Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[4bars]

The long term benefits are obvious. We'd be a free governing nation again, and would be able to trade with whoever we wished. Short term problems are unknown, because the leaving process is unknown.
There's also the possibility of EU reform due to the growing issues in countries like Germany and Italy especially at the moment. If the reform was quite significant, it may be enough to force a second referendum.

As I understand:

- Any country would like to trade with all the countries under the most beneficial terms. Inside the EU, UK will get better deals than alone. Also, if any agreement is not ok for the UK, the UK can veto it ALWAYS. I don't see that argument as correct
- UK is a sovereign country, he accepts EU regulation. In trade, they have to go under EU regulations in order to sell into the EU market. Outside the EU, if the UK wants to sell to the EU, will need to go under EU regulations as well. The only difference is that inside the EU, the UK can influence in those regulations (actually it did to the benefit of the EU also) and now will not have any influence (at least direct).
- If "issues" is an euphemism of immigration (sorry if I misunderstood that), UK has 100% sovereignty in non-EU immigration now inside the EU. being outside, will not change that fact. Again, any change in any immigration policy that is not of the like of UK, could be vetoed.
- About the EU immigration, UK has absolutely the right to deport any EU national that has no job and does not meet some requirements after 3 months of the arrival. Had been the UK that did not enforce this policy of which UK completely is sovereign to apply.

In my understanding your arguments don't adjust to reality and UK is absolutely sovereign in matters of immigration and has veto capacity of any trade deal that does not agree on and the probability to have way better deals inside the EU than outside it

Could you discuss my points in case I am wrong, please?

 

[Rightnr]

The long term benefits are obvious. We'd be a free governing nation again, and would be able to trade with whoever we wished. Short term problems are unknown, because the leaving process is unknown.
There's also the possibility of EU reform due to the growing issues in countries like Germany and Italy especially at the moment. If the reform was quite significant, it may be enough to force a second referendum.

The tl;dr version of this is basically - do what I say because I will wish it into reality. Pure fantasy land and wishful thinking.

 

[Adisa]

 

[Massive Spanner]

The long term benefits are obvious. We'd be a free governing nation again, and would be able to trade with whoever we wished. Short term problems are unknown, because the leaving process is unknown.
There's also the possibility of EU reform due to the growing issues in countries like Germany and Italy especially at the moment. If the reform was quite significant, it may be enough to force a second referendum.

So true.

Well, except for the biggest free trade bloc in the world, who are also your closest neighbours.

But other than that, bob's yer uncle.

Well, apart from all the other mega-nations that already have trade agreements with that bloc.

But other than that...

 

[Paul the Wolf]

We currently trade according to EU regulations. This makes the EU sovereign where trade is concerned.
Regardless of how immigration affects the UK, there is anti EU sentiment growing throughout europe. The EU cannot afford to see too many other countries vote to leave. There's a serious risk of them losing Italy.
As for all of the negotiating, who knows? We have a weak government in power with a leader who is a remainer, and the majority of westminster is out to derail the leave process. We have to wait and see what the leave process will be. However, the threat of walking away with no deal has to be upheld by us if we do not want to be taken to the cleaners by the EU, which is why May wanted a bigger majority government. That backfired massively, and this also has made the government weaker.

What do you mean we trade according to EU regulations?
In the future the UK will still sell to the EU. To be able to sell to the EU the products the UK sells have to conform to EU regulations.

The UK are selling to elsewhere in the world under WTO rules, there are some free trade agreements with various countries throughout the world of which the UK were part of the negotiations on the EU team with those countries. But the WTO rules are not the only thing that govern trade.
Whether now whilst in the EU or afterwards outside the EU, whatever the UK sells to other countries has to conform to that country's regulations. That had nothing to do with the EU and won't change.
I will add that when a country such as Australia currently deals with the EU, it knows that the products it buys will conform to EU regulations whether it was manufactured in Poland, Spain or the UK. When the UK leaves the EU which standards will the UK adopt and will they meet Australian regulations?

What will change is that all those deals that the UK were part of will become null and void when the UK leaves. The UK will then have to negotiate a new deal with every single country or bloc.
Now destroying what the UK already has in order to hope that something better than they currently have might occur in the long distant future seems a very high price to pay for something which would be nigh on impossible.
What you are saying is that a corner shop could get a better deal than Tesco or Sainsbury with the wholesaler. How is that possible?

I don't see how Italy would want to leave the EU, that would be economic suicide as well.. Sure people are fed up with immigrants/refugees but the boats will still cross the Mediterranean whether they're in or out. The problem is why there are so many refugees - sort the problem at the source.

The EU would prefer that the UK had a strong and stable government, they don't know who they're dealing with, is it Johnson and JRM, May and Davis or the Daily Mail, who's really running the country.
Having a 100% Tory Hardline Brexit House of Commons will not change the fact that the EU are not going to allow the UK to cherry pick which parts they like.
However, I'm still unclear what the UK will negotiate. Will they pay 38 , 39 or 40 billion pounds. Citizens rights are the only real negotiating point left other than the future trade negotiations which will only start when the UK have left.
The UK have said they are leaving the CU/SM so either they change their mind or they have to put up a hard border in Ireland, not because of EU regulations but because of WTO regulations.

 

[stevoc]

The UK have said they are leaving the CU/SM so either they change their mind or they have to put up a hard border in Ireland, not because of EU regulations but because of WTO regulations.

Which would of course break the Good Friday Agreement, an International agreement. Great way to show the world whether or not Britain can uphold international agreements at a time when they will be looking to negotiate lots of them.

 

[Adisa]

They insult us everyday.

 

[C3Pique]

They sure do

 

[Oscie]

We are going to need regulatory alignment with the EU. So what we can offer future trading partners is the same as we can now only without allowing them access to the Single Market. Not quite sure how that's supposed to make us a more attractive trading partner than we are now.

 

[C3Pique]

There is no deal that sees Britain leave Europe and for it to be beneficial to the UK economy. It literally does not exist.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Why do people keep going on about Norway, it is not a solution for an economy like Britain.

What do Brexiters actually expect the EU to give them, but if they don't give it to them they're going to commit suicide. Sounds slightly deranged to me.

 

[Green_Red]

Why do people keep going on about Norway, it is not a solution for an economy like Britain.

What do Brexiters actually expect the EU to give them, but if they don't give it to them they're going to commit suicide. Sounds slightly deranged to me.

But there is no good deal to be had. How is staying part of a customs union with zero political power advantageous to Britain? That only benefits Europe. This whole car industry thing is bollox too. The major part of the British economy is services. But please, explain how being part of the customs union and single market is good for Britain without political power.

 

[Oscie]

"Do what I want or I will punch myself in the face, then you'll be sorry"

 

[C3Pique]

But there is no good deal to be had. How is staying part of a customs union with zero political power advantageous to Britain? That only benefits Europe. This whole car industry thing is bollox too. The major part of the British economy is services. But please, explain how being part of the customs union and single market is good for Britain without political power.

So you agree we should remain? Glad we're all on the same page.

 

[Oscie]

But there is no good deal to be had. How is staying part of a customs union with zero political power advantageous to Britain? That only benefits Europe.

True. But we "took back control" and voted to remove any political power we had.

 

[Green_Red]

So you agree we should remain? Glad we're all on the same page.

Im not a Brexiter. When the vote was happening I was laughing my bollox off at how stupid British people are for voting for it. But it was voted for and it is happening. That given doesn't mean that you should prove how stupid you really are by allowing Paris, Brussells and Berlin to scaremonger you into a terrible soft brexit deal that costs more, with less benefits and is lopsided in Europes favour.

Long term soft Brexit is not in your economic interest. Think about it... why on earth would Europe let Britain out with a deal that is economically beneficial to Britain. Why would any country stay a member? It will never happen.

 

[C3Pique]

And no deal is better how? The country would be shut down within a week.

 

[Green_Red]

"Do what I want or I will punch myself in the face, then you'll be sorry"

"Give me everything I want, then we'll discuss what you want"

 

[Green_Red]

And no deal is better how? The country would be shut down within a week.

Do you really believe that?

 

[Paul the Wolf]

But there is no good deal to be had. How is staying part of a customs union with zero political power advantageous to Britain? That only benefits Europe. This whole car industry thing is bollox too. The major part of the British economy is services. But please, explain how being part of the customs union and single market is good for Britain without political power.

Of course, being part of the CU/SM without any say is not great but the UK decided to leave, it's the next best thing to actually being in the EU.
The car industry thing is not a red herring, it's not just the car industry , it's manufacturing of all types. It is also to do with the supply of food for one thing.

If the UK has a frictioned border it cannot cope with the delays it can cause nor the administration. What is your solution for the NI border ? Because you're also saying CU/SM is not acceptable.

Yes the main part of the UK economy is services but that also requires equal access only granted the same way.

All options are bad for the UK, it's just what will be the least bad.

 

[Green_Red]

No deal gives you the ability to start fresh. That terrible deal will noose you to Europe. And thats what it is a noose. And Europe are fecking laughing their bolloxs off knowing yous are going to agree to it.

 

[devilish]

They insult us everyday.

thanks for the advert.

As*hole.

 

[C3Pique]

Do you really believe that?

Ok, let's start with Open Skies, then Euratom. Tell me how they work in this magical No Deal scenario of yours and then we'll get on to the complicated stuff...

 

[devilish]

No deal gives you the ability to start fresh. That terrible deal will noose you to Europe. And thats what it is a noose. And Europe are fecking laughing their bolloxs off knowing yous are going to agree to it.

All countries are 'noosed' to its continent. That's why orange man had backtracked about destroying NAFTA and we're talking about the US, a financial superpower the size of a continent not the UK.

That's the problem with Brexit. The Brexiteers want to cut ties with the very continent they desperately need.

 

[Green_Red]

Of course, being part of the CU/SM without any say is not great but the UK decided to leave, it's the next best thing to actually being in the EU.
The car industry thing is not a red herring, it's not just the car industry , it's manufacturing of all types. It is also to do with the supply of food for one thing.

If the UK has a frictioned border it cannot cope with the delays it can cause nor the administration. What is your solution for the NI border ? Because you're also saying CU/SM is not acceptable.

Yes the main part of the UK economy is services but that also requires equal access only granted the same way.

All options are bad for the UK, it's just what will be the least bad.

You decided to leave, then leave...

Go back and read my suggestion for the NI border. I am from 30 miles from the NI border in Ireland. I think its a reasonable amd achievable suggestion.

Youre in frieght handling so are looking at this in your own way. A European Economic Area Agreement similar to Norways gives the time to work out a proper agreement / deal. Why not use that mechanism?

 

[Green_Red]

Ok, let's start with Open Skies, then Euratom. Tell me how they work in this magical No Deal scenario of yours and then we'll get on to the complicated stuff...

What do you actually know about either of those things?

 

[C3Pique]

What do you actually know about either of those things?

You answer my question first, then ask your own...

 

[Paul the Wolf]

No deal gives you the ability to start fresh. That terrible deal will noose you to Europe. And thats what it is a noose. And Europe are fecking laughing their bolloxs off knowing yous are going to agree to it.

No deal paralyses the country. Why would you want to destroy the economy to start afresh. What does that mean? What will the UK obtain that is better than they already have and how long will they have to wait for it.
What is the goal that the UK are seeking?

If the UK could be self sufficient, not have to deal with the outside world at all and stay on their island you could almost understand Brexit, but even then why would you do that.

 

[Green_Red]

You answer my question first, then ask your own...

Haha what feckin age are you? I know nothing about either. Open Skies is an agreement between US and EU. Thats something you will have to renegotiate on your own with the US and EU.

Listen Im not running for Prime Minister here so I dont jump to every question Im asked. At the end of the day I dont have to provide a solution to all the problems and pushing that as an agenda to try and silence me is frankly childish.

Leaving is not going to be easy but look at the benefits long term and the deal that ties you to Europe is not worth taking.

 

[C3Pique]

So you know nothing about either, but think you know enough for the UK to abandon all agreements that tie us to the EU.

The type of insight that got us into this mess in the first place.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Haha what feckin age are you? I know nothing about either. Open Skies is an agreement between US and EU. Thats something you will have to renegotiate on your own with the US and EU.

Listen Im not running for Prime Minister here so I dont jump to every question Im asked. At the end of the day I dont have to provide a solution to all the problems and pushing that as an agenda to try and silence me is frankly childish.

Leaving is not going to be easy but look at the benefits long term and the deal that ties you to Europe is not worth taking.

But what are the benefits long term?

As other posters have already pointed out, nobody knows anything about the long term. No studies have taken place on it, there's nothing. Nobody has a clue where a hard Brexit will leave the UK in ten years, only that it will probably feck them, and others in the short-term once they do it. They might recover and become a bigger economy, or it might leave them fecked, nobody knows.

Trying to speculate on long term benefits and whatnot is naive thinking because nothing like this has ever happened before so we simply do not have a clue. It's as silly as the leaver's whole campaign and logic in the first place, quite frankly.

 

[Green_Red]

No deal paralyses the country. Why would you want to destroy the economy to start afresh. What does that mean? What will the UK obtain that is better than they already have and how long will they have to wait for it.
What is the goal that the UK are seeking?

If the UK could be self sufficient, not have to deal with the outside world at all and stay on their island you could almost understand Brexit, but even then why would you do that.

But you're out, so why are you asking those questions now?

You will NOT get any deal from Europe that benefits Britain. Never happening. So wake up to that. If you take the soft brexit in 5 years you will be complaining aboit how May and the tories fecked the country by taking such a bad deal.

 

[Green_Red]

So you know nothing about either, but think you know enough for the UK to abandon all agreements that tie us to the EU.

The type of insight that got us into this mess in the first place.

You havent actually said anything in about 8 messages. Nothing...

 

[C3Pique]

You havent actually said anything in about 8 messages. Nothing...

And neither have you, only you are presenting No Deal as a viable option. But with no tangiable, proven benefits, and no solutions to the inevitable problems that will arise.

I don't have an answer because there is no good outcome if Brexit happens. But No Deal is the very, very, very worst option.

 

[Massive Spanner]

But you're out, so why are you asking those questions now?

You will NOT get any deal from Europe that benefits Britain. Never happening. So wake up to that. If you take the soft brexit in 5 years you will be complaining aboit how May and the tories fecked the country by taking such a bad deal.

They will though. You're looking at it in terms of current deal vs future deal, but if you look at it in terms of future deal vs no deal...

 

[Green_Red]

They will though. You're looking at it in terms of current deal vs future deal, but if you look at it in terms of future deal vs no deal...

Thats exactly what I am saying. Use the Economic Area agreement to buy time and get a proper deal... Dont take the soft deal.

 

[C3Pique]

You will NOT get any deal from Europe that benefits Britain. Never happening.

Thats exactly what I am saying. Use the Economic Area agreement to buy time and get a proper deal... Dont take the soft deal.

You're contradicting yourself.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Thats exactly what I am saying. Use the Economic Area agreement to buy time and get a proper deal... Dont take the soft deal.

Sorry but I don't get you, this is what you said before?

No deal gives you the ability to start fresh. That terrible deal will noose you to Europe. And thats what it is a noose. And Europe are fecking laughing their bolloxs off knowing yous are going to agree to it.

And anyway, even on your first point, regardless of whether the UK take the agreement or not, they won't get a different deal if they do, it doesn't matter if they take a deal now, or two, or five years down the line, the EU rules will still be the same.

if/when the UK leave the EU the only "good" deal (i.e. less bad, because nothing is as good as what they currently have) is a soft brexit and staying in the single market. It won't get better than that.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

You decided to leave, then leave...

Go back and read my suggestion for the NI border. I am from 30 miles from the NI border in Ireland. I think its a reasonable amd achievable suggestion.

Youre in frieght handling so are looking at this in your own way. A European Economic Area Agreement similar to Norways gives the time to work out a proper agreement / deal. Why not use that mechanism?

But you're out, so why are you asking those questions now?

You will NOT get any deal from Europe that benefits Britain. Never happening. So wake up to that. If you take the soft brexit in 5 years you will be complaining aboit how May and the tories fecked the country by taking such a bad deal.

I didn't decide to leave. I live in France, I decided to leave the UK 11 years ago. I thought you were in Australia.
Brexit is the most stupid thing the UK have done since the war. I don't live and never will live in the UK again.

EEA involves borders, it's the border that is the problem. The UK cannot cope without a frictionless border.

I don't need to ask questions, I know the answers and knew the answers long before the referendum.
Pity people didn't find out the answers before they voted.

 

[JPRouve]

You decided to leave, then leave...

Go back and read my suggestion for the NI border. I am from 30 miles from the NI border in Ireland. I think its a reasonable amd achievable suggestion.

Youre in frieght handling so are looking at this in your own way. A European Economic Area Agreement similar to Norways gives the time to work out a proper agreement / deal. Why not use that mechanism?

Because that's not a mechanism, that's an actual deal.