Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

  • Total voters
    194
  • Poll closed .
saivet said:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-46814527

This article gave me a chuckle
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Why wouldn't people vote for Brexit when you can have a Brexit Box.

What does mystify me is that people say, if might be a bit chaotic to start with after a few months it will be back to normal.
What happens after a few months to get things back to normal, surely it just gets worse and worse and worse...
 
unchanged_lineup said:
May says No Brexit more likely than No Deal.

Speaking to factory workers, Mrs May will say on Monday: "As we have seen over the last few weeks, there are some in Westminster who would wish to delay or even stop Brexit and who will use every device available to them to do so."

She is to add that she now believes MPs blocking Brexit is more likely than a no-deal scenario.

Mrs May will say: "I ask MPs to consider the consequences of their actions on the faith of the British people in our democracy.

"Imagine if an anti-devolution House of Commons had said to the people of Scotland or Wales that despite voting in favour of a devolved legislature, Parliament knew better and would overrule them. Or else force them to vote again.

"What if we found ourselves in a situation where Parliament tried to take the UK out of the EU in opposition to a remain vote?

"People's faith in the democratic process and their politicians would suffer catastrophic harm. We all have a duty to implement the result of the referendum."
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https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-46856149
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Yeah imagine if the people of Northern Ireland or Scotland had voted to stay within the EU but were being dragged out anyway.

Also imagine if the people of Northern Ireland had voted overwhelmingly to put an agreement in place for closer ties with the Republic and a chance for peace after decades of violence. And that might all be ripped up because some pig fecking public school boy thought calling a referendum on EU membership was a good idea.

Shit happens Theresa, the government have a duty to do whats best for the people, the economy and the country. And theres plenty of evidence that is pointing towards that not being Brexit.
 
Smores said:
That's been out there for weeks and is really only a clarification of the withdrawal terms anyway. It has to relate to the backstop not the UK so it's not a veto on any EU laws just those that affect the agreement. It's worthless and has already been declared as such by everyone.
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Hence why I said too little and too late mate, but thanks for confirming.

I mentioned the continuation of the veto because I was unaware of it, so suspected others might be too. It would allow the UK to veto any new law from applying to the UK, which could over time amount to quite an advantage for the UK, in being allowed to pick and choose what does or doesn't apply to us. Being in that position as a willing EU member is one thing, but as a Leaver another. The EU wouldn't want that. A small straw to grasp for the Tory rebels maybe, but it's all I've been able to take from today's news so far.
 
711 said:
Hence why I said too little and too late mate, but thanks for confirming.

I mentioned the continuation of the veto because I was unaware of it, so suspected others might be too. It would allow the UK to veto any new law from applying to the UK, which could over time amount to quite an advantage for the UK, in being allowed to pick and choose what does or doesn't apply to us. Being in that position as a willing EU member is one thing, but as a Leaver another. The EU wouldn't want that. A small straw to grasp for the Tory rebels maybe, but it's all I've been able to take from today's news so far.
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There is no veto in the agreement. Here you have the concerned part, the last paragraph is important:

5. Where the Union adopts a new act that falls within the scope of this Protocol, but neither
amends nor replaces a Union act listed in the Annexes to this Protocol, the Union shall inform the
United Kingdom of this adoption in the Joint Committee. Upon request of the Union or the United
Kingdom, the Joint Committee shall hold an exchange of views on the implications of the newly
adopted act for the proper functioning of this Protocol within 6 weeks after the request.

As soon as reasonably practical after the Union has informed the United Kingdom in the Joint
Committee, the Joint Committee shall either:

(a) adopt a decision adding the newly adopted act to the relevant Annex of this Protocol; or

(b) where an agreement on adding the newly adopted act to the relevant Annex to this Protocol
cannot be reached, examine all further possibilities to maintain the good functioning of this
Protocol and take any decision necessary to this effect.

If the Joint Committee has not taken a decision within a reasonable time, the Union shall be
entitled, after giving notice to the United Kingdom, to take appropriate remedial measures. Such
measures shall take effect at the earliest 6 months after the Union informed the United Kingdom in
accordance with the first subparagraph, but in no event earlier than the date on which the newly
adopted act is implemented in the Union
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Sassy Colin said:
A think it's more a case that a Tory MP has resigned the whip, Gareth Johnson.
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Sky News just said one of the whips resigned. Wasn't paying 100% attention though, can't say who.

When brexiteers keep banging on about the damage to democracy (catastrophic damage in Mrs. May's words) that would be dealt by not committing economic suicide, what do they imagine happening? People not voting anymore? The queen telling parliament to sod off? Corbyn becoming dictator?

And how come they never get asked?
 
JPRouve said:
There is no veto in the agreement. Here you have the concerned part, the last paragraph is important:
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Thanks, I got the veto thing from a commentator, and I just believed him. If I read your stuff right, and god knows I'm no lawyer, the UK can fail to agree (ie veto) but then the EU can take 'remedial measures' in response. I suppose that would depend on what was being vetoed and what remedial measures could be seen as appropriate. I've dragged us off into a very hypothetical place now though, so I'll shut up and await the next development. Seems something might happen in the next day or two. :)
 
Just listening on Sky News - Tom Brake being interviewed - pro-Remain

His objection to the deal is because the agreement May has got is not a trade deal and means that the UK and EU will be discussing the trade deal for years to come.

Well, well. This sums up the farce and mess the Uk is in.

Both Brexiters and Remainers still have not understood that the part that gets the UK out of the EU is the withdrawal agreement.
No future trade agreements will happen until the UK have left and it will take years.

Welcome to Brexit you fools.
.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
Just listening on Sky News - Tom Brake being interviewed - pro-Remain

His objection to the deal is because the agreement May has got is not a trade deal and means that the UK and EU will be discussing the trade deal for years to come.

Well, well. This sums up the farce and mess the Uk is in.

Both Brexiters and Remainers still have not understood that the part that gets the UK out of the EU is the withdrawal agreement.
No future trade agreements will happen until the UK have left and it will take years.

Welcome to Brexit you fools.
.
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Oh I think they know that... It's just convenient to ignore it (for both sides)
 
sun_tzu said:
Oh I think they know that... It's just convenient to ignore it (for both sides)
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But if they ignore it , we are still back to the remaining two choices which is No deal or Cancel. Cancel looks extremely unlikely so in effect the majority of MPs being Remain are in effect voting for No Deal.

Ironically if the deal gets voted down tomorrow by a lower number than the number of Labour MPs voting against it, when the sh!t hits the fan Corbyn will end up with at least part of the blame having done absolutely nothing regarding Brexit.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
But if they ignore it , we are still back to the remaining two choices which is No deal or Cancel. Cancel looks extremely unlikely so in effect the majority of MPs being Remain are in effect voting for No Deal.

Ironically if the deal gets voted down tomorrow by a lower number than the number of Labour MPs voting against it, when the sh!t hits the fan Corbyn will end up with at least part of the blame having done absolutely nothing regarding Brexit.
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Exactly! But isn't this where we came in?
Since the EU made it plain from the off until the UK (either with a deal or with no deal) left the EU, then no future trade talks/discussions, let alone deals, could be done.

Makes you wonder what Mrs May was thinking off even turning up for so called talks?

So we either leave on the 29th March or we remain... seems like groundhog day to me
 
Maticmaker said:
Exactly! But isn't this where we came in?
Since the EU made it plain from the off until the UK (either with a deal or with no deal) left the EU, then no future trade talks/discussions, let alone deals, could be done.

Makes you wonder what Mrs May was thinking off even turning up for so called talks?

So we either leave on the 29th March or we remain... seems like groundhog day to me
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The difference is if they accept the withdrawal agreement then the future deal gets sorted out over the next few years without the Uk falling off a cliff which is what's in May's mind. The first two years of talks were only about leaving but politicians have misled each other and the public into thinking that some fantastic trade deal would be ready at the moment the Uk left the EU. That was never going to happen.
 
Maticmaker said:
Exactly! But isn't this where we came in?
Since the EU made it plain from the off until the UK (either with a deal or with no deal) left the EU, then no future trade talks/discussions, let alone deals, could be done.

Makes you wonder what Mrs May was thinking off even turning up for so called talks?

So we either leave on the 29th March or we remain... seems like groundhog day to me
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You just highlighted the issue, the talks were about an orderly withdrawal. People not understanding it after two years is almost shocking.
 
MaxiPaxi said:
Was about to post this... imagine actually buying one of them things for 300 quid. Ya fecking mad?
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300 quid is mental, but the government saying 'there was "no need" to stockpile any of the items in the box' seems irresponsible, considering the box contains food. Shouldn't they encourage people to keep a few weeks food in the house regardless of Brexit? It seems like just common sense to have some kind of backup.
 
Kentonio said:
300 quid is mental, but the government saying 'there was "no need" to stockpile any of the items in the box' seems irresponsible, considering the box contains food. Shouldn't they encourage people to keep a few weeks food in the house regardless of Brexit? It seems like just common sense to have some kind of backup.
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I wonder what the value of the food in the box is and what the mark up is for calling it a brexit box.
Fair play to the chap... I'm disappointed I didn't think of it though... My Best brexit plan is to buy lots of dinghy's and set up shop on the south coast as people try and flee to Europe to escape
 
Paul the Wolf said:
The difference is if they accept the withdrawal agreement then the future deal gets sorted out over the next few years without the Uk falling off a cliff which is what's in May's mind. The first two years of talks were only about leaving but politicians have misled each other and the public into thinking that some fantastic trade deal would be ready at the moment the Uk left the EU. That was never going to happen.
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TBH I think May, an astute politician and remember she was always at best a reluctant Brexiteer has steered the course she always wanted, i.e. to reach an impasse where the only outcome is either leave with no deal or to stay in the EU and in effect to call the whole thing off and cancel Brexit. She has brilliantly used the disarray in Parliament (in part that her own actions have caused), as cover to arrive at the impasse and only now (in last 24 hours) has she admitted in public that Brexit will be cancelled.

This might not have been her original intended approach, but after her catastrophic decision to hold an early election went 'belly up' and nearly let slip the Corbyn dogs of war, she knew her parliamentary career within the Tory party was over.

Now when the dust settles she will be venerated by the remain side in years to come, and treated as a hate figure by Brexiteers... that assumes the EU survives its other woes!
 
Maticmaker said:
TBH I think May, an astute politician and remember she was always at best a reluctant Brexiteer has steered the course she always wanted, i.e. to reach an impasse where the only outcome is either leave with no deal or to stay in the EU and in effect to call the whole thing off and cancel Brexit. She has brilliantly used the disarray in Parliament (in part that her own actions have caused), as cover to arrive at the impasse and only now (in last 24 hours) has she admitted in public that Brexit will be cancelled.

This might not have been her original intended approach, but after her catastrophic decision to hold an early election went 'belly up' and nearly let slip the Corbyn dogs of war, she knew her parliamentary career within the Tory party was over.

Now when the dust settles she will be venerated by the remain side in years to come, and treated as a hate figure by Brexiteers... that assumes the EU survives its other woes!
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I believe May is despised by the Remainers as much as the Brexiters. I've never classed May or Corbyn as remainers despite both declaring they were.

May's biggest fault is that she laid out the red lines she believed the Brexiters wanted which were never going to pass. She has lied to everyone by making out she could achieve things which were unobtainable and Corbyn is doing the same now.
May knows she's done but will cling on for dear life - she has a fixed objective - get Brexit over the line and do whatever she can to get there.
I doubt Brexit will be cancelled, that's just to scare the MPs into voting for her deal.
 
There's a lot of good points being raised to May but she always deflects them with nonsense, politicians both sides need to drop the false politeness and kick her while she's down.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
I believe May is despised by the Remainers as much as the Brexiters. I've never classed May or Corbyn as remainers despite both declaring they were.

May's biggest fault is that she laid out the red lines she believed the Brexiters wanted which were never going to pass. She has lied to everyone by making out she could achieve things which were unobtainable and Corbyn is doing the same now.
May knows she's done but will cling on for dear life - she has a fixed objective - get Brexit over the line and do whatever she can to get there.
I doubt Brexit will be cancelled, that's just to scare the MPs into voting for her deal.
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I agree with most of what you say except that Brexit will not be cancelled... in political terms it has to be, both main political parties want it off the books as an item before the next GE 2022/3 otherwise mayhem will ensue.

The Brexit fallout will remain of course, with Brexiteers baying on the side lines at every perceive EU slight against the UK, the UK, in the EU itself, treated with an even more disdain by the other 27 and no longer able to claim (at least legitimately ) any further opt outs. However gradually some sort of political normality will have to return, but against what background its hard to say, certainly two party politics in the UK has probably been dealt a mortal blow by this whole exercise... which some might think is not a bad thing!
 
Maticmaker said:
TBH I think May, an astute politician and remember she was always at best a reluctant Brexiteer has steered the course she always wanted, i.e. to reach an impasse where the only outcome is either leave with no deal or to stay in the EU and in effect to call the whole thing off and cancel Brexit. She has brilliantly used the disarray in Parliament (in part that her own actions have caused), as cover to arrive at the impasse and only now (in last 24 hours) has she admitted in public that Brexit will be cancelled.

This might not have been her original intended approach, but after her catastrophic decision to hold an early election went 'belly up' and nearly let slip the Corbyn dogs of war, she knew her parliamentary career within the Tory party was over.

Now when the dust settles she will be venerated by the remain side in years to come, and treated as a hate figure by Brexiteers... that assumes the EU survives its other woes!
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I would like that to be true but I think you give May too much credit. She simply made a mess of the process, starting out with tacking towards the hard Leavers early in her premiership and then serving Art 50 without having a clue what was an achievable target. She also ballsed up her job at the Home Office.
 
Maticmaker said:
I agree with most of what you say except that Brexit will not be cancelled... in political terms it has to be, both main political parties want it off the books as an item before the next GE 2022/3 otherwise mayhem will ensue.

The Brexit fallout will remain of course, with Brexiteers baying on the side lines at every perceive EU slight against the UK, the UK, in the EU itself, treated with an even more disdain by the other 27 and no longer able to claim (at least legitimately ) any further opt outs. However gradually some sort of political normality will have to return, but against what background its hard to say, certainly two party politics in the UK has probably been dealt a mortal blow by this whole exercise... which some might think is not a bad thing!
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The reasons I think Brexit will not be cancelled are May will not do it, if she is replaced as Tory Party leader it will almost certainly be a hard Brexiter and I don't see a GE or referendum coming and even if they did who's going to take the responsibility. One added reason is the whole world has been watching on for the past 30 months looking at the UK tying itself in knots , is anyone in the government going to admit they've made a huge mistake and pull out, the humiliation will be too much for them to take.
 
MoskvaRed said:
I would like that to be true but I think you give May too much credit. She simply made a mess of the process, starting out with tacking towards the hard Leavers early in her premiership and then serving Art 50 without having a clue what was an achievable target. She also ballsed up her job at the Home Office.
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She's absolutely awful, I think May will go down as the worst PM in modern history.

She wasn't tacking to leave, it was all a pack of lies from day one.

I agree no one expected leave to win and no one had a negotiating strategy lined up for how to achieve what was being debated by leave in the referendum. She could have taken some time to figure out how to at least try to honour the vote.

Her actual strategy from day one though was to get a deal from the EU, any deal it didn't really matter. Then use lying, subterfuge and propaganda from the UK media behind her to ram it down the countries throat whether they liked it or not. She had Brexit secretary's in the cabinet but they didn't actually do anything. Instead in July this year she suddenly ambushed the cabinet with her withdrawal agreement, which had been drafted by the EU and coordinated with our civil service.

The withdrawal agreement is far inferior to simply remaining and does not honour the main points of the referendum in any way what so ever. Fairly impressively she has managed to alienate both leave and remain as the deal represents the worst of all worlds for everyone.

In the circumstances I think we should just withdraw article 50 and bury Brexit for the foreseeable future. So much nonsense and horse trading going on in Parliament. It would be for the best if a national government is formed, indeed that is possible if and when the government lose a confidence vote. They will then do the only logical thing left by ending the Brexit debacle. We then have a general election. Without May and without Brexit.
 
Mb194dc said:
She's absolutely awful, I think May will go down as the worst PM in modern history.

She wasn't tacking to leave, it was all a pack of lies from day one.

I agree no one expected leave to win and no one had a negotiating strategy lined up for how to achieve what was being debated by leave in the referendum. She could have taken some time to figure out how to at least try to honour the vote.

Her actual strategy from day one though was to get a deal from the EU, any deal it didn't really matter. Then use lying, subterfuge and propaganda from the UK media behind her to ram it down the countries throat whether they liked it or not. She had Brexit secretary's in the cabinet but they didn't actually do anything. Instead in July this year she suddenly ambushed the cabinet with her withdrawal agreement, which had been drafted by the EU and coordinated with our civil service.

The withdrawal agreement is far inferior to simply remaining and does not honour the main points of the referendum in any way what so ever. Fairly impressively she has managed to alienate both leave and remain as the deal represents the worst of all worlds for everyone.

In the circumstances I think we should just withdraw article 50 and bury Brexit for the foreseeable future. So much nonsense and horse trading going on in Parliament. It would be for the best if a national government is formed, indeed that is possible if and when the government lose a confidence vote. They will then do the only logical thing left by ending the Brexit debacle. We then have a general election. Without May and without Brexit.
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I agree with most of what you say but what were her “red lines” or her “citizens of nowhere” remarks if not pandering to the Brexit extremists?
 
Paul the Wolf said:
The reasons I think Brexit will not be cancelled are May will not do it, if she is replaced as Tory Party leader it will almost certainly be a hard Brexiter and I don't see a GE or referendum coming and even if they did who's going to take the responsibility. One added reason is the whole world has been watching on for the past 30 months looking at the UK tying itself in knots , is anyone in the government going to admit they've made a huge mistake and pull out, the humiliation will be too much for them to take.
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Brexit will be cancelled, (some might argue it was always going to be), even from the day after the referendum; remember Political leaders are above all else motivated by two things, survival and legacy (their own).

Mrs May's political survival now looks impossible, and she herself is probably yearning to get away, so when her deal gets voted down tomorrow, then her legacy instead of being the heroine who battled the EU over Brexit and won, she will now have to be content with the legacy of the brave leader who sacrificed-self to keep the UK intact as a nation, and within the EU!

It was always a binary choice!
 
MoskvaRed said:
I agree with most of what you say but what were her “red lines” or her “citizens of nowhere” remarks if not pandering to the Brexit extremists?
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All just a pack of lies with purpose, a total smoke screen to make it look like she had some leave inclination.

Part of her propaganda war the final part of which was to try and convince everyone that the withdrawal agreement is actually "Brexit".

When it's actually remaining in the EU without a vote, without an unilateral exit clause and actually tying us in more and giving the UK less control than by simply doing nothing. Not only that, the way the agreement is framed the EU could simply make demands in the trade negotiations the UK can't accept until it's worn down and there is a second referendum anyway.

She's an exceptional liar and seemingly unbelievably manipulative. Most of her strategy for the last month seems to have been aimed at keeping herself in number 10 at pretty much any cost.
 
Mb194dc said:
She's absolutely awful, I think May will go down as the worst PM in modern history.

She wasn't tacking to leave, it was all a pack of lies from day one.

I agree no one expected leave to win and no one had a negotiating strategy lined up for how to achieve what was being debated by leave in the referendum. She could have taken some time to figure out how to at least try to honour the vote.

Her actual strategy from day one though was to get a deal from the EU, any deal it didn't really matter. Then use lying, subterfuge and propaganda from the UK media behind her to ram it down the countries throat whether they liked it or not. She had Brexit secretary's in the cabinet but they didn't actually do anything. Instead in July this year she suddenly ambushed the cabinet with her withdrawal agreement, which had been drafted by the EU and coordinated with our civil service.

The withdrawal agreement is far inferior to simply remaining and does not honour the main points of the referendum in any way what so ever. Fairly impressively she has managed to alienate both leave and remain as the deal represents the worst of all worlds for everyone.

In the circumstances I think we should just withdraw article 50 and bury Brexit for the foreseeable future. So much nonsense and horse trading going on in Parliament. It would be for the best if a national government is formed, indeed that is possible if and when the government lose a confidence vote. They will then do the only logical thing left by ending the Brexit debacle. We then have a general election. Without May and without Brexit.
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I don’t think she set out aiming for any deal from day one. I think she was just as ignorant and stupid as her extreme Brexiteer colleagues, and genuinely believed we had a much stronger negotiating hand than we actually do. No way any politician would have deliberately accepted the repeated humiliation of setting red line after red line, just to have them knocked down in her face.

A mad arrogance overtook much of the Conservative party over Brexit, built up by decades of self-delusion and lies. Now we just have to wait and see if they take the rest of us down with them, or if some kind of sanity prevails at the last minute. I’m not holding my breath though.
 
Didn't parliament overwhelmingly vote to allow Article 50 to be triggered?

They allowed this to happen with no plan laid out other than a self-important delusion that they held all the cards.

The whole of parliament are responsible for this mess.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
Didn't parliament overwhelmingly vote to allow Article 50 to be triggered?

They allowed this to happen with no plan laid out other than a self-important delusion that they held all the cards.

The whole of parliament are responsible for this mess.
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Yes.

They voted article 50 without a clue, no one asked if there was any negotiation strategy or even what the objectives were. No one said, Wait a minute shouldn't we actually decide what we want, and find out the consequences of WTO with a feasibility study just in case we can't get a deal.

From what I can remember the press and political commentators didn't really point that out at the time either.

Blind faith / Madness when you think about it.
 
sun_tzu said:
How many amendments...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-46507010
Will be interesting to see which get voted on
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A lot of them seem to be fairly moronic as they can't even be implemented unilaterally.

One of them seeks to force the government to do a trade deal with the EU one year in to the backstop. You wonder who thinks these things through. The EU could then demand anything knowing the government would be forced to accept it :lol::lol:.
 
Maticmaker said:
Brexit will be cancelled, (some might argue it was always going to be), even from the day after the referendum; remember Political leaders are above all else motivated by two things, survival and legacy (their own).

Mrs May's political survival now looks impossible, and she herself is probably yearning to get away, so when her deal gets voted down tomorrow, then her legacy instead of being the heroine who battled the EU over Brexit and won, she will now have to be content with the legacy of the brave leader who sacrificed-self to keep the UK intact as a nation, and within the EU!

It was always a binary choice!
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Yes it may be a binary choice.
Most politicians care about one thing , themselves.

I don't think May worries about her legacy, she has become PM which was the ultimate aim and will live comfortably when she's gone.
Her aim since she was Home Secretary was to reduce immigration and that is still the case, when she talks about Brexit, she only talks about respecting Brexiters views on immigration.
She has tunnel vision and any collateral damage is well just hard luck.

All PM's however good or bad they were are usually remembered for the worst thing they ever did and have to have the skin of a rhinoceros.
 
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