So you dont think we will have to accept free movement as part of our renegotiation with the EU?
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I think it's called selective racism.
UK have a national debt of about £1.56 trillion, the annual cost of servicing the national debt (interest payments) is about £43 billion. If we say that due to lover credit ratings the interest on the debt will rise with 0.5% it will increase the cost with about £8 billion annually. That is the same amount that someone in here said you guys paid net to the EU.
You can trace it back to 9/11. Then the interventions in The Middle East; to the War in Syria; to the rise of ISIS and the migrant crisis.
I think Osama Bin Laden would have been very pleased with this domino effect.
I am not pleased with the result as I voted remain for economic reasons. It has happened though so we have to look to the future. I can't see a reason to let this make me depressed when the outlook is unclear.
Don't talk in facts the leavers only deal in blatant lies
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I thought he'd hang on, like Corbyn seems to be doing, but ultimately it was right for Cameron to fall on his sword. You can't really have a Prime minister negotiating a deal for a reason he doesn't believe in.
We don't yet know who is going to be chosen, but whoever it is, he/she cant do a lot worse than Cameron.
I keep refreshing the petition page every five minutes, just to watch the number shoot up by about 10k each time.
I am not a leaver but if you want to play that game a leaver could say that they would rather pay the money in debt for three to five years than to the EU for the rest of time.
While I agree with the petition, a change in the statue quo should require a clear majority, it won't do any good. Some 15 million people or so voted to remain, 600-700k of those people signing a petition isn't that surprising or game-changing. Even if you got every single one of them to sign it it wouldn't make a difference.
Want if a few countries now follow our lead, not France, but Holland, Austria, and Finland maybe, would this put us in a position of strength all of a sudden? or still wallowing in the pits of despair as everyone seems so keen to ram home right now.
Good post
You know that if UK gets the same deal as Norway/Switzerland, it will pay again as much money as it pays right now (in fact, slightly more), won't have any say in European parliament, and will have to accept the freedom of movement. While on the years that deal has to be agreed, a lot of companies will leave UK and the pound will go down. Neither of the money lost there (from pound inflation and companies leaving) will come back when the deal is agreed.
Good luck on getting a deal which is better than that. The Germans said quite clearly yesterday that it isn't going to happen. And good luck on having a good economy without free access to your biggest economical partner.
And that is just one potential cost of this decision, If company's start moving factories like the Nissan factory mentioned in here and the Financial firms move their offices that number will start to look very small. Purely from an economical viewpoint this decision has to be up there with the most idiotic ever made.
Yes, finally got my email confirmation link at midnight.
Soros says the pound will lose the 20% and will match the euro
What is stopping the leave voters from doing the same if it had been the other way round? will people just keep petitioning if the votes don't go their way?
There could be a few leave voters have signed that petition if they have come to the conclusion they were lied to.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ent...icid=maing-grid7|uk|dl3|sec1_lnk2&pLid=473218
The thick people in this country...
The thick people in this country...
The problem with the petition is that you don't know how many people there are signing it who are eligible to vote.
I would propose independence for Scotland, with capital London.
Le Monde diplomatique: Why the far right is on the rise
Of course the issue we have now is that most of remain voters just have no interest or fight in making things work outside the EU, many will happily fold their arms, wait for the doomsday to happen, and and say I told you so, we need everyone to pull together now for a positive outcome, but I just can't see it happening.
If the vote was the other way around the outers would have got over things very quickly and life would have moved on, it's going to be tough enough if everyone pulls together, but without it you have to be a little fearful.
If the vote was the other way around the outers would have got over things very quickly and life would have moved on, it's going to be tough enough if everyone pulls together, but without it you have to be a little fearful.
Yes I do know. I posted to that effect long before the referendum took place warning of the lies around immigration etc.
Regarding the 'Germans', if you are referring to the gaggle of egotistical babies that head up the EU I am not too concerned about them. They will be brought into line by real economic forces like the IMF and powerful business lobbies that keep them wealthy.
No the deal won't be as good but it frees us up to pursue deals with other countries outwith the EU, considering our business has been heading in that direction quite profoundly in recent years.
There will be some years of pain that I didn't want but we have to get on with it.
Quite possibly.
I know its more exciting to cry doom but this isn't absolute certainty and it's impacted is limited to a few firms really. I think all but one of our cross-border clients already have a EU presence.
There's a good probability that the only regulation amended will be the bankers bonus cap and thus we'd apply for equivalency. That still leaves some risk so I wouldn't be suprised if they still moved that business but we'll see.
Personally I think that would have a far bigger impact on GDP than people's lives.
The articles that put all the Greece crisis in the hand of EU/Germany mean feck all in my opinion.
Greece for 50 years had all the benefits of western countries, despite that they weren't working. Thousands of people were getting wages without working, many more were working a few hours per day. Of course that the heaven wasn't going to last forever and sooner or later it was going to crash. 2 generations lived as good (in fact better) than Germans or Italians despite they were producing feck all. Now that it is time for them to become less lazy, it is all the fault of mean Angela Merkel.
Some of the critiques are pathetic. Greece is forced to make the retirement age 67 instead of 65. Shock horror, the same is on Italy and in many other EU countries. They aren't supposed to spend more than they have. Jesus wept, it is the same as in any other country of the world. They are economically the strongest country in Balkan, not because they work harder, but because they joined EU sooner. Now that they have to live a bit worse than before (but better than virtually all neighbors from Albania to Croatia and Romania) it is the end of the world.
I posted this in the how will Brexit affect outiders soemthing or other thread but feel it has relevance here.
After all the Hubbub has died down, in the end I actually see it affecting people very little. We're now going to be going into deal with the USA, Canada and the EU who have been working for the last 10 years to get these deals done. There's no way we can go into these deals without freedom of movement. I see us still being a country of free labour movement across Europe and holidaying etc will stay the same. The only difference being you may get charges for using the NHS and will be locked out of benefits to appease the UKIP'ers.
Gove and Johnson and the people behind them couldn't give 2 shits about UKIP or immigrants or the working class, all they were truly after in this vote was the ability to negotiate in these deals from outside of Brussels influence and get a bigger slice of the pie. That pie being the UK can now be the gateway country for dealing into the EU without having to spend 10 years negotiating deals or wait for Brussels approval. This is all about money, it always is and always has been. Their dream is for the UK to become one giant cargo port to move freight from all over the world into the EU.
Article 50 has also just become the greatest negotiation tool ever invented. The EU has stated they will only conclude trade agreements once Britain is out, which is why they just requested we invoke article 50 ASAP so they can get on with the mammoth negotiations with the USA and get the deal finished. We can delay invoking for as long as we want.
After all the Hubbub has died down, in the end I actually see it affecting people very little. We're now going to be going into deal with the USA, Canada and the EU who have been working for the last 10 years to get these deals done. There's no way we can go into these deals without freedom of movement. I see us still being a country of free labour movement across Europe and holidaying etc will stay the same. The only difference being you may get charges for using the NHS and will be locked out of benefits to appease the UKIP'ers.
Gove and Johnson and the people behind them couldn't give 2 shits about UKIP or immigrants or the working class, all they were truly after in this vote was the ability to negotiate in these deals from outside of Brussels influence and get a bigger slice of the pie. That pie being the UK can now be the gateway country for dealing into the EU without having to spend 10 years negotiating deals or wait for Brussels approval. This is all about money, it always is and always has been. Their dream is for the UK to become one giant cargo port to move freight from all over the world into the EU.
Article 50 has also just become the greatest negotiation tool ever invented. The EU has stated they will only conclude trade agreements once Britain is out, which is why they just requested we invoke article 50 ASAP so they can get on with the mammoth negotiations with the USA and get the deal finished. We can delay invoking for as long as we want.
already with the excuses. the ones who backed it and campaigned for it should be showing the way and showing the remainers why this is good and how we benefit. if i implement a change at work i have to be the one to drive it and sweep others up along. i can't just expect them to have the same enthusiasm for it. so far i'm just supposed to feel more british today and free and supposed to ignore what seems economical suicide for the country on the whole.
looks to me the leavers are waiting for the remainers to do all the work and then turn around and blame them for not doing it properly. "our eu money is gone, where are the jobs in sunderland now? those feckers in the capital don't care about us."
Rank nonsense.
On the contrary, there will be tons of work to do and most of it will be done by people who did not vote Leave and will now be trying their damnedest not to feck the economy up. It will likely work too; we will restore our free trade agreement and we will have more cuts and austerity. It will be an awful time for those without - and they will blame it on the politicians. But this time, it will really not be their fault.
agreed. juding by the demographics it looks to be the people that take the most out of the country wanted this the most and now they want the ones that put the most in, who didn't want this, to bail them out, as usual, but after taking a massive turd on our lawns this time.
Of course there is a very strong argument that this whole thing was caused by horrendous mismanagement of investment banks by a small number of people in the city, and that there is something fairly disgusting about those same people pouring scorn on those who bailed them out.
Just seen some old bloke on the telly, in his 80s, with tears in his eyes.
"I've got my country back! "
We're fecked
"I've got my country back! "
We're fecked
A test like that is extremely vulnerable to exploitation and manipulation by one party or the other would be my first objection to an idea like that. Exactly who would be in charge of this? How do you decide which question to ask? How would you avoid organised cheating? It's a silly, dangerous and undemocratic idea in my opinion.
The democracy of today is the best solution we've got I believe, even if disturbingly large part of the population are a bunch of ignorant wankers playing into the hands of populist leaders who manipulate voters, spread hatred and usually live in some kinda ideal non-existent past where there apparently were no issues to deal with. I'd say we need to look at the short term thinking of politicians and the way a small elected powerful elite seems to more and more lose touch with the general public and key issues. Many seem to be more occupied with consolidating their own power and position than the good of the people they're supposed to govern.
I'm not sure about how this works in the UK, but in Norway we've got a large number of key politicians in all the major parties who've never known the world outside politics and the parliament - they've never had a normal job in their lives but have been groomed since their youth through the party ranks. It's worrying.
that's the problem. people have a right to feel aggrieved. some areas have been shockingly under funded. some have been ignored. some have had no voice. why choose this referendum to protest that though? there was a general election before where they could have actually made a difference and voted for change.
Paul Krugman (New York Times): Brexit: The Morning After
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/20...dit_ty_20160624&nl=opinion&nlid=62747722&_r=1
Krugman reckons:
1. Cameron is an idiot. (Harsh but I see his point)
2. People are overreacting with their economic doom predictions. (Yes, obviously)
3. The EU project is in serious trouble. (Again yes, obviously)
Krugman reckons:
1. Cameron is an idiot. (Harsh but I see his point)
2. People are overreacting with their economic doom predictions. (Yes, obviously)
3. The EU project is in serious trouble. (Again yes, obviously)
If that happens and the EU starts to collapse then we will be in a position of relative strength, but the world will be so fecked it won't really matter.
If Blair, Brown and Cameron aren't simply not good enough, you can vote them out. If Juncker, Schulz and Tusk make an even bigger mess of it, there's nothing you can do about it. That's probably why they make an even bigger mess of it. It works like a dictatorship and it is a fundamentally antidemocratic institution.
The money is certainly an issue. There's bags of money available to woo national politicians and their parties and win them over for the big EU project of taking power from the national democracies and shift it to officials free from democratic control. The EU tries much harder to win politicians and parties over by making life easier for them than they try to win the people over for the 'European ideal'. To put it simply, there are personal rewards for beeing part of the ongoing federalisation. Brussels is a very warm bath for pro Eu politicians and civil servants. Great salaries, great expenses paid, great tax cuts, 20% discount on a new car from the industry (dieselgate anyone?), and for the 'elected' officials in the EP you could say that as soon as they arrive, a wall of money and business interests is build between them and their constituency. I'm not against good pay for officials, the flow of money certainly isn't neutral in respect to EU scepticism and EUphilia.
I'm not defending the level of campaigning by the exit side, but the EU is using a lot of our money for their propaganda and when it comes to lying and factual incorrectness, they are second to none. There really isn't that much that distincts the EU from a dictatorship, and the main one is that it's still in the process of grabbing absolute power bit by bit. To me the most shocking thing about this referendum is how little it was about democracy and how much it was about money. Of course democracy and money are natural enemies, but the remain camp seemed very willing to trade off a long and hard fought democracy for a couple of hundred pounds a year.
Credit to the voters who googled 'What is the EU?'. A simple question that is very difficult to answer. To me it seems odd that so many in the remain camp didn't want to aks that question and even ridiculed it.
There is equal blame on the now 50-60+ group who loaded the world up on debt with everything the banks could offer them. The same group who led this leave vote and have again risked all our futures.
The government will have to lift restrictions on the city on my view, the opposite of what they should be doing. Manufacturing and other industries will suffer and London as a financial centre will be needed more than ever to drag us through.