Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

A better way of asking the question...

Were most Tory members and voters in favour of a referendum on the EU? I'd say that the answer was yes, particularly with Labour's Lisbon Treaty deceit a recent memory.

Ironically, the Liberal Democrats were not at all keen on the idea of an EU Con vote, stating that they wanted a clear In or Out referendum. They were supposed to get a different result i am assuming.

 

[Jippy]

So you're saying Tory voters were a bit bleeding thick then, because now the referendum seems to be the biggest thing since world war two for many, yet Tory plans couldn't have been made clearer in the election campaign.

Just admit people who voted Tory yet who are vehemently opposed to Brexit have only themselves to blame and we can move on.

Arguably in some respects, but obviously no-one anticipated the outcome. The option of Miliband was not exactly a draw in the other way though.

 

[Cheesy]

Arguably in some respects, but obviously no-one anticipated the outcome. The option of Miliband was not exactly a draw in the other way though.

Out of interest, would you take a Miliband administration with us still in the EU ahead of the current one outside of it?

 

[Stanley Road]

Vote tory, vote for referendum

50% chance of leave

Who are the 'idiots' again?

 

[Stanley Road]

Arguably in some respects, but obviously no-one anticipated the outcome. The option of Miliband was not exactly a draw in the other way though.

The option was chance of leaving vs not voting tory. Simple as that.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

I also think it's worth noting that the general perception was often that a referendum would be for Remain: the main voice for Leave was the highly divisive Farage whose party had only a couple of Tory defecting MP's from by-elections, and Cameron had managed to create a perception of his party being more pro-EU than they really were. There was no guarantee of key names like Boris and Gove jumping in for a Leave campaign at the time...and the vote was often originally touted to be in 2017, which meant it would've felt like a long time away from any major vote.

2010 was the most Eurosceptic intake of MPs in years, so i really have to disagree with you there. The Coalition also sustained some of its biggest revolts on EU related matters. If anything, Cameron spent much of his time trying to portray himself as more anti-Brussels that he actually was. Eventually, he got found out.

 

[Cheesy]

2010 was the most Eurosceptic intake of MPs in years, so i really have to disagree with you there. The Coalition also sustained some of its biggest revolts on EU related matters. If anything, Cameron spent much of his time trying to portray himself as more anti-Brussels that he actually was. Eventually, he got found out.

Most people ultimately vote for the party as opposed to the MP, though. Cameron did try to appear hardline on certain EU matters but he was still ultimately in strong opposition to Brexit and his proposed reforms were mostly laughed out the door by those in favour of leaving.

 

[Jippy]

Out of interest, would you take a Miliband administration with us still in the EU ahead of the current one outside of it?

That's a very good question. In hindsight maybe yes, at a push, but purely on that one issue.

The option was chance of leaving vs not voting tory. Simple as that.

Yeah, but it was seen as such a peripheral issue and barely a risk worth considering. As above, hindsight is a glorious thing. Even the staunchest Labour fans are admitting that they've been a shitshow for the best part of a decade now. And even as a historic Tory voter, I'd welcome a credible opposition.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

Most people ultimately vote for the party as opposed to the MP, though. Cameron did try to appear hardline on certain EU matters but he was still ultimately in strong opposition to Brexit and his proposed reforms were mostly laughed out the door by those in favour of leaving.

The point being, that 2010 onwards was not presented as being more pro-EU. on the contrary in fact. His reforms were rightly laughed out of town. More to the point, his conduct since those negotiations demonstrated quite amply what a sham they were. Not that the European Union took the threat of Brexit the least bit seriously either, but still.

 

[711]

I also think it's worth noting that the general perception was often that a referendum would be for Remain:

True, in fact I started the original referendum thread on that basis, with complaints that whilst I was hoping to win money on betting Remain, I was disappointed by the odds.

I've still not seen anyone on here taking responsibility though. The thread's chock full of people claiming to be cleverer, better educated, worldly-wise and prosperous than average, but seemingly without the humility to admit being unable to read a manifesto.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

True, in fact I started the original referendum thread on that basis, with complaints that whilst I was hoping to win money on betting Remain, I was disappointed by the odds.

I've still not seen anyone on here taking responsibility though. The thread's chock full of people claiming to be cleverer, better educated, worldly-wise and prosperous than average, but seemingly without the humility to admit being unable to read a manifesto.

I think the majority of Labour voters voted to remain as well which makes the desire to blame the North of England very odd. In the general election, the labour leader refused to offer the referendum just to help win power exactly because it was inherently destabilising and economically dangerous.

If the remoaners are correct and untold misery is to follow the Brexit vote then at what point do Tory voters admit that the whole thing was lead from the beginning by the Tory right and championed in the Tory press. How stupid do you have to be to vote for a party and put it into govt while large elements of that party actively campaigned for decades to do something you fundamentally disagree with and can't live with after it happened?

Easier to blame people from Sunderland than themselves perhaps.

 

[Jippy]

I think the majority of Labour voters voted to remain as well which makes the desire to blame the North of England very odd. In the general election, the labour leader refused to offer the referendum just to help win power exactly because it was inherently destabilising and economically dangerous.

If the remoaners are correct and untold misery is to follow the Brexit vote then at what point do Tory voters admit that the whole thing was lead from the beginning by the Tory right and championed in the Tory press. How stupid do you have to be to vote for a party and put it into govt while large elements of that party actively campaigned for decades to do something you fundamentally disagree with and can't live with after it happened?

Easier to blame people from Sunderland than themselves perhaps.

Not sue why you're obsessed with this notion that the north is blamed for Brexit. It was pretty well documented that the likes of Cornwall and pretty much all of England voted out, barring London and the odd regional pocket here and there, like Leicester.

 

[Ultimate Grib]

The main reason why Tories won the GE was Nick Clegg. He screwed the liberals by making a deal to prop up Cameron and then screwed them even harder by propping up their policies too.

The split of Liberal voters caused a major shift in balanced areas and Cameron managed to gain 24 seats with only 0.9% more of the vote than in the previous election. Both Labour and Conservatives made gains in voters and Labour in fact made even bigger gains than the Conservatives but it wasn't able to capitalise in key balanced areas.

One of the main reasons for that was Camerons tactics with the debates where he put in front of the people a bigger choice of candidates witg similar policies who despite not having any chance of ruling the country would have every chance to sway voters. By changing the fabric of the election from a two horse race to one centre right in conservative and several centre left parties he effectively killed any logical gains Labour should have made from the Lib Dems.

They played it brilliantly by instilling the fear of Ed being propped up by the SNP in the very likely event of a hung parliament while playing down the UKIP connection at the same time on their end because they were only looking for a majority government. It forced Labour to keep denying this. It was Cameron who gave SNP the platform to destroy Labour in Scotland.

Utimately played into the hands of the grand puppet master Murdoch's propaganda machines and they have done so for decades so I don't know why we even bother.

I will repeat what I said before, screw you Nick Clegg!

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

I think the chattering classes expected the Tory rank and file to be awkward on Europe, the Euroscepticism was of long-standing after all. Traditional Labour constituencies on other hand, were supposed to do as they were told. Maybe there was an expectation that voting behaviour would echo that of a general election, yet even in that scenario there were indicators of shifting sentiment as recently as 2015. I'm not sure why many of thee areas should have been so obliging either, not considering the complacency with which they have been viewed by all of the main parties.

 

[Ultimate Grib]

I think the chattering classes expected the Tory rank and file to be awkward on Europe, the Euroscepticism was of long-standing after all. Traditional Labour constituencies on other hand, were supposed to do as they were told. Maybe there was an expectation that voting behaviour would echo that of a general election, yet even in that scenario there were indicators of shifting sentiment as recently as 2015. I'm not sure why many of thee areas should have been so obliging either, not considering the complacency with which they have been viewed by all of the main parties.

Labour constituencies did as they were told by their leader. They dithered exactly like him not being sure what the message was. They were as conflicted as Jeremy was during that whole campaign.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

It was Cameron who gave SNP the platform to destroy Labour in Scotland.

I think if you ask the Scottish voters on here you'll receive a somewhat different answer. Labour has been laying the foundations for this decline over a number of years, so much so that the Tories have since overtaken them in Holyrood.

 

[Don't Kill Bill]

Not sue why you're obsessed with this notion that the north is blamed for Brexit. It was pretty well documented that the likes of Cornwall and pretty much all of England voted out, barring London and the odd regional pocket here and there, like Leicester.

Because it is being, it shouldn't be and I thought you were doing so about five posts back and I'm hearing it in the media in general. While all you say about the voting demographic is true the truth is not what it used to be.

So when I hear talk about the North-South divide and subsidising the North and how that is not going to go down well because they voted Brexit. I start to get that uneasy feeling that politically it is much easier to give people a financial kicking if you can point a finger at them and say they brought it on themselves.

Everyone who talks about England voting leave should be required by law to add and Wales.

Everyone who uses Sunderland as an example should be forced to use Milton Keynes the same number of times.

 

[Ultimate Grib]

I think if you ask the Scottish voters on here you'll receive a somewhat different answer. Labour has been laying the foundations for this decline over a number of years, so much so that the Tories have since overtaken them in Holyrood.

Sure Labour hasn't put much effort into Scotland for a lot of years because they considered them safe seats but the credit for the rise of the SNP remains with David Cameron's campaign team and the charisma and eloquence of Nicola Sturgeon. I remember during those debates reading many opinions of people wishing they could vote for her south of the border.

 

[Jippy]

Because it is being, it shouldn't be and I thought you were doing so about five posts back and I'm hearing it in the media in general. While all you say about the voting demographic is true the truth is not what it used to be.

So when I hear talk about the North-South divide and subsidising the North and how that is not going to go down well because they voted Brexit. I start to get that uneasy feeling that politically it is much easier to give people a financial kicking if you can point a finger at them and say they brought it on themselves.

Everyone who talks about England voting leave should be required by law to add and Wales.

Everyone who uses Sunderland as an example should be forced to use Milton Keynes the same number of times.

Fair enough. The north-south divide is sadly all too real though- the daft thing is that the south has as many shitholes, eg Croydon, Northampton, Southend etc... as the north, but has a weird superiority complex.
Certain people up north seem to be taking a weird glee in the City being fecked over, despite it being 12% of the UK's GDP. It is understandable that people knock the apparently willful destructiveness of Brexit.

 

[Ultimate Grib]

Fair enough. The north-south divide is sadly all too real though- the daft thing is that the south has as many shitholes, eg Croydon, Northampton, Southend etc... as the north, but has a weird superiority complex.
Certain people up north seem to be taking a weird glee in the City being fecked over, despite it being 12% of the UK's GDP. It is understandable that people knock the apparently willful destructiveness of Brexit.

Its likely that those people you mention don't even know what GDP is or even what percentages are.

Now I'm not saying they are stupid people but it was true that 27/30 areas with the least graduates voted to leave so maybe I am.

It may seem arbitrary but its most likely true because you have to be stupid to cut your nose off to spite your face. Screw those bankers and their million pound bonuses we're getting our country back.

It was funny how before the referendum all I could read on social media was leavers playing down famous people of different talents and backgrounds advocating remain as a "well off" elite and that Brexit would somehow shift this balance of power from the elite to the people who would then become "well off". Haven't seen any brexiteers claim this power since then. They've all disappeared!

 

[Kentonio]

If the remoaners are correct and untold misery is to follow the Brexit vote then at what point do Tory voters admit that the whole thing was lead from the beginning by the Tory right and championed in the Tory press. How stupid do you have to be to vote for a party and put it into govt while large elements of that party actively campaigned for decades to do something you fundamentally disagree with and can't live with after it happened?

It was never taken seriously basically. The Tory party had been fundamentally split for decades along the euro issue, and when UKIP arrived on the scene for a while it released some of the pressure by removed the most extreme members, but then over time became an actual threat to the Tories. A large part of the Tory party saw the referendum as exactly what it was intended to be, a pointless waste of time and effort to release some of the growing euro-spectic energy, and return things to a more stable situation. No-one in politics seriously thought it would actually pass, the idea seemed ridiculous.

 

[PedroMendez]

Spoiler: Trigger warning

 

[Smores]

Tony Blair needs to stick to his paid speeches rather than making the issue about himself the narcissist.

 

[JON.B]

Tony Blair needs to crawl back to whichever rock he's been living under for the past number of years and keep his mouth shut, especially when it comes to misinformation because he's in no place to comment or pass judgement on recent events.

 

[Ubik]

He's right in much of what he says, can't believe he doesn't realise he's hindrance to that message being listened to though.

 

[711]

He's right in much of what he says, can't believe he doesn't realise he's hindrance to that message being listened to though.

Agreed. If his intention is to serve the nation he would do that best by advising someone else whilst remaining in the background.

 

[Fener1907]

I'd guess that Blair wants to further undermine Corbyn as much as anything. Many people will inevitably moan about Iraq, while many others will get behind the message and give the middle finger to Corbyn and his unconvincing vision for Labour.

 

[Smores]

He's right in much of what he says, can't believe he doesn't realise he's hindrance to that message being listened to though.

He's right with some of it, maybe most but he's the worst person to be the messenger. For one because you can lay the blame for brexit at his door and secondly the hypocrisy of him claiming voters were misled.

He doesn't care though he's only doing it for his own interests. Best thing for everyone would be to ignore him.

 

[Ubik]

I'd say it's pretty unlikely he's doing it for himself or for anti-Corbyn reasons, the EU is one of the few things he's rigidly ideological on and it's hard to disagree that there's a severe dearth of effective people championing that argument, Labour having largely given up in all wings of the party. But when he continually insists on refusing to acknowledge that Iraq was a colossal mistake, people aren't going to take him seriously.

 

[Unmutual]

He's right with some of it, maybe most but he's the worst person to be the messenger.

Who else? Reality is that the pro-EU camp have completely collapsed. The only people making the pro-EU argument are Farron and Lucas, who are so insubstantial that the Daily Mail can't even be bothered to attack them.

Someone high profile has to say something, and whoever it it is going to take a serious shoeing. May as well let Blair take the worst of it, maybe it'll allow other people to step in afterwards.

 

[Smores]

I'd say it's pretty unlikely he's doing it for himself or for anti-Corbyn reasons, the EU is one of the few things he's rigidly ideological on and it's hard to disagree that there's a severe dearth of effective people championing that argument, Labour having largely given up in all wings of the party. But when he continually insists on refusing to acknowledge that Iraq was a colossal mistake, people aren't going to take him seriously.

Oh come on, he's friends/aligned with a lot of people who are against brexit and then you've got the fact he makes his career on being relevant. He's taken a reputational hit over chilcot, this is nothing but PR for him so he can make more money down the road.

 

[Smores]

Who else? Reality is that the pro-EU camp have completely collapsed. The only people making the pro-EU argument are Farron and Lucas, who are so insubstantial that the Daily Mail can't even be bothered to attack them.

Someone high profile has to say something, and whoever it it is going to take a serious shoeing. May as well let Blair take the worst of it, maybe it'll allow other people to step in afterwards.

How about anyone else? Blairs actions are responsible for the idea they were flooding in from Europe in the first place, he's one of the main reasons Labour aren't trusted on immigration. All this will do is remind people of this further, its damaging to Labour.

Nearly all the anti-eu arguments trace back to his goverment.

 

[Dobba]

Can only see one party winning the next election now.

 

[Ubik]

Oh come on, he's friends/aligned with a lot of people who are against brexit and then you've got the fact he makes his career on being relevant. He's taken a reputational hit over chilcot, this is nothing but PR for him so he can make more money down the road.

He's friends with those people largely because he's the most unabashed europhile around. He came out of hiding during the 2015 election campaign to make a single speech, that you should vote Labour because if the Tories got in you'd risk leaving the EU.

I don't doubt that he's a chronic self-publicist who resents his image being tarnished, but saying that he's only interested in talking about the EU to keep his friends and get paid to make speeches is akin to saying Corbyn only makes anti-Trident stands so he can speak at CND rallies.

 

[Unmutual]

How about anyone else? Blairs actions are responsible for the idea they were flooding in from Europe in the first place, he's one of the main reasons Labour aren't trusted on immigration. All this will do is remind people of this further, its damaging to Labour.

Nearly all the anti-eu arguments trace back to his goverment.

The latter is highly debatable, to say the least.

But ignoring that, its easy to say "anyone", but who? Can you name a single person with anything like the level of profile needed to get the debate going again? I'm struggling to think of someone.

 

[Smores]

He's friends with those people largely because he's the most unabashed europhile around. He came out of hiding during the 2015 election campaign to make a single speech, that you should vote Labour because if the Tories got in you'd risk leaving the EU.

I don't doubt that he's a chronic self-publicist who resents his image being tarnished, but saying that he's only interested in talking about the EU to keep his friends and get paid to make speeches is akin to saying Corbyn only makes anti-Trident stands so he can speak at CND rallies.

Perhaps im just a cynic

Still he wasn't in hiding he was touting himself round the middle east, now there's a market here on which he can pitch himself as an expert. If he doesn't come out as some point that he's doing a lot of highly paid work ill be shocked. Maybe he just sees this as a fhance to redeem his reputation there's always that.

Either way think all sides agree politically it isn't helpful.

 

[Smores]

The latter is highly debatable, to say the least.

But ignoring that, its easy to say "anyone", but who? Can you name a single person with anything like the level of profile needed to get the debate going again? I'm struggling to think of someone.

The european project, euro, and immigration are all on him. Have we forgotten his warnings about not integrating further and it would all be a huge mistake?

To be honest i dont think the issue needs a poster boy, its being debated in the house and Lords and the media are covering it. It doesn't need its profile raised. MPs have been doing a good job if anyone bothered to listen in on the debates. You could argue someone is needed to make visible this work but that's only for public sentiment its not going to change anything.

 

[Nick 0208 Ldn]

BBC:

2008: Lib Dem leader Nick Clegg calls for an "in-out" referendum on UK membership of the EU. MPs reject a Conservative call for a referendum on whether the Lisbon Treaty should be ratified by 63 votes. 15 Labour MPs and 14 Lib Dems rebel against their parties

^ An amusing footnote that i was reading earlier. One of those roads not taken.

Its likely that those people you mention don't even know what GDP is or even what percentages are.

Now I'm not saying they are stupid...

No, of course not, i don't even know why you felt the need for a clarification.

I'd say it's pretty unlikely he's doing it for himself or for anti-Corbyn reasons, the EU is one of the few things he's rigidly ideological on and it's hard to disagree that there's a severe dearth of effective people championing that argument, Labour having largely given up in all wings of the party. But when he continually insists on refusing to acknowledge that Iraq was a colossal mistake, people aren't going to take him seriously.

But even that was in part a self-serving act, on account of his ambition to be the first President of Europe.

 

[Adisa]

Toni Blair was right in a lot of the things he said.
However, why can't he see that a lot of what he says will be taken badly, simply because it's coming from his mouth?

 

[LuisNaniencia]

feck me, did Boris Big Red Bus Johnson actually call it a "condescending campaign"?

It may well be but he's got no fecking right to talk about it.