[Crimson King]

Same as last season

Yeah I guess you're right, sort of forgot about that. I guess we were so bad and had so many injuries it felt like he had an excuse. This season we're mostly fit and other players have reached a good enough standard by this point, yet he's really lagging behind.

I'm finding it really hard to defend performances like his against Palace at the moment.

 

[Top_Bins]

Looks like we're suffering from another undroppable captain.
The writing should now be on the wall at least and he can't go on with sub par performances for too long.
Perhaps I am being naïve, as it seems all of our managers have undroppable players.

 

[Oldyella]

Mount is good enough for keeping possession. This was never a question, but his creativity/passing is a big question mark. Although to be fair he was never out in Bruno role (a guy who is there to take risks) so it's hard to tell.

I also don't think LW is a problem if the rest of the team is good at this possession based football. I'd actually rather have a player that makes those runs behind the defense than have another Amad on LW.

Mount is good enough, but we really need to see him stay fit for a prolonged period before we can fully trust him.

 

[Grand Vizier]

I know your a fan of Bruno, do you think his completion rate is good enough for a possession based team?

De Bruyne last season avg 83.9%
Ødegaard last season avg 86.8%
Bruno last season avg 79.6%

The pass completion rate is not the main problem with Bruno. It never has been, so I don't get why this is still brought up by some. It has been the decision making and a tendency to ruin simple chances and unable to do basic stuff. It has never been as bad as these last two seasons, but it really has become a huge problem now. The video a few pages back where he passed straight into the opponent 3 times in the space of 30 seconds sums it up. That's how you get 20 shots against you in a game.

I think I've done this discussion 10 times before, but the short answer is yes. 80% (plus/minus a few percentage points) can be enough if you do other things well.

Personally I see no reason for why an AM should have more than 85% pass completion. Ødegaard plays a bit deeper (I think he plays CM for the national team), so it makes sense that he goes slightly beyond that.

It's also worth noting that Bruno plays far more passes than De Bruyne and Ødegaard. Bruno has taken far more set pieces too (which naturally skews the data). All in all, there is no major difference between Bruno and his peers when it comes to pass completion. The key differences are:

1. Bruno plays far more passes
2. Bruno plays more long balls (although I think De Bruyne plays roughly the same amount)

Where did you find that information? According to fbref then de Bruyne makes on average 74 passes per 90 minutes, Bruno 60.49 passes per 90 and Ødegaard on 55.40 per 90, so curious how Bruno plays far more passes than both of them. Seems quite inaccurate to me.

 

[Scandi Red]

Where did you find that information? According to fbref then de Bruyne makes on average 74 passes per 90 minutes, Bruno 60.49 passes per 90 and Ødegaard on 55.40 per 90, so curious how Bruno plays far more passes than both of them. Seems quite inaccurate to me.

I looked at last season's stats for that too (bigger data set).

Number of passes per game:

Bruno: 54.6
Ødegaard: 54.3
De Bruyne: 44.7
Palmer: 39.5

So not far ahead of Ødegaard yeah. But if it's based on successful passes (which I suspect it is), then Bruno has more involvements/pass attempts than Ødegaard.

 

[Borys]

Because he's out only really creative player that physically is up to it. Mount isn't fit often enough to be deemed an option at the moment and Eriksen gets ran over every time he plays a top side. Build up seems to be a bit of a buzz word, but if a team sits in, you end up just having to cross it in or play eye of needle stuff (see City vs Arsenal 2nd half).

If we had someone similarly creative, with better ball retention and physically robust enough, I'm sure they'd push Bruno out the side. Keeping the ball more doesn't magically create more chances for us. It's probably somewhere we need to invest in, but even someone like Eze gives the ball away just as much as Bruno. I think finding this creator who also doesn't give the ball away very often is a bit of a unicorn. That's not to suggest Bruno should be better, but I'm just rallying against the idea it's impossible to build a top side with him in it.

But in our last 3 games (and accidentally good performances) we've created plenty chances and Bruno was a minor figure. That's why we're having this whole discussion.

If we're keeping him for his "physical" attributes surely we're better off with Mount?

 

[McLvnsMuse]

What magical moments?

FA cup final, the odd scattering of goals in big games (Liverpool, city etc), purple patches.

 

[Lash]

But in our last 3 games (and accidentally good performances) we've created plenty chances and Bruno was a minor figure. That's why we're having this whole discussion.

If we're keeping him for his "physical" attributes surely we're better off with Mount?

He's not been a minor figure though? He's created still, just last game he wasnt good and the other game was Barnsley.

I said in the very next sentence to the one you bolded why I wouldn't consider him an option at the moment. Also the drop off in creativity with Mount isn't a good enough of a trade off, for me personally. They've got to have a mixture and balance of attributes. What you gain in mobility and physicality from Mount does not offset the drop off in goal threat and creativity. Switch the attributes around for Eriksen and it's the same.

 

[Olecurls99]

I'll put this here too.

Eriksen PL assists 76
Bruno PL assists 42

But the notion of playing 32 year old Eriksen ahead of 30 year old Bruno is considered ridiculous. Why?

 

[Scandi Red]

I'll put this here too.

Eriksen PL assists 76
Bruno PL assists 42

But the notion of playing 32 year old Eriksen ahead of 30 year old Bruno is considered ridiculous. Why?

1. Because Eriksen has had 135 more appearances than Bruno to reach that number.
2. They still have the same number of goals though.
3. Eriksen's legs are clearly not capable of playing week in week out in the PL anymore.

Those 2 years make a difference. Neither Bruno nor Eriksen are explosive players, but the former is a fitness freak of nature on top of this. I would not be surprised if Bruno at age 35 looks sharper than Eriksen at age 32. That is not a critique of Eriksen, but rather a testament to a player who practically never rests or get injured. And he still works like a madman off the ball.

 

[Grand Vizier]

He's not been a minor figure though? He's created still, just last game he wasnt good and the other game was Barnsley.

I said in the very next sentence to the one you bolded why I wouldn't consider him an option at the moment. Also the drop off in creativity with Mount isn't a good enough of a trade off, for me personally. They've got to have a mixture and balance of attributes. What you gain in mobility and physicality from Mount does not offset the drop off in goal threat and creativity. Switch the attributes around for Eriksen and it's the same.

That's how it would be in simple theory, but that's not how a football game is played in practice. Mount would not give the ball away 34 times in the game, and instead he'd keep hold of possession instead of mindlessly giving it away. A simple pass out wide to the wingers could end up in a chance instead of loss of possession, thus potentially making us more creative as a team. It's not just about replacing a player that creates more chances individually. If we're going to go by that, then Musiala or Wirtz would be a massive downgrade, but that is not the case.

This is no certainty, of course, but it is telling that we have created 16 big chances this season alone, and Bruno only has created 2 of these, so we are not overly reliant on him any longer. We should definitely try a different approach, because he has been awful this season.

 

[Olecurls99]

1. Because Eriksen has had 135 more appearances than Bruno to reach that number.
2. They still have the same number of goals though.
3. Eriksen's legs are clearly not capable of playing week in week out in the PL anymore.

Those 2 years make a difference. Neither Bruno nor Eriksen are explosive players, but the former is a fitness freak of nature on top of this. I would not be surprised if Bruno at age 35 looks sharper than Eriksen at age 32. That is not a critique of Eriksen, but rather a testament to a player who practically never rests or get injured. And he still works like a madman off the ball.

Ok then.

Eriksen has more assists per minute in the Premier League and that's despite playing behind Bruno for Man United.

He was never an athletic player and doesn't need to be because his technique is so good.

 

[Olecurls99]

2. They still have the same number of goals though.

19 of Bruno's 54 premier league goals were penalties. None of Eriksen's were.

He's just a better player.

 

[Borys]

He's not been a minor figure though? He's created still, just last game he wasnt good and the other game was Barnsley.

I said in the very next sentence to the one you bolded why I wouldn't consider him an option at the moment. Also the drop off in creativity with Mount isn't a good enough of a trade off, for me personally. They've got to have a mixture and balance of attributes. What you gain in mobility and physicality from Mount does not offset the drop off in goal threat and creativity. Switch the attributes around for Eriksen and it's the same.

If I recall correctly he generated xG of 0,3 in the Southampton game (team total was around 2,5). In the cup game he entered when we were 5 goals up, last game I don't recall him doing anything positive. So yes, he was a minor figure in the last 3 games (compared to Eriksen, Garnacho, Amad and Zirkzee impact), which by total accident happened to be decent to very good performances. Why is that so hard to admit? He's in bad form and we should be looking to give him a physical / mental rest. Once he finds his groove again he'll earn his place in the team. Or maybe the team moves towards more controlled style of play in which Bruno is carried, and not carries the team on his back.

Again, the thing with Mount is he was never put in Bruno role of player that is told to take risks, so we can't really compare this aspect of their game. I think he's a good player, and although I do think Bruno is more creative, Mount floor level/basics is just much higher than Bruno's and in theory he seems to be a better option if we're playing less direct football. And as pointed out above, it's not like Bruno is still the central figure in how we play. Far from it - even if that's temporary, a manager would be a fool not to that chance to experiment.

 

[Lash]

That's how it would be in simple theory, but that's not how a football game is played in practice. Mount would not give the ball away 34 times in the game, and instead he'd keep hold of possession instead of mindlessly giving it away. A simple pass out wide to the wingers could end up in a chance instead of loss of possession, thus potentially making us more creative as a team. It's not just about replacing a player that creates more chances individually. If we're going to go by that, then Musiala or Wirtz would be a massive downgrade, but that is not the case.

This is no certainty, of course, but it is telling that we have created 16 big chances this season alone, and Bruno only has created 2 of these, so we are not overly reliant on him any longer. We should definitely try a different approach, because he has been awful this season.

I said this a few posts ago, but just keeping possession doesn't equal creativity. Where were you for the van Gaal era? Our wingers hardly create much as well, bar Amad. Wirtz absolutely smashed Bruno out the park with his passing stats and Musiala is a better carrying of the ball, so not sure why you'd think I'd see them as a downgrade.

If we're creating chances and not putting them away, I'm not sure why Bruno is the issue? It was raised by lots of people before the start of the season, we seriously lack goals.

 

[Guapa]

No disrespect intended, loved him when he was producing but we need to replace him if we want to step up.He's the captain, the string puller but his sloppiness sets a low bar for the rest of the squad which is unacceptable.Tough call to make but needs to be done sooner than later.

 

[Lash]

If I recall correctly he generated xG of 0,3 in the Southampton game (team total was around 2,5). In the cup game he entered when we were 5 goals up, last game I don't recall him doing anything positive. So yes, he was a minor figure in the last 3 games (compared to Eriksen, Garnacho, Amad and Zirkzee impact), which by total accident happened to be decent to very good performances. Why is that so hard to admit? He's in bad form and we should be looking to give him a physical / mental rest. Once he finds his groove again he'll earn his place in the team. Or maybe the team moves towards more controlled style of play in which Bruno is carried, and not carries the team on his back.

Again, the thing with Mount is he was never put in Bruno role of player that is told to take risks, so we can't really compare this aspect of their game. I think he's a good player, and although I do think Bruno is more creative, Mount floor level/basics is just much higher than Bruno's and in theory he seems to be a better option if we're playing less direct football. And as pointed out above, it's not like Bruno is still the central figure in how we play. Far from it - even if that's temporary, a manager would be a fool not to that chance to experiment.

Can't say I know of the top of my head, but obviously he played the cross for De Ligt - not sure if he was anything to do with his other chances. Bar Eriksen, they weren't good enough vs Palace, Bruno was just particularly frustrating that day. Everyone missed gilt edge chances. I don't have a problem rotating Bruno, I'm just not sure the options are particularly inspiring.

Yeah, I don't disagree with the Mount assessment, but he's just got to show he can stay fit. It's clear Ten Hag likes him, as when he is fully fit he starts him (that feels as though its been about 5 games, mind you).

 

[Grand Vizier]

I said this a few posts ago, but just keeping possession doesn't equal creativity. Where were you for the van Gaal era? Our wingers hardly create much as well, bar Amad. Wirtz absolutely smashed Bruno out the park with his passing stats and Musiala is a better carrying of the ball, so not sure why you'd think I'd see them as a downgrade.

If we're creating chances and not putting them away, I'm not sure why Bruno is the issue? It was raised by lots of people before the start of the season, we seriously lack goals.

I never said just keeping possession doesn't equal creativity by default, but possession teams do tend to create more chances than teams who rely on moments by individuals. I think you missed the part where I said we have created 16 big chances this season, and only two of those come from Bruno. That is the third most big chances in the league of all the teams.
We are not struggling creatively without Bruno, we are struggling with finishing, balance and giving away possession easily so we spend a huge part of the game trying to win the ball back. Why would we not try to fix that when the creativity is in place? Mount could be a better solution for that aim. Having a better balance in the team when we are creating a bunch of chances will likely make us even more creative, because we would have the ball more. This isn't LvG's team.

Wirtz is a better passer than Bruno, but that's not what we were discussing. We were talking about creativity and Wirtz doesn't create half the amount of Bruno's chances. Same applies for Musiala, he is undoubtedly a much better ball carrier, but you were arguing for creativity in the team. By using these arguments for these players, you are kind of proving my point that you don't need to be as creative as long as you can offer other qualities. Mount is also a better ball carrier than Bruno and is excellent at receiving on the half turn that can potentially open up a lot of space.
He is an issue because of his general performances, not because the players aren't finishing chances. And it is not like the chances came from him either, so if he can't do what his biggest strength is, what is the point of playing him? It has to be said, that he is also at fault for poor finishing, as we could see against Fulham and Palace with the outside of his foot. He has regressed hard in terms of finishing, and he doesn't score enough goals for a number 10.

 

[Olecurls99]

I never said just keeping possession doesn't equal creativity by default, but possession teams do tend to create more chances than teams who rely on moments by individuals. I think you missed the part where I said we have created 16 big chances this season, and only two of those come from Bruno. That is the third most big chances in the league of all the teams.
We are not struggling creatively without Bruno, we are struggling with finishing, balance and giving away possession easily so we spend a huge part of the game trying to win the ball back. Why would we not try to fix that when the creativity is in place? Mount could be a better solution for that aim. Having a better balance in the team when we are creating a bunch of chances will likely make us even more creative, because we would have the ball more. This isn't LvG's team.

Wirtz is a better passer than Bruno, but that's not what we were discussing. We were talking about creativity and Wirtz doesn't create half the amount of Bruno's chances. Same applies for Musiala, he is undoubtedly a much better ball carrier, but you were arguing for creativity in the team. By using these arguments for these players, you are kind of proving my point that you don't need to be as creative as long as you can offer other qualities. Mount is also a better ball carrier than Bruno and is excellent at receiving on the half turn that can potentially open up a lot of space.
He is an issue because of his general performances, not because the players aren't finishing chances. And it is not like the chances came from him either, so if he can't do what his biggest strength is, what is the point of playing him? It has to be said, that he is also at fault for poor finishing, as we could see against Fulham and Palace with the outside of his foot. He has regressed hard in terms of finishing, and he doesn't score enough goals for a number 10.

Excellent points. Musiala would be a big upgrade on Bruno imho.

 

[Lash]

I never said just keeping possession doesn't equal creativity by default, but possession teams do tend to create more chances than teams who rely on moments by individuals. I think you missed the part where I said we have created 16 big chances this season, and only two of those come from Bruno. That is the third most big chances in the league of all the teams.
We are not struggling creatively without Bruno, we are struggling with finishing, balance and giving away possession easily so we spend a huge part of the game trying to win the ball back. Why would we not try to fix that when the creativity is in place? Mount could be a better solution for that aim. Having a better balance in the team when we are creating a bunch of chances will likely make us even more creative, because we would have the ball more. This isn't LvG's team.

Wirtz is a better passer than Bruno, but that's not what we were discussing. We were talking about creativity and Wirtz doesn't create half the amount of Bruno's chances. Same applies for Musiala, he is undoubtedly a much better ball carrier, but you were arguing for creativity in the team. By using these arguments for these players, you are kind of proving my point that you don't need to be as creative as long as you can offer other qualities. Mount is also a better ball carrier than Bruno and is excellent at receiving on the half turn that can potentially open up a lot of space.
He is an issue because of his general performances, not because the players aren't finishing chances. And it is not like the chances came from him either, so if he can't do what his biggest strength is, what is the point of playing him? It has to be said, that he is also at fault for poor finishing, as we could see against Fulham and Palace with the outside of his foot. He has regressed hard in terms of finishing, and he doesn't score enough goals for a number 10.

I think you're overplaying the possession narrative, we still had 67% against Palace and having someone who is creative isn't relying on moments. I didn't miss that part, I said, I don't see the problem with Bruno if we're creating chances with him in the team. The issue is finishing, why would removing Bruno do anything for that? Do we spend a huge part of the game winning the ball back? I'm not really seeing any evidence to suggest that against Palace in the stats. I think you're trying to solve a problem that isn't really the issue to us winning football matches.

Well, yeah, as I said it's about the right mixture and balance of attributes. Pretty sure Wirtz has more shot creating actions than Bruno, so I'm not really sure where you're getting the idea he's half as creative. Creativity is also carrying the ball past people and opening up defences by dribbling, I think your definition of creativity seems very narrow.

You can lay those arguments at everyone's doorstep in our team in attack, he actually has credit in the bank though. The point of playing him is he has historically been our best performer and generally can be relied upon. Sure he's not in top form, but neither is anyone that would replace him. I like Mount, but let's not pretend he's shown anything in a United shirt that suggests he's a better option than Bruno.

I personally think if we're creating chances with him in the side and he is still getting in positions to finish and creating chances - and he is, then this supposed negative impact he's having on the team is massively overblown.

 

[Matt851]

I think you're overplaying the possession narrative, we still had 67% against Palace and having someone who is creative isn't relying on moments. I didn't miss that part, I said, I don't see the problem with Bruno if we're creating chances with him in the team. The issue is finishing, why would removing Bruno do anything for that? Do we spend a huge part of the game winning the ball back? I'm not really seeing any evidence to suggest that against Palace in the stats. I think you're trying to solve a problem that isn't really the issue to us winning football matches.

Well, yeah, as I said it's about the right mixture and balance of attributes. Pretty sure Wirtz has more shot creating actions than Bruno, so I'm not really sure where you're getting the idea he's half as creative. Creativity is also carrying the ball past people and opening up defences by dribbling, I think your definition of creativity seems very narrow.

You can lay those arguments at everyone's doorstep in our team in attack, he actually has credit in the bank though. The point of playing him is he has historically been our best performer and generally can be relied upon. Sure he's not in top form, but neither is anyone that would replace him. I like Mount, but let's not pretend he's shown anything in a United shirt that suggests he's a better option than Bruno.

I personally think if we're creating chances with him in the side and he is still getting in positions to finish and creating chances - and he is, then this supposed negative impact he's having on the team is massively overblown.

Well if we hadnt spaffed the ball away so much we may have created chances in the second half and won the game.

Has finishing isn't great these days as well

 

[Borys]

That's how it would be in simple theory, but that's not how a football game is played in practice. Mount would not give the ball away 34 times in the game, and instead he'd keep hold of possession instead of mindlessly giving it away. A simple pass out wide to the wingers could end up in a chance instead of loss of possession, thus potentially making us more creative as a team. It's not just about replacing a player that creates more chances individually. If we're going to go by that, then Musiala or Wirtz would be a massive downgrade, but that is not the case.

This is no certainty, of course, but it is telling that we have created 16 big chances this season alone, and Bruno only has created 2 of these, so we are not overly reliant on him any longer. We should definitely try a different approach, because he has been awful this season.

That's an excellent post that puts across points I was trying to make - and in much more clear way. It doesn't matter who creates the chances, in fact it's better if chances are generated by different players across the team rather than one high volume / high risk player like Bruno. And that's the case this season.

Regarding Mount, surely people noticed that the way we move the ball in more controlled way results in less turnovers / basketball games this season? Somehow Eriksen and Mainoo two man midfield is not a problem even away from home. For sure there will be more difficult games, but that's exactly why we're discussing Bruno here.

As you mentioned in the last paragraph, the "creativity" card hold little power now. The last line of defense seems to be "XYZ might not be better", but that logic makes no sense, because the important part is we've arrived at a point we CAN actually experiment.

 

[Olecurls99]

I think you're overplaying the possession narrative, we still had 67% against Palace and having someone who is creative isn't relying on moments. I didn't miss that part, I said, I don't see the problem with Bruno if we're creating chances with him in the team. The issue is finishing, why would removing Bruno do anything for that? Do we spend a huge part of the game winning the ball back? I'm not really seeing any evidence to suggest that against Palace in the stats. I think you're trying to solve a problem that isn't really the issue to us winning football matches.

Well, yeah, as I said it's about the right mixture and balance of attributes. Pretty sure Wirtz has more shot creating actions than Bruno, so I'm not really sure where you're getting the idea he's half as creative. Creativity is also carrying the ball past people and opening up defences by dribbling, I think your definition of creativity seems very narrow.

You can lay those arguments at everyone's doorstep in our team in attack, he actually has credit in the bank though. The point of playing him is he has historically been our best performer and generally can be relied upon. Sure he's not in top form, but neither is anyone that would replace him. I like Mount, but let's not pretend he's shown anything in a United shirt that suggests he's a better option than Bruno.

I personally think if we're creating chances with him in the side and he is still getting in positions to finish and creating chances - and he is, then this supposed negative impact he's having on the team is massively overblown.

The fact that we're creating 16 chances with Bruno in the team and he's only involved in 2 of them shows that we can create chances without him in the team. It's really quite obvious.

And seeing as though that's his main thing it shows that we can move on without him.

And seeing as though he's missing lots of these chances it might help by replacing him with a better finisher.

And seeing as though he keeps losing the ball (34 times) and breaking down our attacks it stands to reason that his removal would increase our chance creation.

 

[DWelbz19]

The fact that we're creating 16 chances with Bruno in the team and he's only involved in 2 of them shows that we can create chances without him in the team. It's really quite obvious.

He’s on a clear decline — even his chance creation gimmick for has massively dropped. I’m pretty sure Amad is quite comfortably ahead on the chance creation front and he’s played fewer minutes.

Edit:

1. Amad Diallo - 12 chances created (337 minutes)
2. Diogo Dalot - 6 chances created (450 minutes)
3. Bruno Fernandes - 6 chances created (437 minutes)
4. Christian Eriksen - 5 chances created (153 minutes)
5. Joshua Zirkzee - 5 chances created (311 minutes)
6. Alejandro Garnacho - 5 chances created (230 minutes)

This narrative that we won’t be able to create without Bruno Fernandes punting it about in the middle of the field is misguided. We a few actual technical players in the side now.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Because he's out only really creative player that physically is up to it. Mount isn't fit often enough to be deemed an option at the moment and Eriksen gets ran over every time he plays a top side. Build up seems to be a bit of a buzz word, but if a team sits in, you end up just having to cross it in or play eye of needle stuff (see City vs Arsenal 2nd half).

If we had someone similarly creative, with better ball retention and physically robust enough, I'm sure they'd push Bruno out the side. Keeping the ball more doesn't magically create more chances for us. It's probably somewhere we need to invest in, but even someone like Eze gives the ball away just as much as Bruno. I think finding this creator who also doesn't give the ball away very often is a bit of a unicorn. That's not to suggest Bruno should be better, but I'm just rallying against the idea it's impossible to build a top side with him in it.

It’s not merely about creation vs giving the ball away. While Bruno does create a lot (and has a great engine) whilst being erratic with turnovers (which hurts our ability to control games) he also lacks quick feet, ability in tight spaces, pace and strength. Hence it makes him an extremely skewed footballer who is very good at one or two aspects at the expense of others.

On the top team part - Bruno has never managed to be part of a top side and his 20s are done so I’d say that the burden of proof is on him. I don’t believe he’ll ever win more than some cups.

Finally, I think the way forward is pretty clear. We have to plan to move on from him while making use of him now as a valuable asset. 2 years from now his replacement should ideally be developed and ready to shine.

 

[Borys]

I think you're overplaying the possession narrative, we still had 67% against Palace and having someone who is creative isn't relying on moments. I didn't miss that part, I said, I don't see the problem with Bruno if we're creating chances with him in the team. The issue is finishing, why would removing Bruno do anything for that? Do we spend a huge part of the game winning the ball back? I'm not really seeing any evidence to suggest that against Palace in the stats. I think you're trying to solve a problem that isn't really the issue to us winning football matches.

Well, yeah, as I said it's about the right mixture and balance of attributes. Pretty sure Wirtz has more shot creating actions than Bruno, so I'm not really sure where you're getting the idea he's half as creative. Creativity is also carrying the ball past people and opening up defences by dribbling, I think your definition of creativity seems very narrow.

You can lay those arguments at everyone's doorstep in our team in attack, he actually has credit in the bank though. The point of playing him is he has historically been our best performer and generally can be relied upon. Sure he's not in top form, but neither is anyone that would replace him. I like Mount, but let's not pretend he's shown anything in a United shirt that suggests he's a better option than Bruno.

I personally think if we're creating chances with him in the side and he is still getting in positions to finish and creating chances - and he is, then this supposed negative impact he's having on the team is massively overblown.

We were also creating chances with Antony in the squad, and he was getting at the end of chances as well. I'm not comparing Bruno to Antony, but you see the logic here. It seems like you really don't see a reason to drop Bruno, while everybody else arguing you don't actually see a reason to keep playing him. The problem with Bruno is he's very often detrimental to our play (if you exclude the creativity part, which we've discussed a lot already). THAT is the problem.

 

[Borys]

He’s on a clear decline — even his chance creation gimmick for has massively dropped. I’m pretty sure Amad is quite comfortably ahead on the chance creation front and he’s played fewer minutes.

Edit:

1. Amad Diallo - 12 chances created (337 minutes)
2. Diogo Dalot - 6 chances created (450 minutes)
3. Bruno Fernandes - 6 chances created (437 minutes)
4. Christian Eriksen - 5 chances created (153 minutes)
5. Joshua Zirkzee - 5 chances created (311 minutes)
6. Alejandro Garnacho - 5 chances created (230 minutes)

This narrative that we won’t be able to create without Bruno Fernandes punting it about in the middle of the field is misguided. We a few actual technical players in the side now.

This is quite damming but exactly the information we should consider when looking forward. And bare in mind Bruno is put in a free role to create and that sole aspect of the game justifies his presence on the pitch.

 

[Ayoba]

My captain shall never be benched.

 

[Scandi Red]

Football fans are all about the short term (when it suits them).

"Chance creation gimmick".... "CLEAR decline"

 

[Olecurls99]

Football fans are all about the short term (when it suits them).

"Chance creation gimmick".... "CLEAR decline"

No, the whole reason we had to keep him in the team has been replaced and his weaknesses have become more glaring in a possession team.

 

[MUrphFC]

Haaland has a goalscoring gimmick.

 

[DWelbz19]

Football fans are all about the short term (when it suits them).

"Chance creation gimmick".... "CLEAR decline"

Fernandes fans are all about the stats (when it suits them).

I called it a gimmick because these are the same stats that would be used as an uno reverse card, shoved in our face when salient points are raised to criticise the player.

Inability to play under pressure? Chances created. Low passing accuracy and constant turnovers? Chances created, mate. Goal threat dissipated despite still having a large amount of shots per game? Chances created.

 

[Grand Vizier]

I think you're overplaying the possession narrative, we still had 67% against Palace and having someone who is creative isn't relying on moments. I didn't miss that part, I said, I don't see the problem with Bruno if we're creating chances with him in the team. The issue is finishing, why would removing Bruno do anything for that? Do we spend a huge part of the game winning the ball back? I'm not really seeing any evidence to suggest that against Palace in the stats. I think you're trying to solve a problem that isn't really the issue to us winning football matches.

Well, yeah, as I said it's about the right mixture and balance of attributes. Pretty sure Wirtz has more shot creating actions than Bruno, so I'm not really sure where you're getting the idea he's half as creative. Creativity is also carrying the ball past people and opening up defences by dribbling, I think your definition of creativity seems very narrow.

You can lay those arguments at everyone's doorstep in our team in attack, he actually has credit in the bank though. The point of playing him is he has historically been our best performer and generally can be relied upon. Sure he's not in top form, but neither is anyone that would replace him. I like Mount, but let's not pretend he's shown anything in a United shirt that suggests he's a better option than Bruno.

I personally think if we're creating chances with him in the side and he is still getting in positions to finish and creating chances - and he is, then this supposed negative impact he's having on the team is massively overblown.

That was against a very poor Crystal Palace. Better teams will not let us dominate them as easily as they did, as we have already seen this season. You're right, having someone creative isn't relying on moments, but Bruno is a moments player. I don't think that's a secret. He can be fairly invisible throughout a match and then score a match winning goal or have an assist, but that is most definitely not enough for a title aspiring team. And this is coming from a long time admirer of Bruno, I just think he is going through a decline now and to me it is clear as day he isn't the same player as he used to be.
We spent a huge amount of time trying to win the ball back in a lot of games, it didn't happen against Palace for various reasons, but you probably remember Brighton in the second half. We need to start controlling the match, especially when it doesn't come at the cost of creativity.

Funny you said my definition of creativity is narrow, when the point I was trying to make was that your definition of it was narrow. I thought you were one of the posters that seems to think that chances created equals creativity. Mount is more creative than he gets credit for, it just doesn't show up on the statistics. His ability to receive on the half turn is the best in the team bar maybe Mainoo, and he is very intelligent with his passing and movement. He knows when to hold on to the ball and when to release it. That is not to say that he would be responsible for creating chances, but we could potentially be better in other areas of the game that would make the team as a whole more creative.

We are also creating chances without him, and playing him as our 10 comes at the cost of weakening us in crucial parts of the game. So, if we're able to attack efficiently without him, why do we absolutely need him? Like you said, a problem we have is finishing, so maybe drop Zirkzee in the 10 and Højlund as our striker? I'm not saying it will definitely work, but it is worth trying because right now, the goals aren't there.

 

[DWelbz19]

No, the whole reason we had to keep him in the team has been replaced and his weaknesses have become more glaring in a possession team.

I think we will revert to type against bigger and better teams. The removal of Casemiro, re-introduction of Eriksen, the inclusions of Zirkzee, De Ligt and Mazraoui make us a lot more stable on the ball, but I still think teams with superior midfield balances will continue the trend to out possess us.

In general though, the more we do move toward playing possession based football, the more he will stick out in certain phases and attacks in half spaces etc.

 

[Robbie Boy]

That's how it would be in simple theory, but that's not how a football game is played in practice. Mount would not give the ball away 34 times in the game, and instead he'd keep hold of possession instead of mindlessly giving it away. A simple pass out wide to the wingers could end up in a chance instead of loss of possession, thus potentially making us more creative as a team. It's not just about replacing a player that creates more chances individually. If we're going to go by that, then Musiala or Wirtz would be a massive downgrade, but that is not the case.

This is no certainty, of course, but it is telling that we have created 16 big chances this season alone, and Bruno only has created 2 of these, so we are not overly reliant on him any longer. We should definitely try a different approach, because he has been awful this season.

Spot on.

 

[Scandi Red]

Fernandes fans are all about the stats (when it suits them).

"When it suits them" = using nearly 5 years worth of data. He's one of most productive and creative AMs in Europe in this period, but whatever those are just gimmicks..

Meanwhile, you lot declare his decline before October. That is perfectly reasonable...

Inability to play under pressure?
Low passing accuracy and constant turnovers?
Goal threat dissipated despite still having a large amount of shots per game?

False.
False.
True under Ten Hag. Not true under Ole or when playing for Portugal.

 

[Olecurls99]

I think we will revert to type against bigger and better teams. The removal of Casemiro, re-introduction of Eriksen, the inclusions of Zirkzee, De Ligt and Mazraoui make us a lot more stable on the ball, but I still think teams with superior midfield balances will continue the trend to out possess us.

In general though, the more we do move toward playing possession based football, the more he will stick out in certain phases and attacks in half spaces etc.

I think a midfield of Ugarte, Mainoo and Eriksen would be very competitive even against the top teams. Just imagine Eriksen playing that pass that Casemiro tried against Liverpool. It just wouldn't happen.
We would be great in possession and Mainoo and Ugarte would have the legs to stop us being overrun.

I think the Mazraoui addition is a huge help in keeping the ball against the top teams. Full backs are just as important in the possession battle.

Spurs managed it when Eriksen was there and they got to a CL final. He wasn't some midfield dynamo back then like some on here must imagine.

Tottenham would be a good test for the trio. We'll see I guess.

 

[gajender]

I think a midfield of Ugarte, Mainoo and Eriksen would be very competitive even against the top teams. Just imagine Eriksen playing that pass that Casemiro tried against Liverpool. It just wouldn't happen.
We would be great in possession and Mainoo and Ugarte would have the legs to stop us being overrun.

I think the Mazraoui addition is a huge help in keeping the ball against the top teams. Full backs are just as important in the possession battle.

Spurs managed it when Eriksen was there and they got to a CL final. He wasn't some midfield dynamo back then like some on here must imagine.

Tottenham would be a good test for the trio. We'll see I guess.

Spurs are Mediocre and if we can't dominate them at Home then I believe Ten Hag not gonna last much longer .

But I am fairly confident things are about to come together for United and Spurs might be in for hiding .

 

[Grand Vizier]

"When it suits them" = using nearly 5 years worth of data. He's one of most productive and creative AMs in Europe in this period, but whatever those are just gimmicks..

Meanwhile, you lot declare his decline before October. That is perfectly reasonable...

I think there is a point to be made here. I don't think anyone is saying he is done at the top level when they say he is in decline. I think what they mean - or what I mean - is that he is a worse player now than he was, and that is not a slight on him, because it is perfectly natural due to his age and the amount of football he has played. Attacking midfielders also have a tendency to drop a level around the age of 30. If just one of their qualities regress, they lose a lot of their impact. Eriksen, Özil, Kaka, Coutinho, Mata, David Silva all regressed around the same age. While some of these players were still brilliant, they had dropped a level and was no longer as important.

I think, for an attacking midfielder, he doesn't score enough goals. He used to be much more clinical. I don't think he was very productive last season either and only picked up great form the last three months, and he has had a very poor start to this season, so I think it is fair to say he is in decline. It happens, he can't be at his peak forever.

 

[M16Red]

I've never quite seen anything like an attempt to discredit a player with a video in which the said player starts a move in his own half, makes a run up field and then produces the perfect cross for an easy finish before, so i'll give him credit there.

Life must be really miserable for that poor lads missus.

Just read this... 100%

She is way too happy all the time anyway, 17 years shes been with me... i do wonder if she is micro dosing or something.