The fact people are splitting hairs over various nuances of similar looking stats produced by Bruno and KdB says it all really. One of these players will be indisputably recognised as one of the best ever PL players. The other is being blamed by some of his own team fans as the main reason for the failings of that team. Something doesn’t compute.
8
Season Average Rating
- Appearances
- 17
- Goals
- 3
- Assists
- 7
- Yellow cards
- 3
- Red cards
- 2
A fairer question might be does he look better with a functioning midfield behind him. The answer is obviously yes. If you asked the same question of De Bruyne, you’d get the same answer.
1. But you said that to compete and dominate games he isn’t suited but would keep him? So my question is do you want the manager to try and dominate and control games or do you want keep Bruno ? Also.. I heard this when Ole was in charge.. we will never win a trophy with Bruno..
2. So if we get Bruno, we will be ready to win the league? Why do fans make it sound so simple.. the reason we don’t win the league is Bruno?
3. Incorrect.. Klopp’s team was not control, it was high press and very direct play. You can tell the difference as Liverpool under Slot want to be more controlled. So no not all great teams have build up and control. Another example is the Real Madrid team that has won so many CL’s, they did not have control or build up, a lot of their goals were of individual brilliance from their players. Look at the CL final v Liverpool and Dortmund, it was far from controlled and build up goals.
4. I brought up LVG as the MANCHESTER UNITED manager not his career. We had a lot of build up and control in those games. I understand you prefer that football but that doesn’t mean that is the only way to win titles.
Yep, I forget that KdB plays in a team that doesn't accommodate him or has a system that allows players to thrive. KdB is clear of Bruno.. lets get that agreed first but just because a "big dog" doesn't approach us, means he is not a good player?
I wonder if you think players like Son, Moussa Dembele are rubbish too?
It's maddening to watch it unfold. Or it used to be. Now I've just come to accept that this is the way the forum is. It's just better to laugh at and occasionally block that which can't be reasoned with.
Whether he wins a PL trophy or not I'll still sing Bruno's praises long after he retires. He's a modern day Robson (different styles and roles obviously, just in case there are any nutters jumping over their keyboard).
Not to mention a manager who is consistently able to get the most out of all the players at his disposal and usually wins the in game tactical battles with his opposite number.
I don't disagree with that. But what top-team plays with two workhorses to free-up a classic #10 nowadays? This is the more pertinent question. Are we building castles in the sand (like the scousers did with Gerrard)? It's a question for Amorim, i guess. If he makes it tick, all is good. If he doesn't, we'll keep having the same boring discussions. People laugh at McFred now, but, back then, we had threads about how we function better with them in the centre of the park. Perhaps, they weren't the cause of our malaise, but a symptom of trying to play to our best players' (not just Bruno's) strengths.
Better not be talking about Bryan here
It depends what you call a workhorse.. some people would say Casemiro isn't a workhorse.
But anyway.. Chelsea play with 2 DM's Lavia and Caceido
Arsenal play with Partey and Rice
Real play with 3 actually... Valverde, Tchouameni and Cammavinga
Bayern have Paulinha and Kimmich.
Better not be talking about Bryan here
- The best United player in a poor period for the club
- Hard-working
- Heavily involved in the game
- Professional
- Captain
- By all accounts a good leader behind the scenes (complaining on the pitch does not equal poor leadership)
It's a valid comparison. It doesn't matter if Robson was better or had a different role. And no, it doesn't make a difference that Robson won the PL. He would still have been remembered fondly as a club legend even if he had retired before that.
And four fecking centre backs behind them! But listening to some of the most frequent posters in here Bruno is an absolute disaster who is constantly losing the ball and Odegaard protects it like a new born baby. Again, something doesn’t compute.
They aren't rubbish. It's you who's taking things to extremes now. I've argued on this forum that Son has more to his game than Rashford and that he should provide the example for what Garnacho can become. They aren't elite or world-class players, either. They are players who at their absolute best in transitions. And, no, KdB, doesn't need the whole team to be built around him. He can play as a #8, as a #10 or in the wings and Pep's system will work just fine.
Yeah, we won't agree. Most of the players you mention offer much more on the ball for their respective sides than whatever we have conjured up till now.
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And while we're discussing other players... Ødegaard, who I rate very highly, lost possession in a very clumsy manner on his own half near the end of the 2022-23 season. The other team scored from that mistake and Arsenal dropped 1 or 2 points. This was when City and Arsenal were neck-and-neck (albeit City had a game in hand) and the PL trophy was still on the line.
If that had been Bruno then it would have been one of his top 3 biggest United mistakes ever. Not just because it was so clumsy but also because of where it happened on the pitch (which matters a lot). It's easy to forget that these other players make blunders too. It's a part of football.
But you say that players aren't good because "big dogs" haven't come for them.. Must have thought Vidic, Evra, Carrick, Scholes, Giggs etc... and the like weren't world class then? As big dogs didnt come for them.
Also.. City have also shown they dont need KdB to win the league, they have coped with him out multiple times and won the league.. so its clearly the Pep system rather than the players..
Finally, you talk about those players offer more on the ball? I would give you evidence that rebuts that, as Casemiro has more G/A than all of those midfielders...
1. It’s a process. We aren’t going from 14th to 1st in a span of 2 years. It’ll take time to make us a dominant team and that’s if Amorim is a top class manager. So during the transitional phase we need Bruno as he needs us, of course. You heard that we’ll never win a major trophy like the PL or CL, and we haven’t so that claim has held true so far.
2. Actually you’re the one making it sound overly simple. I like Bruno and think he’s a very good footballer. At the same time, whenever we eventually become that team that finally wins the league, in such a crucial role like the 10 (if we still have it), we’ll have to have someone with better ball control, ability in tight spaces and playmaking qualities than Bruno. That doesn’t mean sell Bruno, win the league. It means as we plan to build a team - which involves improving on loads of positions - can challenge for the title 5 years from now, we look at some of the qualities our current number 10 lacks and ensure the successor has them.
3. Wrong. Your mistake is that you think that Pep is control and control is Pep. Klopp initially started with “heavy metal football” at Liverpool but all their success came once they dialled it down for more control. Everyone know followed them during this period saw this switch - and regardless, they kept the ball brilliantly when they won the league and CL. Madrid are another one people mistake for a lack of control. They didn’t have Xavi or Iniesta but they had Modric and Kroos. They didn’t dominate the ball all the time but they were similar to our great teams in that they mostly were assured and superb in possession. Can you imagine Bruno misplacing passes every 5 minutes as he sometimes does away at average PL opponents instead of the calm and assured Modric? Would be hilarious stuff and he’d get dropped in a jiffy.
4. You brought up something that wasn’t relevant. It’s like saying Scottish managers are crap because of David Moyes. I actually wouldn’t want us to play like City - I prefer a more high octane style of football. However, that doesn’t change the fact that great teams now need to be great at ball retention whether they average 55 or 68 per cent possession, and that’s where Bruno needs to be improved upon (eventually).
I don’t see what the issue is. People take it as such an insult if someone says Bruno isn’t suited to a great team. You’d think we’re talking about a player who has actually been a major part of many great sides. It happens - De Gea was clearly unsuited as well despite hitting an even higher individual level with claims of him being among our best 3 or even 2 keepers ever, yet not many got defensive about him.
We will continue to disagree, going back and forth over the same things..
We finished 2nd and 3rd with Bruno in the team with no control apparently..
Apparently Bruno misplaces pass every 5 mins but has the similar pass accuracy as a KdB in a controlled team... shows how much 90 mins you watch.
Lets see what Amorim does, you dont think we will be controlled under him, I do.
Evra, Giggs, Scholes etc. didn't need to move away because United were the biggest dog in their playing days. Everyone in the PL was dying to come play for us under Ferguson. But this is a minor point.
Yes, City can function well without KdB. They don't even need Haaland to win the PL, for that matter. Does it mean that Haalnd isn't the best forward in the world? It's a testament to how much "less accommodating" the Belgian needs. On the other hand, United crumble in the final third whenever Bruno's having a bad day. It could be a testament to how much "more accommodating" the latter needs 9and, perhaps, why he would be a bad fit for the ultimate system manager). As i mentioned to the other poster, it's what Amorim needs to work out and where the previous managers failed. If he manages to make us title challengers with Bruno in his 343, fair fecks to both him and Bruno. It's that simple.
Circulation, control, rhythm and tempo. Not everything is about G+A. Since Solskjaer, United have focused on getting the best out of the Bruno-Rashford combo. It has led us to opt for a more direct/transitional game, which isn't bad per se. But, in the last six years, these two have looked at their best whenever the dial is turned to 11 with that approach. Which is why you read people on here saying that we should change the approach. It's fine to believe that, with the right coach, the same plan will bear fruit. It's certainly the shortest way to get back to the top. You won't see me complaining.
So what you dont think Manutd are big dogs then? So because a select of 5/6 clubs haven't come for Bruno, he is not good? Cause I am not claiming he is world class, you're the one who brought up didnt get picked up by big dogs.
No... actually City needed Haaland to win the PL/ CL.. the season they signed him they won the CL.. which they had been struggling to win.
No, little, some, a lot and total are words with very different meanings. If you think we had no control, then that’s on you.
Btw these great 2nd and 3rd placed finishes were not title challenges. We were the best of the rest and nothing more, in the league. That’s obviously not the context in which I am speaking when I speak of great sides and winning major titles.
No, sadly, we haven't been top dogs for quite a while now. And no, again, i think he's a great player who can show world-class creativity under particular circumstances. I just mentioned that, despite his dazzling numbers, no one seems willing (thus far) to offer him the chance to become a part of a better side and lead them. It's a response to "If he was playing at a better side, his numbers would be even more impressive". Finally, no, they don't and never did. They were a side that was averaging 3+ goals per game before his arrival. And i don't recall him scoring any goals that made the difference in the SF and in the Final (the stages where they usually faltered in the previous seasons) of that season.
I am not the one who said "Bruno isn’t well suited to controlling games given all the times we’ve seen us trying to and him being a turnover machine." No words like little, small... just control. Could be 1% or 100% control, you mentioned control. So its not my words, its yours.
Its always changing the goal post with you isnt it.
This is the thing... people look at individual games but forget the fact that he scored 12 goals in the entire CL.. but okay he made no impact.
I don't remember the exact incident but but going off your description, we've seen Bruno do stuff like that countless times (usually followed by him rolling around on the floor pretending to be injured) which may be why it's more easily forgiven when other players do similar. He also has a tendency to try stupid flicks in his own half which inevitably end with him giving the ball away and our defenders being exposed to counter attacks. The regularity of which these things occur with Bruno are why he gets so much stick in comparison with someone like Odegaard.
We should study every muscle in his legs. It's crazy how little he gets injuries. There must be some science to it.
My entire viewpoint is in the context of the team we aspire to be which is made blatantly obvious by my preference to keep him as a key starter for the next couple of years.
I genuinely can't remember a single incident where Bruno lost the ball in our own half and our defence wasn't established and the mistake directly lead to a goal. Losing the ball deep into the opponent's half with an established defence behind you is not really the same thing. And those are the primary ways Bruno loses possession (pass and shot attempts not included as that's not what we're discussing).
I also think Bruno's possession losses are exaggerated. These are dispossessed + unsuccessful touches per 90 this season:
Ødegaard: 3.3
De Bruyne: 2.8
Bruno: 2.7
Palmer: 2.5
We have fans like @amolbhatia50k who say he is dispossessed every 5 mins.. which means he has seen games where Bruno is dispossessed on average 18 times a game... I suspect they are not aware that most creative players will lose the ball.
And honestly, why would anyone want a creative player with a pass accuracy in the high 80's/low 90's who never gets dispossessed? That just means that they never take any chances.
Also worth noting that Bruno is far more involved in the game than his peers (De Bruyne has played uncharacteristically many passes this season though). Obviously, if you make 40 pass attempts instead of 65 and also have less responsibility to make something happen on the pitch then you'll quickly look more silky and less wasteful.
Stats should be banned outside of the actual coaching staff, then perhaps everyone else could get back to actually watching and enjoying the game instead of concentrating on x this or x that, z has more assists than y and so on
Exactly. Also I see fans moaning that Pep has made football robotic and boring.. its not just Pep, its fans too.
You cant expect wingers to try take ons, creative players create when after games you look at passing accuracy or possession lost to criticise them. Certain fans want creativity, excitement but also players not to give the ball away.
I would want Bruno in a team to create chances, the more chances the team creates the higher the chance of getting goals, its simple.
And speaking of Pep... Maybe it's just me, but when I see his teams play then I also notice that his strikers, wingers and yes, often his AMs too are given PLENTY of freedom to express themselves and take chances.
Pep is not my cup of tea, but it's a total myth that his attacking phase is micromanaged to oblivion. The buildup and the defending is micromanaged, but only to a point. It's laughable to suggest that Bruno wouldn't work in his setup.
That was clearly hyperbole. Would have thought your radar would have picked up something so obvious.
Creative players will lose the ball more but Bruno is far more erratic than the best creative players. So you have to concede him lacking quick feet, ability in tight spaces, reliable playmaking qualities, physicality and pace, for his impressive creativity. Basically he’s a very good player but as always, stats don’t tell the full story and he’s also got major flaws. Everyone but blinkered fans of ours get that.
I think you’ve got that final sentence back to front. It’s blinkered United fans that are the most critical. Most oppo fans I talk to consider him as basically our only really top class player.
From what I’ve seen, Bruno is rated pretty aptly. The non United fans I’ve spoken to or pundits in the media seem to consider him very good and hugely important to us but not top class. And then I’d also argue that our fans - the ones who aren’t his big fans - are also able to judge him correctly as they see all his terrific contributions as well as his erratic all over the place general play.
As with most players, it’s the fans of the player who typically defend the player against any criticism and overrate them. That’s general how it is with any player, I reckon.
Having said that, it would obviously be brilliant if the new manager is able to bring Bruno and the collective’s levels to new heights. The 343 may just suit him better as hopefully the three attackers are more connected than in previous systems.
Let's get out the annoying manners Bruno tends to have, to just focus on his footballing atributes. Even if some times some of his antics can end in lack of concentration or even yellows, I think we should leave those aspects aside because many times we end putting too much on those aspects and we can be unfair with the player talent in question.
Bruno plays in Portugal's NT, in a generation with lots of really good midfielders. Bruno plays in Manchester United, a huge club since years without problems regarding the weight of the shirt, so, YES Bruno obviosuly is a player than can play in big club, it's very silly to even have to write this.
The thing with Bruno, it's what sort of game, you'll expect of him.
For me Bruno would have been more suitable for Serie A in the 90's where players like Totti, Veron and cia could attemp almost everytime they wanted a long ball, killer passes, difficult ones in order to at least generate a mistake from the rival and later pressure their last line, or surprise with someone running into space. The ball would instantly return to each side, since putting the ball far from your own net was athing too and pressure was pretty common in those days with many teams there, no matter how talented the players involved were.
In this current EPL were most of teams try to keep it, that even not entirely capable defenders almost always try to play the ball from the back, there isn't too much space for such approach since sometimes you might not see the ball for a long period if your rival grabs it.
There relies the main reason why people goes over the top with the Bruno not controlling. He does not feel that much the short passing, the holding the ball under his feet. He has an urge to try a killer ball if he sees the oportunity due to his excellent technique and other aspects more related to the current Man Utd in this last years:
- Lack of recovery in the middle
- Lack of finishing upfront
- Lack of support to pass it, meaning the great majority of times at least one or better two clear options of passing
- And in his case the responsability he feels of do sthg. (more when he is the Captain) of create a chance a goal in those moments he feels he has a chance to do it, overrides how his team is positioned, the consequences if that ball does not work, the excess of confidence of even having that pass/play in him.
YET Bruno even having great technique, will suffer more than other midfielders in certain aspects:
- Holding the ball, since he lacks in the dribbling department, while he lacks a stronger bigger build in comparison with other players that excell in such department, or even being short, he isn't build like a little bull. Also not loosing it, it's not just that, the very best pull out a rabbit gaining acres, a killer pass or merely time, to let his team settle and re organized.
- He has a great strike and a knack and confidence for goals, but he ain't a powerful and pacey box to box neither.
So at the end of the day he is a very technical player in some aspects, with some urgencies that he has to manage better, with the proper confidence on himself to play at any Big Club, but lacking in the physical and other technical atributes that if a team ain't in their best shape, with the best partners to suit his style, he'll provide numbers, but the timing of those (within the game itself or overall in a season) will not translate sometimes in a better perfomance by the team.
Bruno since years needs a proper coach to guide him better and gain more of his atributes, than on contrary watching him "enhacing" his urge to "do thsg. now before everything goes to shit or I can't do it". Many midfielder with similar physical characteristics, with even diff urges or tendencies, changed his game when aging, Bruno since to stubbornly play the Bruno way no matter what and I trully think it's also due to his coaches to not guide him better and surround him better.
Xavi went the opposite of Bruno, a midfielder that hold it too much, that was afraid to be closer to the rival area, that used his turn around constantly on a very annoying way, to become more dinamic, to offer himself while moving, to dare to shoot more, to dare to put more killer balls, without loosing his main atributes.
Of course he had a huge coach in Pep, he had the best mates out there to makes things more smooth, but it's rare why Bruno plays only the Bruno way with already so many coaches not trying to make him reflect on his game, what he has in his pocket and how to diminish the problems he can create with what he doesn't have in his pocket.
PD: Sorry for the very long rant and regarding the "most creative players will lose the ball" quoted, yeap it's true, but many of those creative players that loose it a lot (it's part of the game) loose the ball trying form instance to dribble.
So even if he looses the ball quite a lot, it doesn't happen ALL the time, but it has to be taken in account that for a not dribbling mid and a player that doesn't put the ball under his feet to clean a play, gain momentum, or create some space, he does loosses to much, sometimes in a very cheap way. Players in his role that looses the ball many times, like the role requires (you have to try), are more prone to dribble or holding it than Bruno does.
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If Bruno was part of a winning team with United he would be a United legend by the time he leaves. That’s his biggest downfall, he is part of a really torrid era at the club, although he has done pretty damn well with what he has got to work with. At times he has been unbelievable for us, admittedly he has had some poor spells aswell. He is one of the few players that has understood what it means to wear this shirt over the last 10 years and I’d say the best signing post fergie.
He is moving up the all time goal charts, sandwiched in between Beckham and cantona (not bad company) and 6th for all time assists for the club. Really really impressive stuff. (Not comparing him to either of those players or how many games they played etc) but it’s still impressive when you think about the shite he has played with at times.
Question is, if he can win a MAJOR trophy before he leaves, would he go down with the best? Would it Be enough for him to be classed as a legend?
He is moving up the all time goal charts, sandwiched in between Beckham and cantona (not bad company) and 6th for all time assists for the club. Really really impressive stuff. (Not comparing him to either of those players or how many games they played etc) but it’s still impressive when you think about the shite he has played with at times.
Question is, if he can win a MAJOR trophy before he leaves, would he go down with the best? Would it Be enough for him to be classed as a legend?
Dribbling is not the be all and end all.
Bruno is far more than just a creative/productive player. He has 3 advantages over most of his comparable peers in the PL:
1) He is much better defensively
Tackles and interceptions per 90:
Bruno: 3.2
Ødegaard: 2.1
Palmer: 1.1
De Bruyne: 1.0
2) He is a lot more involved in the game
Passes per 90:
De Bruyne: 60.2 (BIG outlier season! He's normally below 45)
Bruno: 49.7
Ødegaard: 34.5
Palmer: 34.3
3) His injury record
No need to elaborate, I hope..
Christ on a fecking bike!
I find a few things quite interesting in these stats.
"Bruno give us no control"... yet he averages more touches per game than the ones who play in teams of greater control.
Some of the things people say.. they see him give the ball away few times in a game means he cannot play in a controlled team, he gives ball away every 5 mins, he cant keep the ball.
Focus on all the negatives and ignore all the positives Bruno gives to the team.
Then, we have all players and managers who have worked with him, speak very highly of his leadership qualities, but caf says he isn't a leader.
He must be the only player who hasn't fallen out with any manager yet, from Ole, Carrick, Rangnick, Ten Hang and RVN. All highly speak of him.