Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

That's all we voted on Remain or Leave. They didn't even ask us what Brexit would mean. There was no vote on soft or hard Brexit.

If i were to apply a similar logic to othr elections, then no leaders of their parties could break faith with impunity. Theresa May and the Tories would be beyond ridicule for the 2017 campaign, for example.

As you understand the concept what does a 'soft Brexit' represent? Moreover, whose hopes could t objectively be saiid to satisfy above all, Remain or Leave?

To be fair I wasn't criticising you specifically, you have your position on Leave like I imagine another Leave voter has his own position. But as @Fully Fledged no one was asked what Brexit would mean, it ends up coming down to what individuals believed and that is where the problem lies in. But sure Remoaners are the problem for pointing out the issues that Brexit could face.

Fair enough. I do however, think it is intellectually dishonest to argue that a 'soft Brexit' is respectful of the result. We both know which side of the debate such an outcome benefits the most. It is tantamount to the 48% having won the vote, in so far as the ideological and political implications are concerned (like a knowin guility person somehow escaping a charge of just verdict).

But, again, how is this compatible with ensuring there's no Irish border?

Apoloogie for not gettingback to your earlier queston on NI, qutie a lot of turnover in here.

The island of Ireland was always going to require some nuance; it already does in other areas of law after all. The idea of NI remaining in the Customs Union was floated some months ago and it didn't strike me as a terrible compromise, not given the strictures of the situation. May should have had the ruling parties as closely involved as possible mind you, so any failre to do so can only reflect rather appallingly on her. Personally, i didn't see the rush to make a declaration at all. If Brussels continued its refusal to discuss trade matters then we walk away for a month or two and let things sit.

What is this hysterical nonsense? How on earth will brexit "destroy" anyone's chances of "ever living or working abroad"? A country reduced to a pile of rubble and people eating rats?

Get a grip man you sound positively rabid.

Jip is a real good egg, but he's fallen off his wall here i do agree. There are Brits working in places outside of the EU everyday.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

Do any Brexiters actually think this is going well?

Considering the competence and likely intent of the other political parties, the Tories are clearly the least worst option.

 

[devilish]

There had been too many lies, populism and posturing by the Brexiters and shit is hitting fan. With Farage retiring from Uk politics the blame will drop flat on the Tory party especially boris, fox, davies and co.

In such circumstances politicians will probably opt for a government meltdown. Hence certainity (ie brexit was stupid and voters were mislead to vote for it) will be replaced with doubt. Rest assured the brexitersthat the problem with brexit wasnt the concept irself but its implementation. That should give a lifeline on their political career and a fighting chance to win government in 2 GE time

Im not an expert of uk/eu politics but i worked with politicians. These gaffes, rebellions and absent mindedness is not incompetence but people forcing themselves out from a sinking ship before it drags them down.

 

[Silva]

 

[GloryHunter07]

Considering the competence and likely intent of the other political parties, the Tories are clearly the least worst option.

So its going well? You are happy with progress / direction?

Genuinely interested as i fear i am in a bit of a Remain echo chamber at times.

 

[Silva]

Q: Did the government undertake an assessment of leaving the customs union before the cabinet took that decision?

Not a quantitative one, no, says Davis.

Q: Isn’t that extraordinary?

No, says Davis. He says the range of different outcomes it too wide. Some free trade agreements have been very effective, and others haven’t. Ministers had to take a judgment. That is what thy did, he says.

hahaha we're so fecked

 

[Untied]

Wherever you stand on Brexit, rational or nuts, Davis cannot stay in his position. This is outrageous.

 

[Sweet Square]

Considering the competence and likely intent of the other political parties, the Tories are clearly the least worst option.

This has aged well.

 

[Steven Seagull]

So its going well? You are happy with progress / direction?

Genuinely interested as i fear i am in a bit of a Remain echo chamber at times.

Most leave voters seem frustrated it’s taken 18 months to slowly edge towards the only viable option of the Efta/EEA agreement. We’ll get there in the end but it’s alarming the amount of people in government and media who can’t grasp the basics of any of this.

 

[Silva]

The Irish government is willing to have clarifying text added to the Brexit Ireland border proposal if it will help Theresa May get the deal over the line.

No requests for changes to the deal offering “regulatory alignment” between Northern Ireland and the Republic have been made since Monday according to reports in today’s Irish Independent, which cite sources suggesting conciliatory moves in Dublin.

This involves the possibility of additional wording guaranteeing the Brexit border deal will not undermine the integrity of the United Kingdom.

“We have concrete evidence of an agreement between the taoiseach and prime minister, which was endorsed by the presidents of European Council and European Commission. We absolutely feel we can’t budge one inch,” a source central to the Irish negotiation team said, according to the paper.

But they added that so long as the meaning of the text didn’t change, “a line clarifying that the agreement does not undermine the integrity of the United Kingdom could be considered”.

The DUP have raised concerns that Ireland is using Brexit as a tool to promote a United Ireland.

More excellent news for remoaners as government inches closer to making no changes.

 

[Silva]

It is unbelievable that these long-trumpeted impact assessments don’t even exist, meaning the government has no idea what their Brexit plans will do to the country.

Ministers must now urgently undertake these impact assessments and ensure people are given the facts.

Whether it’s through incompetence or insincerity, David Davis has been misleading parliament from the start.

He is being completely blasé about the threat Brexit poses to our NHS, economy and young people.

The utter shambles this government is making of Brexit shows why the public must be given the final say with a chance to stay in the EU.

 

[Kentonio]

I think you are going to be sorely disappointed. Say what you want about the Tories but they know how to get into power.

Until 2010 they couldn't buy an election. After the dust settles on austerity, I'm expecting another period in the wilderness for these assholes. You can't get away with just being nasty for years in UK politics.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

So its going well? You are happy with progress / direction?

Genuinely interested as i fear i am in a bit of a Remain echo chamber at times.

It didn't start well, not with the time they had to prepare the initial basis for an agreement. I would cite the citizens' rights confusion in particular: even with the ECJ off the tble from our PoV, we ought to have made some guarantees to thsoe already resident here (unilaterally if so required). Additionally, the Government should have identitied a number of schemes for which we hold continued interst and given then an amount we'd be prepared to pay. I'd have been more forthwright so far as the divorce bill went though, as the two sides must be in possession of the same flippin data. Were i to sense that they doubted our conviction, a holiday from negotations would be announced.

The general election was a fiasco of course, an event which must be looked upon as damaging to the process.

So all a bit too mealy-mouthed for my liking, but you'd trust the other political parties even less.

 

[C3Pique]

Really? You trust the Tories the most after this fiasco?

 

[unchanged_lineup]

Feckin hell lads, this is insane today.

 

[Kentonio]

Just caught up on the Davis debacle. What. The. feck.

Surely he has to be shown in contempt of parliament for this?! Although I notice that little rat Reese-Mogg appears to have abandoned his position and gone back to supporting the government line, so it'll be interesting to see how many Torys continue to stand up for parliamentary primacy.

 

[Adisa]

hahaha we're so fecked

 

[Adisa]

Pretty sure they've done the assessment.
It's just too politically sensitive to release.
Davis must not be allowed to get away with this.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

Really? You trust the Tories the most after this fiasco?

As a Leave voter, someone who believes that this seperation is right for the country over the long term, how oculd i possibly trust any of the others to bring such about? They are either Brussels' loyalists or more confused than the incumbent players on the scene.

 

[Kentonio]

Even the Daily Mail are losing their shit over this. If Davis survives the week it'll be a miracle.

 

[C3Pique]

As a Leave voter, someone who believes that this seperation is right for the country over the long term, how oculd i possibly trust any of the others to bring such about? They are either Brussels' loyalists or more confused than the incumbent players on the scene.

It's about more than Brexit mate. Sole governance by Boris Johnson, Liam Fox, David Davies, Priti Patel, IDS and co sounds good to you does it?

They are proven liars, cheats and general cnuts who all put personal gain before the good of the country. And yet you still believe that the Brexit they seek will benefit the country long term, despite the fact they have had 18 months to come up with a shred of evidence that it will and have come up short.

It's beyond belief frankly.

 

[Kentonio]

Favourite internet comment so far..

"I would summarise David Davis' evidence to the Brexit Committee as:

"My dog would have eaten my homework, if I had done it. And if I had a dog."

 

[Adisa]

They take us for fools.

 

[JPRouve]

Pretty sure they've done the assessment.
It's just too politically sensitive to release.
Davis must not be allowed to get away with this.

Of course they did. Numerous administrations need them and are autonomous enough to not wait for politicians. The chances are that there are half a dozen of analysis.

 

[SteveJ]

'Enemies of the people'.

 

[Pexbo]

Juvenile but made me chuckle.

 

[Smores]

The more you read of his explanations to the commitee the worse it gets.
"I'm not a fan of economic models because they have all proven wrong" yeah no point bothering then

He's going to be held in contempt for sure but even May should be implicated in this.

 

[sullydnl]

Pretty sure they've done the assessment.
It's just too politically sensitive to release.
Davis must not be allowed to get away with this.

They'd have to have.



If other countries were prepping to that extent before the referendum even happened then there's no way the UK didn't do extensive assesment. Even accepting that these politicians are inept, they can't force everyone else to be inept too. He's talking shite.

 

[GloryHunter07]

It didn't start well, not with the time they had to prepare the initial basis for an agreement. I would cite the citizens' rights confusion in particular: even with the ECJ off the tble from our PoV, we ought to have made some guarantees to thsoe already resident here (unilaterally if so required). Additionally, the Government should have identitied a number of schemes for which we hold continued interst and given then an amount we'd be prepared to pay. I'd have been more forthwright so far as the divorce bill went though, as the two sides must be in possession of the same flippin data. Were i to sense that they doubted our conviction, a holiday from negotations would be announced.

The general election was a fiasco of course, an event which must be looked upon as damaging to the process.

So all a bit too mealy-mouthed for my liking, but you'd the trust the other political parties even less.

Its depressing that this is the best negotiation we can pull off.

 

[SteveJ]

Its depressing that this is the best negotiation we can pull off.

They're like Liverpool's transfer committee, chaired by Peter Ridsdale.

 

[horsechoker]

Juvenile but made me chuckle.

 

[FlawlessThaw]

Fair enough. I do however, think it is intellectually dishonest to argue that a 'soft Brexit' is respectful of the result. We both know which side of the debate such an outcome benefits the most. It is tantamount to the 48% having won the vote, in so far as the ideological and political implications are concerned (like a knowin guility person somehow escaping a charge of just verdict).

There is nothing intellectually dishonest about it as there is nothing to be dishonest about other than your own assumptions. A soft Brexit is still a Brexit so the 52% get what they want as well. Reality is, it's a vanilla option and given we have had a 50-50 split here pretty much, a vanilla option is the one that makes sense. (you would never fully convict a man because only 52% of the jury was convinced of his guilt)

 

[Untied]

“Good journalist, unfairly criticised”



Calls IDS, Mogg and Bone well organised

 

[GloryHunter07]

David Davis is a joke. Labour needs to nail him on this.

 

[Oscie]

David Davis is a joke. Labour needs to nail him on this.

Their position still seems to be exit of CU and SM. Though his MPs would rather this change the leadership position is hard Brexit in all but name.

 

[Baxter]

Still, doesn't matter a jot to the brexiteers. We should still 'get out now' or 'walk away, no deal'.

This genuinely shouldn't be allowed to go on like this. Leaving is bad enough, but with these clowns in charge? We're fecked.

 

[GloryHunter07]

Their position still seems to be exit of CU and SM. Though his MPs would rather this change the leadership position is hard Brexit in all but name.

He has been lying to Parliament, it doesnt matter what their position is!

 

[Paul the Wolf]

• Hammond confirms cabinet has not had a specific discussion about the final Brexit outcome it wants, the so-called “end state”.

Beyond words

 

[Aboutreika18]

How can anyone say with a straight face that the people in charge of this mess are competent?

 

[Rightnr]

To be honest, these are good developments. I was afraid it would all come out too late but the scale of the incompetence is such that people are more likely to notice it now as opposed to a drip feeding of bad news.