Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
- Thread starter Silva
- Start date
yes- it wasn't cost effective, as EU migrants are net contributors to the country, and enforcing this would be expensive. Obviously it's a political can that was kicked down the road until we got to this point.
Fair immigration for a start!
jokes aside, yes, I want a very qualified nurse from Indonesia or Australia or Nepal or wherever to be have a very good chance to coming (see, I'm still a Brit at heart) to the UK, rather than an unqualified person from any old EU country and treating it like their own.
If they come from Indonesia or Nepal they may not speak English. What's this treating it like their own bit?
Another point which is slightly puzzling, the Uk government and Brexiters as a whole only want qualified people with high salaries to do the well paid jobs and don't want people who earn under £18k a year to be in the UK.
This begs the question, who will be doing the lower paid jobs, cleaners, fruit-pickers, shelf-stackers etc, presume this is what is planned for the 1.4 million unemployed, the ones who voted for Brexit because they had such a terrible life because of the EU. They won't be able to have the better jobs because immigrants would have taken them all.
I agree with you that the word 'source' is written at the bottom of that page, I'm less in agreement that they've actually sourced their claims though. Where, precisely, can I find the information on digital.nhs.uk (which I can only assume is what they are referencing)?
We'll get on to the fact that your tweet doesn't address the issue later.
Fukk me, a tory voter. Austerity was not the answer and has not worked. I heard on the telly today that uk asked the imf for cash with a debt/gdp ratio of 50 odd per cent, that is now 88%, where did all the savings go?
It's up there with Jacob Rees-Mogg becoming the voice of populism in terms of how batshit crazy the whole thing is.
So if only 650,000 voted for Brexit because they believed this particular lie but would have voted Remain if they had been told the truth the result would have been a Remain win. Then we have all the dozens of other lies, scary isn't it.
God no, the party is such a mess from top to bottom. I'll stick with my good local MP, who happens to be Labour, as long as I live here.I assume you'll not be swinging back to the Tories again anytime soon if he gets in.
JRM's voting record is odious, yet as with Boris, the masses seem to view him as a benign eccentric clown.
Steady on!Give it a year or two and you'll be out campaigning with your red rosette!
Normally I refrain from posting as I find the level of debate somewhat less than informative. Just had to stick my head above the parapet on this occasion however simply because these two passages did amuse me so. Simple things please simple minds so my mother used to tell me but thats another story.
My amusement stems from the assumption that only one side lied to the population during the referendum debate. Or if thats too strong that one side, namely those advocating a vote to leave, lied more than the other. If that is so then I must have been asleep during the whole campaign for whilst I am fully aware of the untruths told by those urging me to vote leave I am sure I dreamt that those imploring me to vote remain were just as bad. Or am I mistaken that the Treasury issued reports saying that half a million jobs would be destroyed within 2 years of a vote to leave. That economic growth over the same period would fall between 3 and 6 percent. That the value of my house would be less. And were these reports not backed up by outpourings from such august institutions as the World Bank, the IMF and the OECD who also forecast that there would be an immediate sell off of assets in the UK. All of these so called experts predicting Armageddon. Then to top it all Mr Obama was trundled out to sing the same tune along with our then Chancellor asserting that there would have to be an emergency budget.
Yet to date where are we? Unemployment continues to fall. GDP is still rising. House prices remain on an upward trend and the Stock Market is as bullish as ever.
So now what. The cry goes up that the UK is still in the EU and its just a matter of time. Well slap me in the belly with a wet cod. The UK was always going to remain in the EU for two years after triggering Article 50. I would have expected the experts to have known that. Then again perhaps, they are not as expert as they say they are.
And as for the theory that its just a matter of time. That Armageddon still awaits but its around the corner. Well forgive me for suggesting that to expound such a view conjures in the mind those who forecast the end of the world. It does not happen on the said day so we go away and make a fresh prediction that it will still occur maybe tomorrow.
No wonder we lost the argument to remain is all I can say.
There was not one jot or tittle said that was positive then and no-one is saying anything positive now. The EU itself is not helping matters at times when some of its officials appear to be all for punishing the UK. Is Project Fear all we really have to offer? It very much seems like it. When folks are in pain, and there are many in the UK who are in pain, simply suggesting that they have to grin and bear it for the greater good will never cut the mustard. Folks have to be given hope. To date the remain campaign gave and still gives none.
predicting doom isn't quite the same as a propaganda campaign based on horse-shit
Of course there were exaggerations on both sides but it's the degree of lies on one side that far outweighed the other. If anyone believed the plagues of locusts, WW3 or North Korea then proves even more the point that this should never have been put to the people. Believing that immigrants were responsible for the Uk's problems was easily more believable to Brexit voters.
I didn't say I agreed with the IMF predictions either, I still stick to what I think will happen and so far has happened exactly as I thought. If you think leaving the EU with no deal will not cause major economic problems to the UK then I presume you will still be amused when that does happen because it will unless the Uk leave in name only which I also think will be the case.
What the experts mainly miscalculated was that the UK would take 9 months to trigger A50 so they don't leave until 33 months after the referendum - but even then they want a transitional deal so if they get that, it will prolong it to 57 months at least - is it then they fall off the cliff or do they get some other deal.
The length of time all this takes will affect the predictions.
So if the Remain campaign offers the status quo, the Leave campaign offered what in its place - to be even worse off, you can understand people wanting to change for something better but not to want a leap into the unknown which has a 90% chance of being worse.
In which way is the EU punishing the UK, ridiculous, the EU has rules, the UK wishes to leave , go but respect the rules - it's very simple but the government don't seem to understand this and no they can't have their cake and eat it.
Unemployment is down because of innovation in 'self employment' and changes in the benefits system- although this is causing underemployment
Growth is stunted below where other EU nations are, and is being propped up by consumer debt.
Inflation is at 3%, only so low because manufacturers are eating some of the costs in the short term and oil prices are remaining low, food inflation is far higher so the impact is real for low earners. The Bank of England is allowing inflation to stay high in the short term because the economy is fragile with consumer debt.
Growth is stunted below where other EU nations are, and is being propped up by consumer debt.
Inflation is at 3%, only so low because manufacturers are eating some of the costs in the short term and oil prices are remaining low, food inflation is far higher so the impact is real for low earners. The Bank of England is allowing inflation to stay high in the short term because the economy is fragile with consumer debt.
The Bank of England are presumably holding out praying that a detailed description of the terms of Brexit can be released so the risk factor in Sterling is reduced and the currency can strengthen above the current level. At that point increasing the rates may actually encourage international investment in the UK and further strengthen the £ and lower inflation back to normal levels.
A substantial number of unemployed people suddenly finding jobs and being fit to work as their income leeching off the state came undone?!
indeed
Wish I could have such a Panglossian view of life before the shit really hits the fan. Predictions, be they sports, economic or political ones are always prone to inaccuracy, but if you don't think Brexit will have enormous economic repercussions, at the very least in the short to medium term, then you are hopeful at best, deluded more likely.
One thing I've yet to seen any Brexiter give a rational response to is the whole issue surrounding the Irish border. Obviously been discussed but it could have potentially massive ramifications for the Good Friday agreement which opens a whole can of worms.
You would have thought they would have the answer already worked out beforehand because if was obviously a problem as pointed out long before the referendum.
Paz, the problem there is that what seems like common sense with regards to the economy is actually completely counter productive. We tend to see government spending like a household or company budget and assume that yes when times are hard you tighten your belt. When it comes to government spending though, this is absolutely the wrong thing to do. Government doesn't just react to the economy, government is a major influencer of the economy. In hard times, companies are less likely to invest and the public have less money to spend so the economy shrinks. If government also cut spending, then they contribute to that economic decline. More people losing their jobs or having to move onto lower paid or part time jobs, less disposible income, less spending on projects which would incentivize companies to invest.
When the economy is struggling thats the time when government should be opening the purse not closing it. When things are going well we should be storing away money ready for the next time we need to inject new energy into the economy, but unfortunately the tories want to cut when times are hard, and Labouor never got their heads around the idea of saving when things are prosperous. Austerity though was absolutely the wrong direction to take, which is why the Tories financial predictions have been proved so very, very wrong time after time.
Totally understand where you are coming from.
I'm not sure either of us can be so definitively for or against the approach though, there's a debate in the wider world about this.
But I understand what you are saying and ofcourse perhaps I (and fellow 'austerity when shit starts financially collapsing ideologs') are incorrect.
Surely the answer is somewhere in between though...
Please, this implicates Labour etc too.
It's been a collective clusterfeck from both sides. I guess we have Crossrail, sceptical on H2. I'm sure everyone feels the same about a certain road in their area, but if they resurface Shepherd's Bush Road again, with all the delays it caused, I may go all Falling Down.
The last 2/3 pages of this thread with posts of interesting debate, but spot the odd-one-out.
Re: German elections
MERKEL SAYS IMMIGRATION WAS MAIN STICKING POINT: RTRS
Must be a deluded racist nation too, eh?
MERKEL SAYS IMMIGRATION WAS MAIN STICKING POINT: RTRS
Must be a deluded racist nation too, eh?
You've missed the point yet again. The Germans take issue with non-EU migration. The UK takes issue with allowing people from nations who are closer are to it culturally because it's 'unfair' or rather use that as a convenient excuse.
Well obviously, you skipped history class in school didn't you?
Britain could slash environmental and safety standards 'a very long way' after Brexit, Tory MP Jacob Rees-Mogg says
The MP said standards that were 'good enough for India' could be good enough for the UK
Brexit: the ultimate revenge for colonialism
The MP said standards that were 'good enough for India' could be good enough for the UK
Brexit: the ultimate revenge for colonialism
I have yet to hear a realistic advantage of Brexit for the country as a whole.
If I remember correctly we applied (not voted) to join the EEC 3 times and were eventually successful when France stopped blocking us. We then later voted to stay (not join) by a huge majority. And things have only (inevitably) evolved slightly since then (mainly to the UK's advantage).
A politically and economically stable Europe is about peace and prosperity therough creating more and bigger markets. It makes huge economic sense for the richer countries to subsidies the poorer ones.
Few will admit to being racists. Thatcher got in repeatedly but not many would admit to voting for her.
And leaving will place a huge strain on our public services, especially health and old age care as a hugely disproportionate number of workers in many of these arease are from other EU countries. So we will either have huge labor shortfalls (100k people per year by best estimate) or we will have to bring people in from outside the UK. The same as before only in a far more complex and expensive way.
Economic stability? Leaving will utterly screw our economic stability. We had far greater deal making power as part of the EU. We just aren't that important any more. And within 10 years of leaving we will have much less to export as the banana republic exchange rate the pounds will dive to (making the cheap TV's we love so much very expensive in world terms) as many companies have set up here because we are part of the EU - we will lose lots of manufaturing capacity because we aren'tbig enough on our owm for may of them to want to continue to manufacture here - they will move to somewhere within the EU.
It wasn't at all complex. The arrogant idiot threw it as a bone to keep the far right of his party happy just assuming we would stay. Referendums should only be for constitutional issues, not used as political toys.
The Leave campaign just made it up as they went along on almost everything with much just outright lies for political ends. And the remain campaign did a rubbish job but was essentially honest.
Boris planned to run a heroic losing campaign and get a political boost from it. He was totally shocked we voted to leave. Just another posh buffoon playing with our future. Give is just plain evil in the Trump sense.
All? No. A significant proportion? Probably, even if not card carrying storm troopers. But in a more general sense it is that long term failure of politicians to do anything other than act in their own interests and the interests of the top end of town that has allowed the self destructive politics of Brexit and Trump to flourish.
What we need is less despicable politicians. Kill this lot with fire and replace them with non-lizards.
Ahhh, nothing like a skewed statistic to back up the Brexiteer. These numbers mean nothing in terms if the reality. Yes there are more EU doctors, nurses, junior doctors etc. working in the NHS since the vote but that would include people already here finishing their studies and training (takes a few years to be a medical proffessional you know...) and BEFORE Brexit has even happened and those numbers are wayyyyyyyyyy lower than what it was, or needed in this country when there’s a shortfall of 30,000.
Maybe the Torygraph can help you understand better although reading some of the standard rubbish in your posts in this thread I don’t even have hope.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/02/number-eu-nurses-registering-work-britain-falls-90-per-cent/
Also no disrespect to nurses in Indonesia or anywhere else outside the EU but do you even know the main reason EU nurses and doctors can come and work here is because of the unification of the education standard which exists within the union?
Do you even know that diplomas of the absloute vast majority of countries outside the EU are not recognised by the UK?
Do you understand that absolutely nothing stops any qualified person outside the EU applying to come and work here?
You claim to have done research but all you have spouted is UKIP and right wing rubbish.
Last edited:
Take back control.
Cost of Brexit for workers is a week’s pay, says report
“Even before Brexit occurs, the increase in inflation caused by the Leave vote has already hurt households. Our results provide compelling evidence that, so far, households are paying an economic price for voting to leave the EU.”
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/...-workers-is-a-weeks-pay-says-report-2zvnbk065
Cost of Brexit for workers is a week’s pay, says report
“Even before Brexit occurs, the increase in inflation caused by the Leave vote has already hurt households. Our results provide compelling evidence that, so far, households are paying an economic price for voting to leave the EU.”
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/...-workers-is-a-weeks-pay-says-report-2zvnbk065
Jesus Christ. Link added.Britain could slash environmental and safety standards 'a very long way' after Brexit, Tory MP Jacob Rees-Mogg says
The MP said standards that were 'good enough for India' could be good enough for the UK
Brexit: the ultimate revenge for colonialism
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-workers-rights-jacob-rees-mogg-a7459336.html
Last edited:
I always find it strange that more isnt made of the fact that it was the UK that pushed hardest for the EU enlargement that lies at the core of the problems we now have with the EU and made us want to leave. Before that it was a club of countries of much more comparable economic levels, meaning there was much less reason for people within the block to migrate from one place to another en masse looking for work. You would get people moving around for specific jobs of course, but that would be far more evenly spread. It was when we invited the much poorer former Soviet states in that you got this massive spike in migration and while I believe that was an economic net positive for the UK, clearly there was a cultural and political cost that urban liberals like myself - the "anywheres" - never fully appreciated.
As a country, we pushed hard for changes that a lot of other countries - like France - resisted, and then once the implications of those changes started to really be felt we walked away, leaving the others to wrestle with the problems themselves.
I actually think whether the UK leaves or not (I assume it will) the EU will end up addressing the issue of free movement anyway, given how toxic it has become across the whole EU. So it could end up being a situation where the UK leaves and then the EU passes the reforms that would have kept it in, but too late to make any difference to us.
As a country, we pushed hard for changes that a lot of other countries - like France - resisted, and then once the implications of those changes started to really be felt we walked away, leaving the others to wrestle with the problems themselves.
I actually think whether the UK leaves or not (I assume it will) the EU will end up addressing the issue of free movement anyway, given how toxic it has become across the whole EU. So it could end up being a situation where the UK leaves and then the EU passes the reforms that would have kept it in, but too late to make any difference to us.
Last edited:
At last a considered opinion well said. Sadly I find myself thinking along similar lines. Like many middle class folk (which I reckon encompasses most of the pro Eu faction on this board) I have done well from EU membership and even the financial crisis led to my assets increasing as it did for the majority of folk with assets. Ridiculously low and false interest rates are indeed a real boon. Trouble was that like most I ignored the poor sods that the system left behind as those on both sides of the fence continue to do. Its not just the Brexiters who seem to not care a toss for those less fortunate than themselves almost all those who advocate remain are just as much up their own backsides.
Last edited:
What country is it as toxic in as the UK though?
I mean Germany is the 2nd most popular immigration destination in the world after the US, they don't really seem to hate immigrants, do they? The Swedes recently accepted 1,000,000+ refugees (which has come with problems, but the Swede's being the awesome people they are seem to have largely accepted them), etc.
Here in Ireland a country with almost entirely emigration to having 15% of our population (that's more per capita than anywhere else in the EU I believe) as immigrants during the Celtic Tiger (and it's back into net immigration again since the recovery) and we don't hate it. Sure you get the odd racist old prick who can't stand them (taxi drivers, usually), but mostly we accept that it was a very important part of our growth and wealth, and without the Pole's we would've never filled up all the jobs we had in our booming economy. We certainly don't hate the Pole's now either, we've accepted them pretty well, and this is a country known for being notoriously backwards up until around 20 years ago.
I think, maybe, the difference between most countries (us included) and the UK is that the UK has always been rich and emigration has never really been a thing, whereas throughout our history we've had mass emigration (as recently as the crash in 2009-2013) so we're probably more accepting of migrants coming our way now as a result. But that's a guess!
You have to understand that the EU will never address the freedom of movement of people because “addressing” it to the appeasement of those concerned only means eastern Europeans shouldn’t have the right to move freely within the EU, and they are full members with full equal rights within the EU so wouldn’t be idiotic enough to vote for and ratify that.
Well to be honest I have no direct experience of this toxicity outside the UK because I have never lived elsewhere in Europe, so I am going on what I read. But what I read is that it is pretty bloody toxic all over. You cite Germany, is it not the case that anti immigration sentiment is rising fast in Germany as a response to Merkel opening the borders to refugees? Again, I dont want to make out I know much about this first hand but this is what I have been reading. They have a big problem, OK the AfD is still a relatively young party / movement, but it has been gaining ground pretty quickly. Itll be interesting to see how the next election goes over there.
Similarly in places like Sweden. Again, here there is a disconnect between what the government - which seems to be very liberal - is doing, and the way that is being perceived by the general public. It seems they might be going through a similar stage to the one the UK went through in the 90s when we first started seeing a lot of Poles coming to the UK and UKIP started to gain a lot more traction. Obviously its quite different for a number of reasons, not least that they are not dealing with Europeans so much as Africans and Arabs, with the added cultural implications of that. Also, in the 90s the economy was in a much better place to absorb this kind of influx, now it is seen to be compounding the problems of the poorest sections of society. It is at these times of economic stress that this kind of scapegoating that you currently see of immigrants takes off.
You have the rise of the National Front in France, you have increasingly intolerant attitudes in places like the Netherlands - even if Wilders doesnt seem to be able to capitalise on it in quite the same way. And that is before you get into the attitudes in places like Poland and Hungary. Again, I know very little about these countries really, but it does seem there is a lot of push back from them on this free movement issue, particularly when it comes to EU efforts to share out the immigrants across the block, to relieve pressure on Italy and Greece, where most of them arrive in the EU. I think a lot of the rest of the EU is slightly burying its head in the sand at the moment when it comes to what is going on in Italy and Greece, those countries have problems that have to be resolved at some point.
Or you leave medically incapacitated people with zero income. When you stop classifying sick people as unemployed they don't magically get a job.