Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

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The worst thing about brexit is how we have accepted the complete disregard for the truth from our politicians.
 
Adisa said:
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Didn't the UK receive more than any country from the Marshall plan? And Britain 'helped to liberate' half of Europe for the same reason that Britain 'helped to liberate' Europe from Napoleon. It was unacceptable geopolitically for the Brits for one country to become a hegemon on European soil.

'We will remember'. You absolute prick.

I would be genuinely fuming if I was a European hearing some of the utter vitriol coming out of our politicians' mouths. Do we have equivalent from European politicians about us?
 
Adisa said:
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:D

There's Trumps everywhere now. Putin's done a great job.

Right out of Trumps playbook:
It was reported in early November 2017 that Kawczynski had been reprimanded in front of witnesses by Eleanor Laing, the Conservative MP and deputy speaker, for asking a young researcher employed by Laing to go on a date with a rich businessman contact of his who was "older than her father".[38] The incident in January 2013, according to Channel 4 News in November 2017, was preceded by an intermediary making the same approach several times. Laura Hughes, writing for The Daily Telegraph, reported that Kawczynski has been referred to the Conservative's new disciplinary committee. He has admitted to the incident, but rejects the accusation of inappropriate conduct
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MP tries to hoe out staffer and see's nothing inappropriate in it :lol:
 
Ducklegs said:
The problem is most people (be they ignorant right wing mouth breather, or cowardly left wing snowflake) think the withdrawl agreement is the permanent agreement with the EU, and not the interim framework we will be dealing with the EU under while we negotiate or decide our long term relationship with them.

The biggest problem, is that both sides of the argument are just as ignorant and stupid as the other, as they deal in absolutes and fear, both sides think we will be severing all ties with the EU, with one side thinking we will stride mightly into the future with the Union Jack flying on every corner, bent bananas and no more eastern Europeans, the other side thinks we will collapse into a mad max style apocalypse were everyone who cant prove they were born within spitting distance of the bow bells back 6 generations will be lined up and shot, no food on the shelves and their children dying in their arms because there is no medicine.

Neither side seem to grasp that countries dont work like that, they ignore every other country that has left a long term political union (like most of Europe, India, parts of Africa, the United States) and instead think that the UK will be some special exception in what actually happens.
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The flaw in your argument is that there is very little, if any, downside to staying in the EU whereas leaving will be an utter clusterfeck.
 
It's been one of the most depressing things about Brexit, the fact that we're now so cynical that people just accept that politicians are going to lie and be completely disingenuous as if that's part of what we expect of them. Brexiters talk about the 2016 referendum as some great display of democracy which must be adhered to or it threatens our democracy forever, when in reality the winning side just repeatedly lied and made false promises as well as breaking electoral laws yet somehow that's OK because they got more votes. Ignoring that the rest of his tweet is just disgraceful, even by the standards of a hard Brexit Tory MP.
 
Adisa said:

I can't remember my history well but weren't we the biggest recipients of the Marshall Plan?
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I think people might also remember that this scumbag ran off to an EU country to try and get them to block the will of our parlaiment.

And he's the one who previously made bullshit claims about lemons imports and resoundly got mocked for it.

Hopefully his constituents remember all this when they next come to vote.
 
Ducklegs said:
And millions of others who arent crying about the sky falling in or parading around like its VE day yes.

I mean I am genuinely sorry if i come over as flippant, but having survived around 8 (probably more) apocalypses predicted by various experts and governements, I am not attributing too much weight to this one.
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You really should be. Leaving will be, and already is, a disaster. If we leave without a deal doubly so.

Your lack of comprehension isn't really a good argument for not worrying I'm afraid.
 
africanspur said:
Few things here.

Why are so many things portrayed as both sides being equally wrong/ equally stupid etc? I don't agree with that at all.

I'm interested to know which countries have left a long term political union and which countries and political unions you're referring to there? Especially when you reference countries like India (partition, mass deaths, ethnic cleaning and mass migrations of people), USA (war against the British), parts of Africa (most of our countries only managed to usurp colonisation through mass uprisings/ civil war and then the majority of the continent fell into one party dictatorships, with the former colonial power often still controlling things from a distance) and Europe (what were the political unions in Europe? You mean pan European Empires?). If you're referencing some other events, I'd be genuinely interested to hear them.

Also out of interest, what are these various apocalypses the government and experts predicted and didn't come to fruition? You also must surely appreciate that at least part of the reason they didn't happen is through large scale contingency planning?
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Exactly this. I'm looking forward to the reply to this too.
 
africanspur said:
Few things here.

Why are so many things portrayed as both sides being equally wrong/ equally stupid etc? I don't agree with that at all.

I'm interested to know which countries have left a long term political union and which countries and political unions you're referring to there? Especially when you reference countries like India (partition, mass deaths, ethnic cleaning and mass migrations of people), USA (war against the British), parts of Africa (most of our countries only managed to usurp colonisation through mass uprisings/ civil war and then the majority of the continent fell into one party dictatorships, with the former colonial power often still controlling things from a distance) and Europe (what were the political unions in Europe? You mean pan European Empires?). If you're referencing some other events, I'd be genuinely interested to hear them.

Also out of interest, what are these various apocalypses the government and experts predicted and didn't come to fruition? You also must surely appreciate that at least part of the reason they didn't happen is through large scale contingency planning?
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Contingency plans and working towards avoiding a disaster is not the point at hand, the point at hand is people are saying disaster is inevitable regardless of what planning and work is done to mitigate it.

Do you see?

My examples were probably not the best, as none of those countries at the time were a G7 powerhouse from the civilised west, but if you have never heard of the Czech republic, Slovakia, Lativa, Montengro, Serbia, Georgia, Armenia, Moldova, Belarus, Ukraine, Boznia and Hertzegovina etc etc etc all either gaining independence from a larger political union or from a former occupation then......

Yeah.

The situation in the UK is a lot, lot different, its not breaking from a overbearing ruling political system, its not part of an empire, its not occupied, its separating from a consensual economic and partial political partnership which is a lot less dramatic.
 
Ducklegs said:
Contingency plans and working towards avoiding a disaster is not the point at hand, the point at hand is people are saying disaster is inevitable regardless of what planning and work is done to mitigate it.

Do you see?

My examples were probably not the best, as none of those countries at the time were a G7 powerhouse from the civilised west, but if you have never heard of the Czech republic, Slovakia, Lativa, Montengro, Serbia, Georgia, Armenia, Moldova, Belarus, Ukraine, Boznia and Hertzegovina etc etc etc all either gaining independence from a larger political union or from a former occupation then......

Yeah.

The situation in the UK is a lot, lot different, its not breaking from a overbearing ruling political system, its not part of an empire, its not occupied, its separating from a consensual economic and partial political partnership which is a lot less dramatic.
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Some serious amount of bloodshed in those countries mentioned, some right up to the present day, and quite a lot of civil conflict post-independence.
 
Adisa said:

I can't remember my history well but weren't we the biggest recipients of the Marshall Plan?
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This is the same guy who asked Poland to veto any attempt to get an extension

Is he trying too hard because of his surname? Presumably he’s off polish descent

Also I believe he’s up to his eyes in gold speculation, the price will spike in the event of a hard brexit
 
unchanged_lineup said:
Some serious amount of bloodshed in those countries mentioned, some right up to the present day.
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And the one in the middle that you didn't pick is interesting. Belarus is one of the worst example possible.
 
JPRouve said:
And the one in the middle that you didn't pick is interesting. Belarus is one of the worst example possible.
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Sorry, quickly googling to back up my basic knowledge of the region.

Closer to home, we in Ireland had a civil war after we "left" our "long term political union" with Britain. Again, doesn't quite fit his narrative.
 
Ducklegs said:
Contingency plans and working towards avoiding a disaster is not the point at hand, the point at hand is people are saying disaster is inevitable regardless of what planning and work is done to mitigate it.

Do you see?

My examples were probably not the best, as none of those countries at the time were a G7 powerhouse from the civilised west, but if you have never heard of the Czech republic, Slovakia, Lativa, Montengro, Serbia, Georgia, Armenia, Moldova, Belarus, Ukraine, Boznia and Hertzegovina etc etc etc all either gaining independence from a larger political union or from a former occupation then......

Yeah.

The situation in the UK is a lot, lot different, its not breaking from a overbearing ruling political system, its not part of an empire, its not occupied, its separating from a consensual economic and partial political partnership which is a lot less dramatic.
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That isn't what you said though. You said you had 'survived around 8 (probably more) apocalypses predicted by various experts and governements, I am not attributing too much weight to this one.'.

So I asked what these apocalypses were exactly and do you not think that these 'apocalypses' may have been, to some extent, but the accurate recognition of those potential disasters and adequate planning is what helped prevent them? If one of my surgical colleagues was to operate on you and tell you there was a 10% chance of death and you came out ok, would you feel the surgeon was simply catastrophising? Or that perhaps the surgeon had foreseen the potential consequences and done all of the relevant things they needed to, such as keeping sterile, doing constant checks during the operation, having a competent partner and going to medical school for 6 years and then training for a further 10 years before becoming a fully fledged surgeon?

I mean, I don't get what you're doing here, especially with the patronising tone. You've listed multiple countries that literally had years of strife following an exit from a union and then come in, with the exact same tone.

Firstly, 'leaving' the Soviet Union as the entire union collapses is wholly different from leaving a fully functioning union that you are inextricably linked to.

Even some of those countries you have listed

Aremnia: War with Azerbeijan, blockade by Azerbeijan and Turkey, economic difficulty,
Latvia: Initially occupied by Soviet forces and didn't provide citizenship to many of its non Latvian citizens. Decided to join the EU and NATO.
Montenegro: Civil war
Serbia: Civil war
Georgia: Coups, separatism, wars, ethnic cleansing and still currently Russian occupation of certain territories
Moldova (I'll be honest, I know nothing about Moldova)
Belarus: See Moldova. Don't they have Europe's last dictator as their president?
Ukraine: Country lost over half of its GDP in the 90s, has had rigged elections, uprising/ protests, territory annexed and swathes of the country enveloped in war vs separatists/ Russian agents.
B&H: Civil war

Czech Republic and Slovakia certainly doing well, though both have entered the EU and I think NATO (ie deciding it is probably better to be part of a union...)

So I guess it depends on what you class as leaving a political/ economic union well. I actually think long term, it may well be ok for the UK. I don't think it will become some kind of mad max But short term, especially in the event of no deal, it would be a disaster. And the examples you've decided to provide as examples where countries have left without much trouble (and instead have listed a bunch of countries that have mostly undergone civil war, partition, economic strife, occupation, ethnic cleansing etc. You've listed perhaps 2 countries that have come out of a union without much immediate issue (there may well be some African examples, I can't pretend to be an expert on all of African post colonial history). Doesn't exactly fill me with much hope.
 
Stanley Road said:
If Nissan is your only means of work, as was ship building, as was mining, then its not hard to see why the north eastern people are angry. Total neglect.
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I don’t usually say anything in this thread, but I feel like this warrants a response. How on earth is that the fault of the EU? Is it not the British Government’s responsibility to try and generate jobs for these people and not make them face “total neglect”? What does that have to do with the EU?
 
Adisa said:
The worst thing about brexit is how we have accepted the complete disregard for the truth from our politicians.
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I don't think that's on Brexit. It's just highlighted (with a massive flood light) what was there...
 
sun_tzu said:
Was having a chat with a couple of folks about no deal brexit... How prepared the business is etc...
Somebody pointed out about the blitz spirit and how we will be just fine whatever happened
Somebody else pointed out that the police had to go on the national news asking people not to dial 999 when KFC ran out of chicken for a few days.

If nandos or maccy-d's goes down I'm with the Kaiser chiefs... There's gonna be riots
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The problem is that most of these people don't realise how things end up in the shops.

The other question is why would anyone vote to exist on a basic existence - moreover almost none of these people lived through the "blitz". Moronic.
 
Nissan confirm the rumours.
Sky reporter saying people of Sunderland are defiant and think companies are using brexit as an excuse.
Nationalism is a cancer.
It further erodes the notion the UK can exist and its own separate customs entity. It's afacking fantasy.
 
Silva said:
Pound already at it's lowest in 30 years, markets taking a thrashing, calls for independence referendums in Scotland and Northern Ireland. Whispers that Brussels will look to make an example of us. Just how bad will the shit show get? Or is there light at the end of the tunnel?
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So 1000 pages in and this was the first post in the thread
Pound is lower
Indyrefs still bubbling away in the background and I'd guess may get more momentum based on the end deal (or no deal)
Basically not much has changed other than there is now a lot less time to sort things out
 
Adisa said:
Nissan confirm the rumours.
Sky reporter saying people of Sunderland are defiant and think companies are using brexit as an excuse.
Nationalism is a cancer.
It further erodes the notion the UK can exist and its own separate customs entity. It's afacking fantasy.
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I'm just waiting for the penny to drop for people like this.

When the reality sinks in, how will these people respond?
 
Ducklegs said:
The problem is most people (be they ignorant right wing mouth breather, or cowardly left wing snowflake) think the withdrawl agreement is the permanent agreement with the EU, and not the interim framework we will be dealing with the EU under while we negotiate or decide our long term relationship with them.

The biggest problem, is that both sides of the argument are just as ignorant and stupid as the other, as they deal in absolutes and fear, both sides think we will be severing all ties with the EU, with one side thinking we will stride mightly into the future with the Union Jack flying on every corner, bent bananas and no more eastern Europeans, the other side thinks we will collapse into a mad max style apocalypse were everyone who cant prove they were born within spitting distance of the bow bells back 6 generations will be lined up and shot, no food on the shelves and their children dying in their arms because there is no medicine.

Neither side seem to grasp that countries dont work like that, they ignore every other country that has left a long term political union (like most of Europe, India, parts of Africa, the United States) and instead think that the UK will be some special exception in what actually happens.
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Obviously the withdrawal agreement is the first step to real negotiations on the future relationship as has been said countless times.

The problem is that if the withrawal agreement is rejected which so far it has overwhelmingly been, there is no stepping stone to the next stage.

Thus the mad max/ armageddon scenario only starts the day after the UK step off the cliff without a withdrawal agreement. How bad it will be no-one can say for sure but without question it will mean serious disruption at the very least.
 
Aboutreika18 said:
I'm just waiting for the penny to drop for people like this.

When the reality sinks in, how will these people respond?
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I don't think the reality will ever sink in. These people will always find someone else to blame.
The people of Sunderland don't understand there is absolutely no advantage to Nissan manufacturing those cars inside the UK.
 
Adisa said:
I don't think the reality will ever sink in. These people will always find someone else to blame.
The people of Sunderland don't understand there is absolutely no advantage to Nissan manufacturing those cars inside the UK.
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Pop over to the Newcastle Chronicle facebook page and you'll see them creating all manner of justifications to explain how this is not due to Brexit but part of "Project Fear".

I used to spend a lot of time in that area and passed the factory all the time. I feel sorry for the folks working there but not much sympathy for these folks who can't see that it's related to Brexit.
 
On that Facebook page I mentioned someone posted this - I guess this could be an email sent to Nissan staff

Today the company is announcing that the next-generation X-Trail, planned for production in NMUK, will instead be made in Kyushu plant in Japan.
Our intention was to notify you in the coming week about this decision, but following leaks to the media this weekend we are issuing this information today.
I want everyone to understand the background to the decision. Much has changed since we announced Qashqai and X-Trail for NMUK in October 2016. At that time they were both planned as ‘traditional’ models, powered by internal combustion engines. X-Trail was already going to be made in Kyushu, but there was a good business case for bringing production to Europe as well.
Since that time, as you know, the environment for the car industry in Europe has changed dramatically. To meet the changing emissions regulations we’ve had to invest much more in new powertrains for our future models like X-Trail. At the same time, the volume forecasts for X-Trail in Europe have reduced.
For those reasons the company has decided to optimize our investments and concentrate production in Kyushu, instead of adding another production site. For the European business, this does not change the fact that X-Trail is - and will continue to be - a crucial model for us.
Today’s announcement will be interpreted by a lot of people as a decision related to Brexit. We have taken this decision for the business reasons I’ve explained, but clearly the uncertainty around the UK’s future relationship with the EU is not helping companies like ours to plan for the future.
With the UK’s departure from the EU on March 29th getting closer every week, we have a taskforce in place, reporting to me, that is considering all of the possible scenarios and the potential impact on the business. As a responsible business with 16,000 employees in the region, I want you to know that we are preparing across all functions, and with our supply chain, for anything that might impact our current business model. When the time comes to initiate any of those plans, we will be ready, and we will communicate with full transparency to all of you.
In NMUK, we’re still investing heavily in the new Juke and the next-generation Qashqai. Since they were originally allocated, those two models have also needed a lot of additional investment to meet the new emissions regulations and to electrify their powertrains. The NMUK team has just opened a new Paint Shop, and will soon be installing the second new extra-large Press. The team in the plant still has the full confidence of the company.
Thanks for your continued support,
Gianluca de Ficchy
CHAIRMAN, NISSAN EUROPE
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Standard diplomatic statement. No business wants to look like they are trying to influence political decisions.
 
The country is leaving the second largest market in the world and you wonder why companies are moving their manufacturing operations . "Just an excuse"....the mind boggles.
 
Adisa said:
Standard diplomatic statement. No business wants to look like they are trying to influence political decisions.
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Plus, the government is *quite* keen on implimenting gagging orders; in this case, there may be an agreement with companies like Nissan not to 'cause panic' i.e. 'Don't criticise us & we won't criticise you'.
 
The 'M' in 'EU' is silent! #conspiracy
 
Wibble said:
The flaw in your argument is that there is very little, if any, downside to staying in the EU whereas leaving will be an utter clusterfeck.
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A lot of people who voted to leave the EU did it because they had been sold a dream; that being 'take back control'.

It was a very clever piece of advertising as are other election promises.

I have a number of friends who voted to leave. In fact I was very much in the minority.
Some of these are actually quite intelligent.

They see any downside of leaving as a short term pain which is worth it for the long-term gain and are positive that 'we can make it work'.
 
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