Even if you consider other facets like distance covered, tackles, duels won too.
From what I hear, Arsenal this season is playing differently to the season before, going more for stability and physicality. This probably effects the individual numbers of players as well. But be it as it may, maybe Bruno has better numbers than Odegard, not a hill to die on for me. Don't forget, I am not disregarding Brunos qualities alltogether, I just think, they are, to a degree, overstated in here, which leads to his weaknesses becoming some sort of a red flag whenever brought up. And while every player has weaknesses, some of Brunos are at display on a regular basis (same with his strengths of course) but given the way we play, those weaknesses also have effects on the team. You'll buy the bad with the good, no question but you have to monitor the calculation on a regular basis to not end up with a net negative.
Szobo has Diaz, Salah, Gakpo around him. I'd shudder to think of the damage Bruno would do to teams if he was servicing these types of players but even then with the club in near relegation form Bruno's actual output is still comparable.
Palmer is effectively a 10 at all times and he's also got more quality around him, whilst Bruno has been a deeper position for us this season.
When Bruno had more inform players around him you can see what he was capable of - he's done it for us before. I think Palmer has been incredible for Chelsea but Bruno with actual attackers to service would be in the same bracket.
Well, I see your point, but as I said multiple times, being plausible isn't the same as prove or evidence or whatever. Bruno, as any other player, would obviously benefit from playing with better players but we simply can't know the extent. My point of view is, that Bruno "took" more or less 99% of Manchester United chance creation on him, not because he doesn't want to share of course, but at the end of the day, there are no other players who do something along those lines. And this is the story of United, while Bruno posts very good individual numbers, the productivity of United is dwindling more and more. And the reason isn't only "bad team mates". it is also the way we play. And the way we play is directly connected to Bruno, for better and for worse.
It's not the case that Bruno is just better than his peers, he's actually better than most midfielders in his position in the Premier League.
No issue with that statement.
He's ridiculously effective and almost equally frustrating but a top quality player, rarely ever injured and an absolute workhorse. He's a gem.
We'd have to have a discussion how to define effective in this regard but I have no issue with this statement as well. I acknowledge what he brings to the team and I acknowledge, that he brings a lot of the much needed productivity. My point in here is the "frustrating" part, you mentioned. I wouldn't have such a hard time accepting the bad when it would come with as much good as some in here seem to see. I don't though. We don't align on the extent of this good and the level of frustration.
When it comes to pass accuracy, dispossession and unsuccessful touches it makes more sense to look at per 90 minutes rather than total. Why? Because you typically have between 50 and 100 (or more!) touches per game. But goals, assists and chance creation etc are much more rare and difficult, hence it is valid to look at the total.
So how does Bruno stack up when it comes to pass accuracy?
Ødegaard: 87.4%
De Bruyne: 83.6%
Palmer: 82:3%
Bruno 80.1%
A large chunk of Bruno's missed passes are from set pieces (although he's been good recently). There is practically nothing separating him from De Bruyne and Palmer in this respect. 2 or 3% hardly make a difference. That's like 1 or 2 passes per game (provided an equal amount of involvement).
Where do you get the info from for the bolded part? Because it sounds as if it is just plausible even though I am not aware of numbers on that being available. But you'd never make such statements without being able to back them up, right?
And then we have getting dispossessed + unsuccessful touches (the less the better of course):
Bruno: 2.1
De Bruyne: 2.2
Palmer: 2.8
Ødegaard: 2.9
So the so-called "dispossession machine" is actually better than his peers.
The numbers speak for themselves, you have a point here. I'd still be interested to know, how exactly that is counted. Because I regularly see him lose possession (it is football after all so this isn't even me looking for a stick to beat him) and I have difficulties to think that in average it should be only 2 times per game. Is there a chance, that his large amount of minutes played plays into it?
Of course: not every missed pass is equal, nor is every dispossession. Stats will never tell the full story. But they don't lie when it comes to frequency. And love it or hate it, Bruno is no worse than his peers.
Very correct for the bolded part.
Also to add - Put the others in the current Man Utd team and have them play next to Casemiro etc and then see what happens to their numbers.
Another case of sounds plausible but impossible to quantify. As said, Bruno is disadvantaged by the team but he is also benefitting from it as he has a level of backing, standing and freedom, some others on this list probably don't have.
That is true. Being a part of a better collective is a huge luxury when it comes to pretty much all stats, apart from number of passes (because you get to share the workload).
You could of course argue that when you are given more responsibility then more positive output is to be expected, but that theory has many flaws in this case:
1. Classic goalscorers and dribblers benefit the most from this "freedom". And Bruno is neither of those things.
Right now every player at Manchester United will look to Bruno to create something. I think, that is pretty much helping his platform to shine? And is he really playing too differently than in former years these days? I am not sure, he is still launching it long whenever he sees a chance. The biggest difference is that our attackers aren't as productive anymore and we have been a little more stable back then. So when he gets praised for his time back then (without taking the different personal into account), why should we take it into account now?
2. A creator will always be held back by the quality of his team mates. If you play a perfect pass and the striker fails to capitalise then it was all for nothing.
But isn't that why some of you always bring up key passes and "big chances created"?
3. It is easier for the opponent to read. United won the ball back? Quickly, find Bruno! Bruno already received the ball? Prepare for a long-ball or a through ball! He played a supporting pass instead? Mission accomplished! Now they have to build the attack methodically with Garnacho, Zirkzee and Højlund.
That applied to when he joined as well. It took maybe 3 or 4 month for him to be the recognized creator in the team.
All in all - I think the discussion about his productivity is just a side battle ground. He is undeniably productive, the debate is somewhere else: is his productivity worth his other traits or not? Everybody who considers his productivity as borderline otherworldly will say "yes, it is worth it". Everybody who sees him as productive but not worlds apart from similar players will come to a different conclusion.
Trent has since taken back the number slot after midweek games
https://www.statmuse.com/fc/ask/most-possession-lost-this-season-premier-league
Total minutes / turnovers = 5.3. Which suggest he had a better game than normal. Which he did
Thanks, I'll look into it. Mostly how they collect that data point.
Bruno can easily have 100% completion if he played it safe like many of our players. Look at Hojlund, he almost never misses the target with his shots, simply by not shooting unless he’s inches away.
Nobody expects 100% completion. The issue people have with him is that it seems that he loses the ball often in situation where he shouldn't lose it. You see the difference right?
When Bruno is almost the sole creative outlet and the only one (now that Licha is injured) who is trying to play a ball in behind, his passing completion stats will dip. All these stats are stupid and moronic without context.
So far so good.
There’s a reason he’s played every minute of every game under every manager since he’s arrived. This might sound a bit mean, you are not seeing something multiple managers who worked directly with him and have better metrics at their disposal than you don’t see.
If that answers all questions for you, thats fine. Just don't expect everybody else to be satisfied as well. There is another possible reason for why he plays every minute: because he is available and maintained a knack of productivity even during times of bad form. You'd have more of a point, if those managers had the chance to choose from viable options but they didn't. Thats not on Bruno of course, not at all, our bad recruitment is not his fault, but I struggle to it for sure isn't a stick to beat him with but it also isn't a factor that improves his performances just because. After all, the story of the last 10 years is also a story of failing managers, for multiple reasons.
Our team is starving for risk takers. He’s one of them, the other one is Garnacho although his risk taking presents differently. You might also hear it being referred to as “making something happen”
Agreed and it is a big problem. And, again, noone wants him to stop taking risks. But a) when he is employed in a CM position, risk assessment is a key attribute and needs to look differently than when he plays further forward and b) opponents figured out a long time ago that Bruno will look to launch it long quickly in 8 out of 10 times and are prepared for it. If he launches one to a single winger who broke the line but is then more or less isolated it is a pass recorded for Bruno but often a dead end for the receiver and therefor a lost ball.
Because our players know that, they will try to speed up to make up ground but when the ball is then conceded to the opposition we face another tricky situation given that we are out of position. Which is how most of our games look like, erratic back and forths. Nobody wants to restrict him to a zero but too often it feels as if there is absolutely no risk assessment happening at all. When he manages to do it (like in the Liverpool game) he'll get praised for it and rightly so. But thats not a typical Bruno performance unfortunately. As soon as he manages to achieve that, this thread will turn quiet quickly (at least on my part).
My capitano!!!