Anything to avoid paying more right? UK is not the only place with an ageing population, NL is exactly the same. We have to pay more for the poor elderly folk and that's how it should be, you'll agree when you are old.
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
- Thread starter Silva
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Long but excellent read from the Guardian
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/aug/04/how-britain-fell-out-of-love-with-the-free-market
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/aug/04/how-britain-fell-out-of-love-with-the-free-market
Jesus, that was a long read. hahaha
I don't believe Brexit has much directly to do with the free market really. It's not one of the top reasons to vote leave from the leave voters (Sovereignty 1, Immigration 2, worry about an expanded EU 3.) Many prominent orchestrators of the EU Referendum, people like Dan Hannan complain the EU is too protectionist and want more open free market.
The UK isn't America. You won't find many people here complaining that their jobs have gone to Eastern Europe, Mexico or China. You will find "some" people who complain yes; the highly publicised Tata Steel, Port Talbot closure is arguably a direct result from the price of steel from China, but it's not something people talk about everyday. The huge crash in 2008 that cost so many people their jobs.. those service jobs didn't go to Eastern Europe or Asia, they just went. In fact I'd say a lot less people talk about free markets today than they did in the 70s and 80s.
So the worry is about Immigration - yes. Free markets - no.
The article focuses on the different views of capitalism across the government and across MPs, which is quite right given that the average Brit doesn't tend to have an opinion on the subject.
I think these questions mirror the debate going on elsewhere, with no real answers.
Have Britain fallen out of love with the free market? Who knows.
Before I moved to France I lived not far from the area you're talking about, in Lincolnshire, and regularly went through Nottingham and surrounding districts. Then go and visit some African towns and villages or many other places in the world and see how far you can really fall, the government have a responsibility to these people and it is their fault that people are in those situations.
We are again back to ignorance, I know these people were desperate but if they were informed they would know it's only going to make it worse , not better and it will get worse for them, even if they think it can't.
But the vast majority of the 17million who voted for Brexit were not poor, what is their excuse.
Actually it was the rich elderly she was targeting.
She targeted both. The 'rich' in terms of means testing free tv licences and perks, but all in terms of removing the triple lock on state pensions, which would potentially of hurt the poorest pensioners the most in terms of percentage of total income.
I probably agree with it in terms of austerity, with other benefits frozen and public sector pay capped well below inflation, but each to their own.
The article doesn't directly link to Brexit but does explain well why people are fecked off with neo liberalist politicscs and are sick of the few making a killing why the average joe rarely feel the good times. Free markets are not the be all and end all. Average people don't feel the good times and have to pay for the bad times.
I have been made redundant in recent years with my job going to india, all my other colleagues had their jobs moved to Hungary so it is a concern. We had 5 developers quit last Friday cos the code they were getting back from india was crap and they flagged it up, no-one listened. so from 20 developers we now have gone down to 7 for a product that the company is investing 90% of its marketing budget on. This is classic race to the bottom stuff. Scared of more resignations the company has promised not to replace those developers with people from India.
Our best selling product is now made in Hungary and the quality of service from there is shocking. Hungary is eastern Europe by the way so are people nervy about their jobs going? Yes they are. Do they talk about it often? Yes they do.
Poland is one of the few places in Europe that has seen a massive decline in poverty, why's that do you think? Either all the poor people are in London or companies are using it for cheap labour.
Lets see how Brexit looks once the dust settles.
Yeah it is a concern, and it definitely happens. But the eastern europe / western Europe divide in wages isn't anywhere near the USA / Mexico wages divide.
I'm sorry you lost your job. It does suck.
I personally don't know what to think about free trade agreements with low wage economies. I understand the basic economic theory that both nations gain from it ... But .
Im so sorry for you mate. I hope holland treats you better then what brexit uk would . After all, according to them, you are now a pesky foreigner who live on benefits and you should therefore be deported
In my opinion you should consider moving to Malta. They speak English, programming jobs are reasonably paid (especially in the gaming industry). Theres free nhs, free childcare and free tertiary education. If you need help let me know.
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That was 2013 and I started a new job immediately so no claim. but it was the 2nd redundancy here where my job was moved to country with cheaper labour force and low business tax. There is no job protection these days, not in the current set up.
That's, good to know. If you ever be in that situation again and you consider relocating just send me a PM. I will do my best to help
Some will not be happy.
Wasn't Europe supposed to go whistle?
They are. We're gonna... we're gonna... draw a load of cocks on the notes and deliver them in old duffle bags to show our disdain for them.
So is this all the fault of the EU?
Wow, this actually raises hopes that constructive negotiations could potentially now get underway.
Underlines the folly of the whole Brexit saga, mind.
EDIT: The Brexiteers are quick to refute it.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/41815...ally-quit-and-talk-trade-deals-with-the-bloc/
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I don't want to keep banging on about UK poverty as it is only part of the Brexit conundrum but this post needs a response. This comparison you seem bent on making with third world poverty is irrelevant. The UK is not Africa. Any accurate measurement of poverty here is taken against a UK median. I'm afraid your stance on this hints at the belief, held in some quarters, that the poor aren't really poor and should be thankful (as you seem to be suggesting) that they're not living in some cholera infested hut on the other side of the world. That's pretty offensive as is the idea that you can glean some understanding of UK poverty merely by passing through an area or two in your car en route to somewhere else. It's a bit more complex than the fact that there aren't rows of Dickensian slums to navigate whilst trying to get to somewhere else.
There can be endless debates about the measurement of absolute vs relative poverty etc but whichever way you look at it when a country that has the 6th largest economy in the world has, according to substantial and respected reports, 21% of it's population in poverty there is a clear and stark economic divide and it's one that no doubt played it's part in the Brexit result. Like I said - rightly or wrongly some have been so badly served that they have voted for change.
I've just had a read back through some of your posts in this thread just to make sure I'm not taking you up wrong as nuance can get lost on a forum such as this. But it appears not - you've been quite consistent in your appalling arrogance, heightened self regard, and constant belittling of the Brexit vote. I'll leave you to it.
https://www.ft.com/content/7d26e4e9-2eb0-3afb-94ec-5874e178c311
read it
http://bfy.tw/DF5B - should be top search result, more likely to work if the above does not
read it
http://bfy.tw/DF5B - should be top search result, more likely to work if the above does not
You are missing my point - the point you made is that they can't be any worse off, I'm saying yes they can and voting for Brexit is not going to make their life better. I can understand a vote for change but not when the change is for a worse situation. What is arrogant about thinking a Brexit vote is a bad idea because it's glaringly obvious that it is and the poorest are the ones that are going to suffer the most.
I know some extremely rich people and I know some extremely poor people so I could find it offensive that you think I'm living in some ivory tower casting aspersions. There are clever poor people and dumb rich people. Brexit is dumb.
I think you just put Paul back in his box
Not on your Nelly
Brexit is going to cost around £100bn. Probably more, but we'll start with that figure.
That's £1500 for every man, woman and child in the UK. Note the children aspect.
How many would have voted Leave if they had to personally pay that. A £6k bill for a family of four.
That's £1500 for every man, woman and child in the UK. Note the children aspect.
How many would have voted Leave if they had to personally pay that. A £6k bill for a family of four.
No. The point I made is that some people, rightly or wrongly, believe it can't get worse for them. I don't believe for a minute, from anything that you've posted that you have an understanding of that nor any empathy for those who find themselves in that position. Quite the opposite in fact.
So you've missed my point entirely. Dumb comes in many guises.
I've said several times that I have understood what you are saying, and I understand why you are saying it but you don't seem to want to accept it, doesn't make the reason people voted that way right. So you're the one missing my point entirely..
What a ridiculous question. And where do you get the confident prediction of £100bn + from? Everything I've seen quotes a range of scenarios but nothing close to that figure.
SOMEONE has to pay it, after all.
And what on earth are you on about???
The EU's opening gambit is a €100bn bill.
Plus another £0.5bn for moving the EU science out of the UK. There will be other instances of such bills
Then there is the damage to the wider economy.
What about Jobs moving to the EU? What about workers not coming to this country? And Euro clearing
So what will the UK economy look like after 13 years?
So you are right, the £100bn figure is way off the mark. It's £100bn per year!*
*By 2030
So the question goes back, would you pay £1500 per person in your family for Brexit?
It's a ridiculous and hypothetical question. And you're asking someone who voted to remain. Think on.
My guess is, a lot of people would still have voted for Brexit. You cannot underestimate the power of nationalism.
Just to say, I'm genuinely a bit shocked by this.
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...busier-negotiating-with-itself-than-eu-brexit
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...ally-impossible-enforce-european-commissions/
http://www.express.co.uk/news/polit...-how-much-cost-UK-exit-payment-European-Union
Whatever you read, you should know the bill we are in for.
I think both Barca and Paul has a point TBH. As said before, as we drove outside London I was astounded by the difference in terms of Standard of living between London and the areas outside of it which made you think you’re in a totally different country. It’s no surprise why people were so angry with the ‘estabilishment’ and that some voted exactly against what the establishment and its army of experts suggested
However, I can’t help thinking that people had shot at their own foot here. The EU with all its weaknesses does take care of its own people. EU Funds had been allocated for the most vulnerable areas which had helped people a great deal. I also don’t think that it’s a very bright idea to allow the British government to allocate the same amount of funds (or more) to the affected areas either. We’re talking here about the same people who ruined the NHS, who had created this sorry state in the first place and who never gave a damn about the poor in the first place. People who would be under intense pressure to sign trade deals to compensate to the massive trade deal lost with the single market. The only way to achieve that is by spending £££ in a ‘divorce’ deal, giving concessions to its own labour market and by conceding in areas that the Brits aren’t actually happy conceding in (the end of the NHS, lowering food standards etc).
I believe that Brexit is a complex issue which brings together a wide variety of people. From the ignorant right to those who felt that it’s time to shake up the establishment, from the xenophobic to the elderly people who were caught into nostalgia trip. From those who genuinely believed the Brexiters ‘cherry picking’ lies right to those who truly believed in a global Britain (some of whom assumed that global Britain was another word to cherry picking but on a global scale). By the looks of it, its slowly turning into a big mess as the EU is far less weak/divided as Brexiters thought and is getting increasingly organized to the concept of kicking the UK out of Europe (financially speaking of course). I wonder whether these poor people would be happy seeing the UK becoming a poorer version of the US
However, I can’t help thinking that people had shot at their own foot here. The EU with all its weaknesses does take care of its own people. EU Funds had been allocated for the most vulnerable areas which had helped people a great deal. I also don’t think that it’s a very bright idea to allow the British government to allocate the same amount of funds (or more) to the affected areas either. We’re talking here about the same people who ruined the NHS, who had created this sorry state in the first place and who never gave a damn about the poor in the first place. People who would be under intense pressure to sign trade deals to compensate to the massive trade deal lost with the single market. The only way to achieve that is by spending £££ in a ‘divorce’ deal, giving concessions to its own labour market and by conceding in areas that the Brits aren’t actually happy conceding in (the end of the NHS, lowering food standards etc).
I believe that Brexit is a complex issue which brings together a wide variety of people. From the ignorant right to those who felt that it’s time to shake up the establishment, from the xenophobic to the elderly people who were caught into nostalgia trip. From those who genuinely believed the Brexiters ‘cherry picking’ lies right to those who truly believed in a global Britain (some of whom assumed that global Britain was another word to cherry picking but on a global scale). By the looks of it, its slowly turning into a big mess as the EU is far less weak/divided as Brexiters thought and is getting increasingly organized to the concept of kicking the UK out of Europe (financially speaking of course). I wonder whether these poor people would be happy seeing the UK becoming a poorer version of the US
Good on you. At least you are not hypocrite as opposed to other expats residing in Barcelona who voted Brexit.
White
I have already paid that in taxes so they can use that
Obviously it's wrongly since the world evidences far greater depths of poverty on far greater scales than are found here - this isn't even up for question. It also isn't a difficult or elitist observation to make that the most vulnerable are often the least informed and that the least informed are often the most likely to make a mistake. Obviously your beef here is that you think Paul is undermining the dignity of the poor by calling them stupid and that the decision of those of them who voted to leave ought to be treated with at least understanding, if not respect. The truth is that you can do all this and still conclude that their decision was folly.
So does everyone earning over £15k. Unfortunately this is a new tax added on to it.
Amazing people baulk at the idea of paying a one off £1500. The wider economic pain will probably be £500-1000 per year.
I can link a similar number of articles speculating a bill much lower. 5 minutes gets you...
http://www.cer.eu/publications/arch...-brexit-bill-how-disentangle-britain-eu-budget
http://bruegel.org/2017/03/divorce-settlement-or-leaving-the-club-a-breakdown-of-the-brexit-bill/
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...es-uk-willing-to-pay-40bn-brexit-divorce-bill
And whatever one reads one should also learn to discern between a euro and a pound sign? Genuinely shocked here.
Nah it's existing taxes tbf, if a transitional agreement is reached the divorce bill will just be paid as part of normal EU budget contributions and the government will pretend they drove the price down. The problem of course is that we've put some proper dumb shits in charge of negotiations so it's hard to assume they'll take a responsible approach here.
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£85bn (which is now £90bn thanks to the fall in the pounds) is only what we pay the EU as an exit fee. The wider cost will be far more. But let's break dow what you said.
Even if you assumed I was only talking about the exit fee - which I wasn't - is £90bn not "close to" £100bn?
If the pounds slips a further 11%, the £90bn would be £100bn anyway.
As it is, I was talking about the whole cost of Brexit, which will undoubtedly be over £100bn
"We will categorically not give the European Union €60bn in one lump sum"
Downing Street and the Brexit department are just over promising on this point. There's no way of getting out of previously agreed monetary contributions. They can just refuse to pay them, of course, but then there's no Brexit deal whatsoever and Britain falls into an economic abyss. Of course, you can't rule out the current cabinet choosing the abyss over looking bad in the daily mail.