.

That leaves us with a budget of 20-40 M for a new keeper. At best that will buy us a promising but not established keeper like Costa or Raya. There is a good chance that these keepers don’t take the step up immediately. Who do we turn to? Having DDG as a back-up looks a lot better decision in that scenario.

 

[Gaidal]

Giving De Gea a new contract is the second worst footballing decision ever. Only beaten by giving De Gea a 5 year 375k a week contract 5 years ago.

 

[johnnyteutonic]

Well the ‘worst GK in the league’ is just nonsense. Some mentioning Raya as a replacement when DDG has a better pass completion rate.

- 12th in save %
- 1st in clean sheets
- 6th for GA per 90mins
- 2 mistakes leading to goals

Admittedly I’d look to move him on this summer if the right move is available, but to say he’s right behind ST when we’re playing a LB at CB is just asinine.

Where did you get stats that show Raya has a worse pass completion rate anyway? The stats I've found show he ranks 2nd highest in the premier league for pass completion percentage for Launched kicks, only behind Allison:
https://fbref.com/en/comps/9/keepersadv/Premier-League-Stats

Mate, this is just plain cherry-picking statistics and some of the stats you use are team statistics, like clean sheets, which is a reflection on the defence as a unit.
It also doesn't tell you about what happened in the games that actually involved the team conceding goals, and for us, we have prominent examples like Brentford 4-0 and Liverpool 7-0.

Pass completion rate is also a very flawed statistic that is highly contingent upon playing style. For example, keepers who are more adventurous with passing can rank lower for that stat but the eye test will tell you they are good at distribution.

And you mention mistakes leading to goals but de Gea is number 1 for cumulative mistakes leading to goals over the past two seasons!

 

[humdinger]

I was really hoping we would come to our senses here. Daft decision.

I guess it could have been worse, we could have ended up going for an absolutely ridiculous replacement like Meslier. At least now I can still have hope that when we do replace him we’ll do it well.

 

[gajender]

While I don’t want to DDG to stay or be a number one GK next season, I would probably take the same decision as Murtough in extending DDGs contract at a lower wage, considering the circumstances.

We need to sign a striker, a ball playing CM this summer at a bare minimum. That is easily around £160-180m.
Given our ownership situation is still not sorted, the rumours are that we have 100m of addition transfer budget.
Optimistically, we make 100m by selling Maguire, DVB, Fred, Henderson, Martial plus one or two others.

That leaves us with a budget of 20-40 M for a new keeper. At best that will buy us a promising but not established keeper like Costa or Raya. There is a good chance that these keepers don’t take the step up immediately. Who do we turn to? Having DDG as a back-up looks a lot better decision in that scenario.

That's fair enough mate but I still believe clean break would still have been better option , let's hope we aren't tying ourselves in knots by giving him long contract on unreasonable wages.

2+1 contract with 1 year option being on Club side with back up player Basic Wages and major component of top end wages tied in with Appearances and Clean Sheet bonuses though it's far from ideal but is still much more palatable.

 

[croadyman]

That's fair enough mate but I believe clean break would still have been better option .

Yes we definitely should have gone for clean break

 

[Abhinav]

That's fair enough mate but I still believe clean break would still have been better option , let's hope we aren't tying ourselves in knots by giving him long contract on unreasonable wages.

2+1 contract with 1 year option being on Club side with back up player Basic Wages and major component of top end wages tied in with Appearances and Clean Sheet bonuses though it's far from ideal but is still much more palatable.

Would have preferred a clean break myself. The combo of Maguire, Lindelof & DDG screwing up over & over again, especially when there is something on line, has given me heartburn to last a decade. Can definitely sympathise with people who want to make a clean break and put the trauma behind them.

 

[JagUTD]

What should we use to judge De Gea’s performances this season, then? If the stats show that he’s below average, the eye test isn’t great and he’s making costly errors then I’m not sure what else there is to judge him with?

The eye test is fine. Is he at his absolute best? Obviously not, his best was a ridiculous level few reach.

Nobody is making the claim he is still at his best though.

It's also telling that the anti De Gea mob just so happen to be the same posters on every thread who have nothing good to say about anything related to United. Makes it diffiy to take anything they say seriously quite frankly.

Probably also explains why you keep seeing others suggesting to put them on ignore and why the little group of a dozen or so think they're in the majority when it comes to their opinions...

 

[FootyGirl88]

Giving De Gea a new contract is the second worst footballing decision ever. Only beaten by giving De Gea a 5 year 375k a week contract 5 years ago.

Jones was definitely number one, no doubt about it.

 

[Dec9003]

The eye test is fine. Is he at his absolute best? Obviously not, his best was a ridiculous level few reach.

Nobody is making the claim he is still at his best though.

It's also telling that the anti De Gea mob just so happen to be the same posters on every thread who have nothing good to say about anything related to United. Makes it diffiy to take anything they say seriously quite frankly.

Probably also explains why you keep seeing others suggesting to put them on ignore and why the little group of a dozen or so think they're in the majority when it comes to their opinions...

The eye test isn’t fine, though. He’s not a great shot stopper anymore, let’s in more than we would expect and struggles with all other aspects of goalkeeping like he always has. I’m not really interested in discussing agendas of other posters, it has nothing to do with De Gea and to me that just comes off as a way of trying to defend our goalkeeper without having to explain what he actually does well with any proof to back it up.

 

[Chaky_Best]

1 thing important here is wanting De Gea to be replaced, and hated him. We can dislike our players as much as we want, but the hate he faces is a bit too harsh.

Yes he needs to be replaced next yera, and we need to find a better keeper, but we should not go in this hate circus (even for Maguire).

He will sign a new deal based on matches, so if he is backup keeper that's fine also.

 

[lilcurt]

I don't get people hating De Gea been a very good servant for us.

I think the balanced opinion is, appreciate all he has done but recognise it's time for change and move him on.

 

[evil_geko]

Good to hear there is new deal for Dave in spite of the haters! Have even more confidence in Ten Hag now. He will be brilliant backup GK!

 

[Slevs]

No one hates him, stop playing the victim card every time someone's favorite player is under question.
He's not good enough for what the club should be aiming for.

 

[evil_geko]

No one hates him, stop playing the victim card every time someone's favorite player is under question.
He's not good enough for what the club should be aiming for.

There are tons of disgraceful abusing posts that are beyond hateful, so just don't. Maybe you do not, but there are lots here.

 

[arnie_ni]

No one hates him, stop playing the victim card every time someone's favorite player is under question.
He's not good enough for what the club should be aiming for.

There's been multiple posters in the multiple threads have said they hate him

 

[Oranges038]

It makes a lot of sense to keep him in some capacity next season. Bring in another guy maybe to challenge him, but leaves you with a smoother transition when you do replace him regardless.

The Pep/Joe Hart situation is a ridiculous comparison. That City side had Aguero, Silva, KDB, Toure, Fernandinho, Sterling in their side, and bought in Sane (I think Stones too I think?). They were a squad that needed minor improvements.

Same with when Liverpool got Allison - they had their front three, plus TAA/Robertson/van Dijk. Fabinho I think came at the same time? They'd just come of making the CL final. Again, minor improvements.

We're batting the top 4, have no functioning strikers, an ageing midfield and defenders that need replacing soon. You need to plan for 3 years from now, not next season.

It makes no sense. He's been here 12 years and is worse now than he ever was when he came in. Yet, is still being rewarded for being one of the worst keepers in the league over a number of seasons.

May as well give Maguire and Martial new deals now while they are at it.

 

[evil_geko]

May as well give Maguire and Martial new deals now while they are at it.

Not comparable, you barely rotate GK through the season, while you rotate rest of players much more where you need more quality for that.

 

[Revaulx]

Im not disagreeing with you btw, im just saying thats what people were saying around the time he got his contract extension. It made no sense then,its even more baffling now if we sign him.
If hes a starter, were looking at the same issues of trying to dominate games (in that we will struggle, even with Varane, Martinez back, Shaw back to LB, a better striker etc)
It will mean going for top four rather than the title.

If were offering this to DDG, fair play to him, why should he turn it down? I cant wait to see what the wages are. Even if they are 100k, its mad to have a second choice keeper on that, if thats what happens (and it wont)

This feckin owner takeover is the biggest piss take. We have no clarity at all in terms of whats happening, when it will happen and its going to feck up our transfer window.

True. All I can see is yet another load if players leaving on frees.

 

[Godfather]

So are we going to pretend this was a good decision again?

 

[JagUTD]

No one hates him, stop playing the victim card every time someone's favorite player is under question.
He's not good enough for what the club should be aiming for.

Not just hate but some of the worst takes I have seen from any football fans.

When you're wanting the manager out because a player sog s a new contract, you're potentially an idiot.

 

[NinjaZombie]

They've renewed his contract??

This club....I have no words. We used to demand excellence, now we're rewarding sentimental mediocrity.

 

[Oranges038]

Not comparable, you barely rotate GK through the season, while you rotate rest of players much more where you need more quality for that.

Why not? It'd just be another case of rewarding mediocrity yet again.

And we wonder why the club us in such a fecking mess.

Any half competent club would have booted him out after 1 or 2 years or bad form, we've seen this same shit as the last few weeks from him before, when the going gets tough, Dave takes it upon himself to make it harder for the rest of the team. Yet here we are 5 years later and just after weeks of pathetic mistakes and he's probably getting a new deal.

Mind boggling.