Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Adebesi]

Late to comment on that but I wonder if you actually follow what the EP does, which rights they have and actually execute. I have no doubt that it's harder to follow that via English media but it's possible via the EU's websites, you can talk to your local MEPs, follow different EU party websites, etc. It's also possible to observe who voted in which way on which individual subject, both the Council and EP. You can see draft regulations and directives and how they evolve to the final versions, follow the legislative process etc. Therefore, I oppose that the EU isn't democratic, are not accountable or whatever.
BTW: Your comment regarding Germany is BS, sorry. It's funny to see though that some myths simply live forever.

Fair enough. No, I dont follow Europe closely using any of those sources. I keep half an eye on it by reading The Economist.

As for my comment about Germany, you will notice if you look back at my post that I said "there is a sense", rather than "it is actually the case". I understand that the reality is more nuanced than the perception. But ask people in Greece who drives European policy, I think the answer will be overwhelmingly that it is Germany. Whether that perception is 100% inaccurate is something we could probably debate endlessly. But in a sense none of that matters, if you read all the posts from that exchange the other day you will see that I am talking about the survival of the EU and in that sense perception is as important as reality, probably more so. If the political developments of 2016 have taught us anything it is surely that.

 

[Crossie]

Three days old and dismissed but find it amusing whether it's government's strategy or just an aide's notes from a meeting somewhere in Downing street:

Handwritten note photographed in hands of Tory aide on Downing Street says: ‘What’s the model? Have cake and eat it’
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...-stay-in-single-market-tory-document-suggests

Dismissed by Greg Clark:
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...misses-having-cake-and-eating-it-brexit-notes

 

[Crossie]

Fair enough. No, I dont follow Europe closely using any of those sources. I keep half an eye on it by reading The Economist.

I don't know if the Economist is the best source for following the EU's work. If you're interested, check the UK's votes (Council and MEPs) on various subjects. If more voters were doing it, it would be much harder for any politician to use the EU as a scapegoat. http://www.votewatch.eu/
Don't get me wrong: The EU is far from being perfect. But many of the allegations are either untrue or not worse than in most parliaments and governments of EU member states.

As for my comment about Germany, you will notice if you look back at my post that I said "there is a sense", rather than "it is actually the case". I understand that the reality is more nuanced than the perception. But ask people in Greece who drives European policy, I think the answer will be overwhelmingly that it is Germany. Whether that perception is 100% inaccurate is something we could probably debate endlessly. But in a sense none of that matters, if you read all the posts from that exchange the other day you will see that I am talking about the survival of the EU and in that sense perception is as important as reality, probably more so. If the political developments of 2016 have taught us anything it is surely that.

It might be a perception but it's not true nevertheless. If people are too lazy (obviously I am not referring to you) to use their brain but endulge in scapegouting and let themselves easily manipulated, there's nothing that can be done: THAT is the sad lesson from Brexit and the US elections.

 

[Stanley Road]

trying to maintain a one size fits all approach which has been disastrous in other areas

As Le Pen said on the Marr show.

"The EU is like making everybody wear the same suit, for some it fits, for others it's too tight or too big and it's been Tailored in Germany"

 

[JPRouve]

As Le Pen said on the Marr show.

"The EU is like making everybody wear the same suit, for some it fits, for others it's too tight or too big and it's been Tailored in Germany"

When Le Pen is used as a reference something is really wrong.

 

[Stanley Road]

When Le Pen is used as a reference something is really wrong.

It is, the EU

 

[Cheesy]

As Le Pen said on the Marr show.

"The EU is like making everybody wear the same suit, for some it fits, for others it's too tight or too big and it's been Tailored in Germany"

To be fair, I much preferred that quote to her one where she passionately endorses the Fuhrer.

 

[JPRouve]

It is, the EU

No, the problem is that France are at the heart of the creation of the EU and everyone knows that so blaming Germany is interesting from a french politician. And Le Pen and her party are the most dishonest politicians around and the demonstration of everything that can go wrong in politics, nepotism, disinformation, negationism, fraud.

 

[MoskvaRed]

If it was a generational thing then the uk would have been more brexit during the 90s then now. Its not the case. Anti eu sentiment increased in line to eu federalism. Once the eu started talking about becoming more of a political union the uk started getting more anti eu. I mean take the eu army as an example. What is wrong with it? Why on earth should the richest continent in the world be militarily lead by the us? But the uk go bezerk whenever talks about a eu army are discussed

I don't blame the uk to be scared shit of a unified europe. As said it made sense 4 them as a unified europe was bad news for them. However its also fair for us to move on without constantly being challenged and undermined by the enemy within. The brits wanted the cake, let them eat it

A certain section of the UK population has always been anti-EU, believing, for example, that the original referendum in 1975 was rigged. I don't think sentiment has changed among such people, it's just that no leader before Cameron was naive enough to put the question to a popular vote. You are right that there was no appetite for a federal Europe (even with Remain supporters like me) but the UK had an opt out anyway.

As for the EU army, that would require the EU countries to allocate funds to defence rather than freeload off the US. Also, how would it work in practice give the prevalence of Russian influence in certain countries? I wouldn't even trust Germany in that regard (their ex-Chancellor is a Putinversteher working for Gazprom).

 

[Stanley Road]

No, the problem is that France are at the heart of the creation of the EU and everyone knows that so blaming Germany is interesting from a french politician. And Le Pen and her party are the most dishonest politicians around and the demonstration of everything that can go wrong in politics, nepotism, disinformation, negationism, fraud.

The most dishonest is not much better than the least dishonest

 

[nick2004]

If it was a generational thing then the uk would have been more brexit during the 90s then now. Its not the case. Anti eu sentiment increased in line to eu federalism. Once the eu started talking about becoming more of a political union the uk started getting more anti eu. I mean take the eu army as an example. What is wrong with it? Why on earth should the richest continent in the world be militarily lead by the us? But the uk go bezerk whenever talks about a eu army are discussed

I don't blame the uk to be scared shit of a unified europe. As said it made sense 4 them as a unified europe was bad news for them. However its also fair for us to move on without constantly being challenged and undermined by the enemy within. The brits wanted the cake, let them eat it

A political union and a federal EU is off the table since the rejection of the European Constitution by the French in 2005.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_European_Constitution_referendum,_2005

I think this was the turning point. It left Europe without a purpose and people started blaming all ills on the EU... I still believe that the unification of Europe was, and still is, a noble idea, worth to strive for. If nothing else, it has saved Europe from wars for 70 years, not a small feat considering the history of the continent.


The current problems have nothing to do with the EU, since USA has the same problems and actually the financial meltdown started in USA, not in Europe. The root of the problem is the financial situation: in the last 30 years there has been a great advancement in productivity due to computers and automation. However, even though people now produce more with less effort (because of the machines) this has actually lead to more financial uncertainty and more stressful jobs. It was great for the billionaires, but not for the rest of us.

"Record 94 million Americans Not in Labor Force"

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article...cans-not-labor-force-participation-rate-drops

 

[JPRouve]

A political union and a federal EU is off the table since the rejection of the European Constitution by the French in 2005.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_European_Constitution_referendum,_2005

I think this was the turning point. It left Europe without a purpose and people started blaming all ills on the EU... I still believe that the unification of Europe was, and still is, a noble idea, worth to strive for. If nothing else, it has saved Europe from wars for 70 years, not a small feat considering the history of the continent.


The current problems have nothing to do with the EU, since USA has the same problems and actually the financial meltdown started in USA, not in Europe. The root of the problem is the financial situation: in the last 30 years there has been a great advancement in productivity due to computers and automation. However, even though people now produce more with less effort (because of the machines) this has actually lead to more financial uncertainty and more stressful jobs. It was great for the billionaires, but not for the rest of us.

"Record 94 million Americans Not in Labor Force"

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article...cans-not-labor-force-participation-rate-drops

I don't understand your use of the 2005 election, people voted against Chirac.

 

[Member 5225]

*Italian referendum likely to fail
Strong nationalist movements in France
Strong nationalist about to take charge of Austria
The Euro being patched together over and over again
Youth unemployment at shocking levels
Backlash from communities re intake of migrants at unprecedented levels
EU banks fragile
Nationalist movements in Holland
Etc
Etc*

Tell me more about how the EU is a strong community, fit for purpose and the UK would be foolish to leave!

 

[Member 5225]

just to be clear, a lot of people I speak to agree with me that it's the gradual morphing of 'let's trade together' into 'let's develop centralised laws that all of us need to follow, let's integrate communities, feck it let's have a single army approach' etc that has people wound up.

Even if they scrap it all, start from scratch and are open about here's what we ideally want - I might even be receptive! But who knows what they're dreaming up over the next 20years?! No thanks!

 

[devilish]

*Italian referendum likely to fail
Strong nationalist movements in France
Strong nationalist about to take charge of Austria
The Euro being patched together over and over again
Youth unemployment at shocking levels
Backlash from communities re intake of migrants at unprecedented levels
EU banks fragile
Nationalist movements in Holland
Etc
Etc*

Tell me more about how the EU is a strong community, fit for purpose and the UK would be foolish to leave!

Well ask that to the Brexiteers who keep backpaddling furiously and are desperate for access to the single movement

 

[devilish]

just to be clear, a lot of people I speak to agree with me that it's the gradual morphing of 'let's trade together' into 'let's develop centralised laws that all of us need to follow, let's integrate communities, feck it let's have a single army approach' etc that has people wound up.

Even if they scrap it all, start from scratch and are open about here's what we ideally want - I might even be receptive! But who knows what they're dreaming up over the next 20years?! No thanks!

The problem is that the EU find it a bit scandalous to ask countries to give unrestricted access to someone market and money but then slam the door to their people. It doesn't even make sense for them and actually think its a bit unfair if not xenophobic to ask that.

There again it accepts that others might have a different opinion. Hence why it permits countries to change their mind regarding freedom of movement as long as they don't expect unrestricted access to the single market.

 

[Member 5225]

The problem is that the EU find it a bit scandalous to ask countries to give unrestricted access to someone market and money but then slam the door to their people. It doesn't even make sense for them and actually think its a bit unfair if not xenophobic to ask that.

There again it accepts that others might have a different opinion. Hence why it permits countries to change their mind regarding freedom of movement as long as they don't expect unrestricted access to the single market.

When you talk about what 'the EU feel' - you do realise that is some bunch of old out of touch bureaucrats sitting in Brussels rather than the actual people of these nations, which is the cause of this major wind-up right?

Ps see the news re insurgencies of nationalist movements throughout as proof.

 

[Member 5225]

Well ask that to the Brexiteers who keep backpaddling furiously and are desperate for access to the single movement

So if they demand a clean-cutaway then they're 'delusionary and stupid', if they attempt access to the single market (of which most nations on the planet have btw, but let's leave that to a side), then they are 'furiously backpeddling'?

 

[Pogue Mahone]

*Italian referendum likely to fail
Strong nationalist movements in France
Strong nationalist about to take charge of Austria
The Euro being patched together over and over again
Youth unemployment at shocking levels
Backlash from communities re intake of migrants at unprecedented levels
EU banks fragile
Nationalist movements in Holland
Etc
Etc*

Tell me more about how the EU is a strong community, fit for purpose and the UK would be foolish to leave!

Do you think the UK economy can operate independently from all of that? With or without Brexit?

If the whole European economy goes completely tits up then Britain is being taken down with it, whether or not they're part of the EU. It's in Britain's interest for the EU to be as strong as possible. The best way to help is from the inside.

 

[devilish]

So if they demand a clean-cutaway then they're 'delusionary and stupid', if they attempt access to the single market (of which most nations on the planet have btw, but let's leave that to a side), then they are 'furiously backpeddling'?

No one calls anyone anything. Europe would love the UK to demand a clean cutaway. They have been begging you to activate the damn thing since you voted for Brexit.

I bet they have realised that the project is much better off without a country who keep sending Ukipers and whose best scenario is for the EU project to burn in flames so that they can return to the divide and conquer tactics that served them so well for many centuries

The ones hesitating is not Europe but you. You keep negotiating with one another giving Europe concessions that haven't asked in the first place (EU immigrants who live in the UK should remain there, willingness to pay in the single market and 4 ambassadors just said that your foreign secretary has said that he's not that much against FOM).

 

[devilish]

When you talk about what 'the EU feel' - you do realise that is some bunch of old out of touch bureaucrats sitting in Brussels rather than the actual people of these nations, which is the cause of this major wind-up right?

Ps see the news re insurgencies of nationalist movements throughout as proof.

Well, if you think that the head of states of each and every 27 country is old out of touch bureaucrats then by all means go ahead. To be fair, not everyone can have young, vibrant and in touch prime ministers, Brexit ministers and foreign secretaries as the UK has. Whose the prime minister exactly? Natalie Dormer right?

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

When you talk about what 'the EU feel' - you do realise that is some bunch of old out of touch bureaucrats sitting in Brussels rather than the actual people of these nations, which is the cause of this major wind-up right.

I love people who think this about the EU, as though it's a non-elected group of bond villains making all of the decisions

 

[devilish]

A certain section of the UK population has always been anti-EU, believing, for example, that the original referendum in 1975 was rigged. I don't think sentiment has changed among such people, it's just that no leader before Cameron was naive enough to put the question to a popular vote. You are right that there was no appetite for a federal Europe (even with Remain supporters like me) but the UK had an opt out anyway.

As for the EU army, that would require the EU countries to allocate funds to defence rather than freeload off the US. Also, how would it work in practice give the prevalence of Russian influence in certain countries? I wouldn't even trust Germany in that regard (their ex-Chancellor is a Putinversteher working for Gazprom).

Anti Europe sentiment increased with federalism and a decline in the UK trading with the EU. Lets face it mate, you don't like Europe very much. You're closer to the US then you're with the French and the Germans.

Regarding Russia, I believe that its time for Europe to accept our 'noisy' neighbour and learn to live with it. I've got friends from Ukraine and Estonia and I can assure you that they did poke the bear in numerous occasions, by treating Russian speaking citizens badly and indirectly discriminating them. An Estonian friend of mine moved to the UK to study mainly because she was discriminated in her own country despite having high grades. They did so because of her Russian surname. The EU must stop closing an eye to that.

However that doesn't mean the EU doesn't have to have an army. Federalism is the future (which unlike what others say it worked successful as witnessed by the Chin empire, the Roman empire, the holy roman empire, The United States of America and the Russian Federation) and all of them have an army. We cant have our foreign policy being decided by third parties like the UK or the US and for sure we need to remove that bargaining chip from their hands

 

[Member 5225]

Do you think the UK economy can operate independently from all of that? With or without Brexit?

If the whole European economy goes completely tits up then Britain is being taken down with it, whether or not they're part of the EU. It's in Britain's interest for the EU to be as strong as possible. The best way to help is from the inside.

I disagree with the premise of 'stay with the EU and be outward and open' rather than errr....being able to discuss trade terms with other countries around the world!

The EU bloc, in my eyes is the epitome of a protectionist bloc, closed mindedness etc. The project (of transferring cash from bigger nations to smaller poorer ones) is the epitome of socialism (on steroids!), I am philosophically against both, and on top am alarmed (and angry) it came to this via the back door, simples.
Seems many are in the same boat as I.

 

[Member 5225]

I love people who think this about the EU, as though it's a non-elected group of bond villains making all of the decisions

Sorry? this is not about the EU you say? I am confused mate (and maybe you are more!)

 

[Member 5225]

Well, if you think that the head of states of each and every 27 country is old out of touch bureaucrats then by all means go ahead. To be fair, not everyone can have young, vibrant and in touch prime ministers, Brexit ministers and foreign secretaries as the UK has. Whose the prime minister exactly? Natalie Dormer right?

Don't worry we are going, we've voted out....minor detail that many seem to want to forget!

 

[Mozza]

I disagree with the premise of 'stay with the EU and be outward and open' rather than errr....being able to discuss trade terms with other countries around the world!

The EU bloc, in my eyes is the epitome of a protectionist bloc, closed mindedness etc. The project (of transferring cash from bigger nations to smaller poorer ones) is the epitome of socialism (on steroids!), I am philosophically against both, and on top am alarmed (and angry) it came to this via the back door, simples.
Seems many are in the same boat as I.

You are against socialism but have chosen to move to Canada. Makes perfect sense

 

[Member 5225]

You are against socialism but have chosen to move to Canada. Makes perfect sense

TBH they are more conservative than it seems!

I am pragmatic - if we have tons of cash then I'm all for splashing it around, if we are under hardship, I am for being a bit more conservative and thoughtful.

I am socially liberal and fiscally conservative re statement that I am 'against' socialism.

 

[fcbforever]

So if they demand a clean-cutaway then they're 'delusionary and stupid', if they attempt access to the single market (of which most nations on the planet have btw, but let's leave that to a side), then they are 'furiously backpeddling'?

Well, yes. THey are backpaddling because they realised tit would be stupid to cut clean.

I disagree with the premise of 'stay with the EU and be outward and open' rather than errr....being able to discuss trade terms with other countries around the world!

The EU bloc, in my eyes is the epitome of a protectionist bloc, closed mindedness etc. The project (of transferring cash from bigger nations to smaller poorer ones) is the epitome of socialism (on steroids!), I am philosophically against both, and on top am alarmed (and angry) it came to this via the back door, simples.
Seems many are in the same boat as I.

Wow
You realise the Euro is something else then the EU and you never were part of it? You also realise that EU-funded projects in eastern Europe did play a big part in thriving their economy, helping everyone in the long run?
And yes, your boat is full of racist twats who do not even realise getting out of the EU won't change much on immigration. Pakistian and India are in the EU right?

 

[Member 5225]

Well, yes. THey are backpaddling because they realised tit would be stupid to cut clean.



Wow
You realise the Euro is something else then the EU and you never were part of it? You also realise that EU-funded projects in eastern Europe did play a big part in thriving their economy, helping everyone in the long run?
And yes, your boat is full of racist twats who do not even realise getting out of the EU won't change much on immigration. Pakistian and India are in the EU right?

Cheers for the sarcastic smiley mate - when did I mention the Euro again?

 

[devilish]

The funny thing is that the UK is an EU successful story. Prior to its entrance in the EU the UK was Europe's sick person. Now its a financial powerhouse. Is the EU perfect? Of course not. But if the UK voter want a bigger say in Europe than they should stop sending poorly educated Ukipers who are among the laziest MEPs in Europe and who keeps taken the mickey out of everybody (unless of course they are punching one another). If the UK voter wants more fairness and are pissed off about banks then they should stop electing the rich people/banker's party in government. Its that simple

 

[fcbforever]

Cheers for the sarcastic smiley mate - when did I mention the Euro again?

Most of the cash transferring is done because of the Euro. Of which the UK was never part.

 

[Member 5225]

Most of the cash transferring is done because of the Euro. Of which the UK was never part.

Eh? We don't pay into their coffers then? Sorry my bad if that is the case....

 

[devilish]

Don't worry we are going, we've voted out....minor detail that many seem to want to forget!

Well what's you're waiting for.

However don't be crossed if the EU sticks to its No FOM no unrestricted access to the single market. The Tory party is used to have the cake and eat it. However Europe is not the UK.

 

[Member 5225]

The funny thing is that the UK is an EU successful story. Prior to its entrance in the EU the UK was Europe's sick person. Now its a financial powerhouse. Is the EU perfect? Of course not. But if the UK voter want a bigger say in Europe than they should stop sending poorly educated Ukipers who are among the laziest MEPs in Europe and who keeps taken the mickey out of everybody (unless of course they are punching one another). If the UK voter wants more fairness and are pissed off about banks then they should stop electing the rich people/banker's party in government. Its that simple

Post-truth season, I get it.
I disagree wholeheartedly with the premise mate. And certainly don't think the UK has been saved due to the EU!

 

[Member 5225]

Well what's you're waiting for.

However don't be crossed if the EU sticks to its No FOM no unrestricted access to the single market. The Tory party is used to have the cake and eat it. However Europe is not the UK.

Oh now they want to meddle in HOW and WHEN we play our cards? Triggering article50 is a decision/action taken ONLY by the nation involved, when they are ready (done their work behind the scenes).

I know this concept may be hard for some brainwashed to grasp...!

We're clearly not in a rush, why are you (EU)? Never learn!

 

[devilish]

Post-truth season, I get it.
I disagree wholeheartedly with the premise mate. And certainly don't think the UK has been saved due to the EU!

No one is saying that. However the UK's situation improved radically thanks to the EU. No wonder why Brexiteers are now backpeddling furiously while Europe is as cool as a cucumber. Europe isn't the one losing the most out of this. Isn't it true that the UK is better off now then when it joined Europe?

 

[Pexbo]

The funny thing is that the UK is an EU successful story. Prior to its entrance in the EU the UK was Europe's sick person. Now its a financial powerhouse. Is the EU perfect? Of course not. But if the UK voter want a bigger say in Europe than they should stop sending poorly educated Ukipers who are among the laziest MEPs in Europe and who keeps taken the mickey out of everybody (unless of course they are punching one another). If the UK voter wants more fairness and are pissed off about banks then they should stop electing the rich people/banker's party in government. Its that simple

That's pretty silly tbh and I'm a "remoaner"

 

[Member 5225]

No one is saying that. However the UK's situation improved radically thanks to the EU. No wonder why Brexiteers are now backpeddling furiously while Europe is as cool as a cucumber. Europe isn't the one losing the most out of this

But how can you say that as a fact mate? Who knows if it might've been even BETTER by not being part of the EU? (Thank God we didn't get close to the dreaded Euro).

 

[devilish]

Oh now they want to meddle in HOW and WHEN we play our cards? Triggering article50 is a decision/action taken ONLY by the nation involved, when they are ready (done their work behind the scenes).

I know this concept may be hard for some brainwashed to grasp...!

We're clearly not in a rush, why are you (EU)? Never learn!

But wait, weren't you desperate to leave this corrupt organisation whose red tape was dragging you down from ruling the waves? Its only fair for us to think that you couldn't wait to leave. Instead you're still here, speaking about compromises who were the reason why you left and speaking about cliff edges.