Those whose mind cannot be changed based on who is making the argument have scant claim of having a mind at all.
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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Those whose mind cannot be changed based on who is making the argument have scant claim of having a mind at all.
Then send someone who isn't the most hated politician in the country to deliver his message.
Maybe he is the only one willing to clearly send the message because he is already hated?
He’s right though, it’s how trump got into power. Sometimes you have to suck it up and look beyond who is delivering the message.
The hard left do have an obsession with the past to the point where making sure everyone knows previous indiscretions of Labour figures matters more to them than actually beating the Tories and forming a government. Whether that be something major like Iraq when Blair enters into any debate, or the cry of 'traitor' whenever a non Corbyn sycophant MP says anything ever.
And some of you lot think Remain could win a second referendum.
And some of you lot think Remain could win a second referendum.
You do realise who listens to LBC don't you? Their hosts include Nigel Farage among other "figures"...
One of their star presenters James O'brien is as fanatical a Remainer as it gets.
People underestimate how right wing the country is.
One old guy even say he didn't mind if his children and grandchildren were poorer.
One old guy even say he didn't mind if his children and grandchildren were poorer.
My point is that a radio giving Farage a platform attracts a certain type of listener...
I would say all of their hosts are highly opinionated and so are their listeners so there's no surprise regarding the poll.
My Mum just announced that she is upset that she had to renew her passport before they turn Blue. "Iconic"
My Mum just announced that she is upset that she had to renew her passport before they turn Blue. "Iconic"
She should do a Brexiteer and stay in the UK for good. Its a hostile world out there filled with 'foreigners'
Guess the kids don't get a choice.
The hatred the UK older generation has towards the younger ones had always fascinated. I've never seen it anywhere else tbh.
This is the actual result from the poll -
Which of these is a greater priority for you?
That the United Kingdom leaves the European Union - 36
That the union between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom is maintained - 29
Neither of these are important to me - 22
Don't know - 14
It's a fairly shocking indictment at the number of people that don't care about the NI situation, but has little or bugger all to do with how likely a second referendum would result in a remain vote.
For that, you'd need to look at the question the same polling company (yougov) asked earlier in the month -
In hindsight, do you think Britain was right or wrong to vote to leave the European Union?
Right to leave - 43
Wrong to leave - 45
Don't know - 12
Which of these is a greater priority for you?
That the United Kingdom leaves the European Union - 36
That the union between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom is maintained - 29
Neither of these are important to me - 22
Don't know - 14
It's a fairly shocking indictment at the number of people that don't care about the NI situation, but has little or bugger all to do with how likely a second referendum would result in a remain vote.
For that, you'd need to look at the question the same polling company (yougov) asked earlier in the month -
In hindsight, do you think Britain was right or wrong to vote to leave the European Union?
Right to leave - 43
Wrong to leave - 45
Don't know - 12
Im not surprised that people dont care about NI tbh, as bad as it sounds. Its a long way away from Little England.
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Interesting. You make me think maybe people really have become more materialistic, and it's money first before everything.
Personally I voted remain because I thought the probable economic damage of leaving outweighed any likely advantages. But in other circumstances, if I thought something would make the country safer, fairer, and more caring for instance, then I might well vote for it, even if it did make my children and grandchildren, or myself, poorer.
The context of what he was saying was, his children being poorer was a price worth paying for Brexit.
Yeah, I get that, and it could be a perfectly reasonable view, if he thinks they would be better off in other ways. I don't, but he might.
My post wasn't about him, it was about you, making me think about how materialistic some people are, as you seem unable to consider there might be other factors to life besides money.
Out of interest, what sort of hypothetical scenario could you imagine where British citizens are worse off, financially, but better off in other ways as a result of Brexit? In what other ways would/could they be better off?
I dont think it is materialistic to want to live in a stable and prosperous economic environment.
The EU actually being a sort of autocracy which is if I'm not mistaken one of the main arguments used by anti EU movements.
I get that. I'm just trying to understand how the benefits of being outside that autocracy might translate to the man on the street, despite him being poorer? Are we talking a sort of Cuban situation, where everyone is broke but they have exceptional free healthcare and education? Because that would just about work as a hypothetical scenario but seems incredibly far-fetched with the Tories in power. It's also hard to understand how leaving the EU would make that more likely to happen.
If I'm not mistaken the brexit answer is that UK politicians would be directly accountable to the man on the street. But that's where some people point to the fact that your electoral system leads to a different outcome where like you said the Tories are likely to be in power and won't work for the man on the street; or someone like Blair could get the job.
Basically, you are right.
Not to mention that the EU is hardly the only large, multinational organisation we're in - we're also members of the NATO and UN, both of which obviously impede our ability to act certain ways in certain situations as a nation, irrespective of what the general public may think. Whether those multinational organisations do limit our independence and autonomy as a nation is another discussion but the idea we'll somehow be more free or 'independent' outside the EU strikes me as a fundamentally silly one. For better or worse an interconnected, cooperative world does mean compromising with other countries to a greater extent than before, and leaving the EU isn't suddenly going to sever our need to unite with them in plenty of situations.
Well I tried to make it clear that I wasn't a Brexiter and wasn't talking specifically about Brexit, my point was that not everyone's opinion is dictated by their pocket alone.
Yup the asylum debate is a good example of it, lots of media act as if it was an EU thing when the EU is just respecting the Council of Europe position and the ECHR. Funnily enough, I have never heard anyone suggest that its country should leave the Council of Europe not even the worst politicians on the continent.
Aye - even outside the EU we're going to have a lot of continental obligations to our neighbours on certain issues that involve us making certain sacrifices (whether economic or otherwise) and if we choose not to do that then we'll have to suffer the consequences of becoming increasingly isolated from countries with whom we trade heavily.
It was just the whole “better off but poorer” thing that didn’t make sense to me. It’s not your idea that has me confused, it was the Brexiteer who didn’t mind his grandkids being worse off if that meant Brexit goes ahead.
I know you think it’s materialistic to put economic welfare as the priority but I honestly can’t think of any other way to judge whether or not Brexit has been a good thing? Is it about a redistribution of wealth? His grandkids are poorer but there are a whole bunch of other people’s grandkids better off as a result? That kind of makes sense but, again, it’s hard to see how Brexit could be a means to this end.
Or is there something else more intangible as an upside here? That’s an interesting idea but I’ve no idea what this upside looks like. Hence my questions.
I suppose part of this depends on the size of any effect on economic welfare. To me a couple of percent off GDP is quite doable, 2008 had a bigger impact than that, but 20% would change everything. That possibility swung my decision, and I daresay many more.
Upside? As JP said, where, who by, and how laws are made, and to add to that the level of immigration. I'm sure you'd find more if you read the old referendum thread but it's nearly as bad as this one, so I wouldn't recommend it.
I imagine your average Brexit supporter would cite greater control of immigration. It was the issue which won the referendum. You may legitimately argue what tangible benefits that brings to his or her life but it obviously is important to them to feel more cut off both from EU27 immigration and (probably more importantly) potential future Muslim immigration from the southern shore of the Med. After all, Farage didn’t choose a poster full of Poles for “Breaking Point”.
To put it another way, I don’t think you can understand the appeal of Brexit in materialistic, richer vs poorer terms. That’s why Osbourne’s campaign failed (and why I complacently thought Remain would win fairly comfortably).
But most of the given concerns with regards to immigration were economic - lost jobs, strain on services, wage pressure.
There was undoubtedly xenophobia in amongst that, but those were the main given reasons.
The two issues were definitely connected in people’s minds but I would argue it was more emotive than rational - for example, the UK had (and still has) very low unemployment). Plus the places with most immigration (the cities) were generally pro-Remain. I view it as misdirected anger at post-2008 stagnant/falling living conditions (combined in a toxic cocktail with baby boomers who grew up amid post-WWII stories of British exceptionalism and genuine xenophobes, and all led and manipulated by a very small but hugely influential ultra-Thatcherite clique).
Rees-Mogg threatening May:
"I’m sure that the prime minister knows her history, and I’m sure that she knows how Lord Peel got the repeal of the corn laws through"
Jesus fecking Christ that man is so divorced from the modern world its beyond parody. Yes Jacob, I'm sure the PM was sitting worrying about the events of 1846 while she considered her Brexit strategy. You massive twat.
"I’m sure that the prime minister knows her history, and I’m sure that she knows how Lord Peel got the repeal of the corn laws through"
Jesus fecking Christ that man is so divorced from the modern world its beyond parody. Yes Jacob, I'm sure the PM was sitting worrying about the events of 1846 while she considered her Brexit strategy. You massive twat.
Emily Thornberry has let slip that Labour will "probably" vote for Theresa May's Brexit when the final deal is presented to Parliament.
To recap: A party who's leader has been anti-EU for 30+ years, who whipped MPs to support the government in the commons on hard Brexit, who sacks MPs for opposing a hard Brexit even if they're merely echoing official party policy, and now a senior figure in that party has said they'll probably vote for the Tory Brexit, despite nobody knowing what the hell the deal will even be.
Than feck we've had such strong opposition from Labour on this issue, eh? Else the Tories would really be in trouble.
To recap: A party who's leader has been anti-EU for 30+ years, who whipped MPs to support the government in the commons on hard Brexit, who sacks MPs for opposing a hard Brexit even if they're merely echoing official party policy, and now a senior figure in that party has said they'll probably vote for the Tory Brexit, despite nobody knowing what the hell the deal will even be.
Than feck we've had such strong opposition from Labour on this issue, eh? Else the Tories would really be in trouble.
You've gone beyond ignorance to plain wilful stupidity on this at this point.
I notice you didn't bother pointing out Thornberry's mention of the 6 Brexit tests either, which is strange. You seem to suffer from the same selective vision that has plagued Wenger for all these years.
Supported govt in votes on commons.
Expels members from cabinet who espouse the official party line on Brexit e.g there should be a 'final say' vote'
Senior member of cabinet suggesting the party will vote for the Brexit deal regardless of what it is.
And where are we? Let's pretend that isn't absolutely fecking awful because it might paint Corbyn in a bad light if we do, so that can never be allowed to happen. Instead let's pretend his party has been doing everything he can to stop the Tory Brexit, despite senior allies now letting slip they have every intention to vote for it.
Let's be honest the Corbyn left have no interest in stopping a hard Brexit. They've no real interest in anything much other than sitting around agreeing how awful they each think Tony Blair was.
Expels members from cabinet who espouse the official party line on Brexit e.g there should be a 'final say' vote'
Senior member of cabinet suggesting the party will vote for the Brexit deal regardless of what it is.
And where are we? Let's pretend that isn't absolutely fecking awful because it might paint Corbyn in a bad light if we do, so that can never be allowed to happen. Instead let's pretend his party has been doing everything he can to stop the Tory Brexit, despite senior allies now letting slip they have every intention to vote for it.
Let's be honest the Corbyn left have no interest in stopping a hard Brexit. They've no real interest in anything much other than sitting around agreeing how awful they each think Tony Blair was.
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Good to see you've branched out into another blatant lie, you're getting good at those.
The Bat signal you get whenever someone posts an opinion of Corbyn that isn't fawning must be strong tonight. Guess it has to be given how light it still is outside due to daylight savings.
Your opinion of Corbyn? You've stated two flat out, demonstrable, lies as if they were fact.
The 'cult' stuff you've been chucking around seems to be a bigger case of projection than an IMAX multiplex.