Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?


  • Total voters
    194
  • Poll closed .
I'm thinking more along the lines of what both Tories and Labour are going to come up with for their manifesto and subsequent grilling by the media and the public.
As the GE will take place before the end of 2024, probably in the Autumn, if not earlier, they're both going to have to come up with a bit more than 'Stop the Boats' and 'Make Brexit work' and that will have to be by this time next year.

Details, without hare-brained schemes, will be called for.

I suspect "Borrowing for a Purpose" will be both parties 'keystone' policy, because its needed. However, the differences between what the spending will be on, and how it will be repaid is where the differences (such as they are ) will be found between the two and presumably where the media will concentrate its questions.

Yes, these two slogans could come back to haunt both leaders, because apart from very dire or drastic actions from governments, neither will be solved in the interim.

I have argued previously Labour needs something big, something that ranks alongside the establishment of the NHS and the Education Act, both post WW2. These two immense Acts of Parliament which over the years have affected the lives of millions of ordinary folk, these need either a revamp or something else which will have a similar effect, years from now. I am not sure if back in 1940's these two were thought of as 'hare-brained, I was just being born.
 
I suspect "Borrowing for a Purpose" will be both parties 'keystone' policy, because its needed. However, the differences between what the spending will be on, and how it will be repaid is where the differences (such as they are ) will be found between the two and presumably where the media will concentrate its questions.

Yes, these two slogans could come back to haunt both leaders, because apart from very dire or drastic actions from governments, neither will be solved in the interim.

I have argued previously Labour needs something big, something that ranks alongside the establishment of the NHS and the Education Act, both post WW2. These two immense Acts of Parliament which over the years have affected the lives of millions of ordinary folk, these need either a revamp or something else which will have a similar effect, years from now. I am not sure if back in 1940's these two were thought of as 'hare-brained, I was just being born.

I don't think they were hare-brained. I've just read Starmer's climate mission paper he spoke about today. He still sounds like a clueless brexiteer.
 
He sounds as if he's never set foot in the real world. Sounds more like a 10 year old schoolkid's homework project. There were some very funny parts, maybe it's a parody.

I suppose anything Starmer or indeed Sunak say about climate change is taken with a pinch of salt, our lives and ways of living will change, but not to a timetable, that needs the whole world involved on the same page and that is never going to happen. With Climate issues all our leaders can indulge their Don Quixote urges to 'tilt at windmills'.
 
While I was at a bus stop waiting and waiting for a bus to actually arrive, I overheard a conversation between 2 oldish guys.
One was saying that brexit was the main cause of the high inflation in the UK.
And the other said.... well at least we are not now being ruled by those bastards in Brussels.

And that reminded me of how unpopular the EU had become in some peoples minds.
Lots of reasons for that of course.
But one stuck in my mind.
And that was when Margaret Thatcher negotiated the UK Rebate. She cast 'Europe' as something that the UK should fight against as if it was the enemy.

Yes that was a long time ago. But having voted not that long before to at last join the European Economic Community, the Thatcher fight against the EEC to force it to grant the UK the rebate was a significant point in turning 'Europe' into the enemy.
 
While I was at a bus stop waiting and waiting for a bus to actually arrive, I overheard a conversation between 2 oldish guys.
One was saying that brexit was the main cause of the high inflation in the UK.
And the other said.... well at least we are not now being ruled by those bastards in Brussels.

And that reminded me of how unpopular the EU had become in some peoples minds.
Lots of reasons for that of course.
But one stuck in my mind.
And that was when Margaret Thatcher negotiated the UK Rebate. She cast 'Europe' as something that the UK should fight against as if it was the enemy.

Yes that was a long time ago. But having voted not that long before to at last join the European Economic Community, the Thatcher fight against the EEC to force it to grant the UK the rebate was a significant point in turning 'Europe' into the enemy.

Yes, I agree about Maggie, but the history of how the UK had approached joining in the first place needs to be considered, when we had to fight to get into the 'common market' when General DeGaulle kept saying for many years in the late 60's, early 70's, 'Non' to British entry, mainly it seems because Britain (at that time ) was deemed to be the 'sick man of Europe' with wildcat strikes, a economy on the verge of collapse and was (in DeGaulle's terms) too close to the USA. It was assumed that the General thought we would become the USA's 'Trojan Horse'in the EEC.

Then of course when Tony Benn started preaching the "look at the mega companies running Europe as 'rich man's club", an idea originating from the UK's hard left, some people turned off, it was just 'Benn at it again'.Then later there were issues such as the 'straight banana' saga, the ongoing vilification of Jacques Delors in the Daily Mirror; the criminality actually recognised within the EEC itself, that was associated with Edith Cresson's reign; Maggie Thatchers fight for rebate.... and years upon years of 'bad EU press' in the minds of many in the UK built up, and in some cases justifiably so.

However IMO the main reason the anti EU feelings built up to a crescendo was on the passage of a number of Treaties, e.g. Maastricht etc. when although other people in member countries, such as Ireland, Denmark at least, were allowed to vote on these matters, we in the UK were not, but the impression given to the public was it was all the EU's fault. Then there was Tony Blair's attempt to jettison the pound and to take us into the Euro, the so called 'freedom of movement' (deemed by those against) as 'unrestricted', the seeming push for ever closer integration, the EU itself finally becoming a pseudo political power.

The fact that UK overall was benefiting from many aspects of being in the EU, in particular the economy, the SM, etc was lost on the majority of the public in the UK, in particular those living outside the main Cities, where their lot was slowly but surely becoming 'not a happy one', and even back then, many provincial and rural town centres were starting to become 'ghost towns'. Maybe, if there had been a vote on the proposed treaties, then at that time more people in the UK would had perhaps have found out more about the benefits, not just the 'presented' obstacles and who knows it might have had an impact of the actual referendum, if fact there may not have been one at all.

I know many people believe the 'remainer' vote was in fact the majority, because they were all voting for the same thing, to remain inside the EU. Brexit (leave) vote was in fact made up of lots of people with lots of different issues, moans, grouses, etc. who when Cameron gave them the opportunity to concentrate their fire, via the referendum, they did exactly that...and a 'single shot', was all it took to provide the breech for the UK's departure from the EU.

Maybe in another decade some UK (whats left of it) politician/party will make a serious effort to rejoin the EU, but this time there will be no refunds, there will be need to join the Euro, to accept full integration of powers, etc. Can you see, at present, any current Westminster politician, putting forward a manifesto, based on that?
 
Yes, I agree about Maggie, but the history of how the UK had approached joining in the first place needs to be considered, when we had to fight to get into the 'common market' when General DeGaulle kept saying for many years in the late 60's, early 70's, 'Non' to British entry, mainly it seems because Britain (at that time ) was deemed to be the 'sick man of Europe' with wildcat strikes, a economy on the verge of collapse and was (in DeGaulle's terms) too close to the USA. It was assumed that the General thought we would become the USA's 'Trojan Horse'in the EEC.

Then of course when Tony Benn started preaching the "look at the mega companies running Europe as 'rich man's club", an idea originating from the UK's hard left, some people turned off, it was just 'Benn at it again'.Then later there were issues such as the 'straight banana' saga, the ongoing vilification of Jacques Delors in the Daily Mirror; the criminality actually recognised within the EEC itself, that was associated with Edith Cresson's reign; Maggie Thatchers fight for rebate.... and years upon years of 'bad EU press' in the minds of many in the UK built up, and in some cases justifiably so.

However IMO the main reason the anti EU feelings built up to a crescendo was on the passage of a number of Treaties, e.g. Maastricht etc. when although other people in member countries, such as Ireland, Denmark at least, were allowed to vote on these matters, we in the UK were not, but the impression given to the public was it was all the EU's fault. Then there was Tony Blair's attempt to jettison the pound and to take us into the Euro, the so called 'freedom of movement' (deemed by those against) as 'unrestricted', the seeming push for ever closer integration, the EU itself finally becoming a pseudo political power.

The fact that UK overall was benefiting from many aspects of being in the EU, in particular the economy, the SM, etc was lost on the majority of the public in the UK, in particular those living outside the main Cities, where their lot was slowly but surely becoming 'not a happy one', and even back then, many provincial and rural town centres were starting to become 'ghost towns'. Maybe, if there had been a vote on the proposed treaties, then at that time more people in the UK would had perhaps have found out more about the benefits, not just the 'presented' obstacles and who knows it might have had an impact of the actual referendum, if fact there may not have been one at all.

I know many people believe the 'remainer' vote was in fact the majority, because they were all voting for the same thing, to remain inside the EU. Brexit (leave) vote was in fact made up of lots of people with lots of different issues, moans, grouses, etc. who when Cameron gave them the opportunity to concentrate their fire, via the referendum, they did exactly that...and a 'single shot', was all it took to provide the breech for the UK's departure from the EU.

Maybe in another decade some UK (whats left of it) politician/party will make a serious effort to rejoin the EU, but this time there will be no refunds, there will be need to join the Euro, to accept full integration of powers, etc. Can you see, at present, any current Westminster politician, putting forward a manifesto, based on that?

Yes. This is a far more comprehensive history and assessment of the highly negative perception of Europe in general and the EEC and eventually EU in particular than my single point.
And of course it included the total failure of David Cameron to 'extract' any form of reform of the EU; primarily because the EU nations saw no particular need to reform just to placate Cameron.
Anyway. All in the past now and we are where we are.
 
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jun/22/leave-voters-brexit-success-poll


Only 18% of 2016 leave voters believe Brexit has been a success, according to polling for the thinktank UK in a Changing Europe – but 61% think it will turn out well in the end.

Seven years on from the referendum campaign, the pollsters Public First asked more than 4,000 leavers how they felt now about Brexit. Less than a fifth of them – 18% – said it had gone well, or very well, while 30% said it had gone neither well nor badly, and 26% said it was still too soon to say.


Wonder what the 18% are taking.
More interesting would be how the 61% think 'it will turn out well in the end'.
Explain how on a postcard to starmerandsunakunicorns.com, Sunlit Uplands, GB
 
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jun/22/leave-voters-brexit-success-poll


Only 18% of 2016 leave voters believe Brexit has been a success, according to polling for the thinktank UK in a Changing Europe – but 61% think it will turn out well in the end.

Seven years on from the referendum campaign, the pollsters Public First asked more than 4,000 leavers how they felt now about Brexit. Less than a fifth of them – 18% – said it had gone well, or very well, while 30% said it had gone neither well nor badly, and 26% said it was still too soon to say.


Wonder what the 18% are taking.
More interesting would be how the 61% think 'it will turn out well in the end'.
Explain how on a postcard to starmerandsunakunicorns.com, Sunlit Uplands, GB

Personally I'm more surprised about that 30+26% still on the fence seven years later. It points to apparently anything sticking by and a good percentage of people not caring.
 
Maybe in another decade some UK (whats left of it) politician/party will make a serious effort to rejoin the EU, but this time there will be no refunds, there will be need to join the Euro, to accept full integration of powers, etc. Can you see, at present, any current Westminster politician, putting forward a manifesto, based on that?

Yes it will be a while yet before we get any momentum to rejoin that politicians can tap into. It's going to be "make the best of this situation" that's expected from the leaders. Probably 10 years of struggling to make it work would see some change, politicians and people in general need to learn and comprehend the EU rules that can't be undermined or cherry picked as that is what holds it together. The shit will have to hit the fan for real for an abrupt change.

A lot of the strong brexiters talked about a 5-10 year hit to the economy being worth it to be independent etc. We're 3 years after leaving but there's so many problems worldwide since and the Pound to Euro is at the same level range for the last 15 years, there's no definite sense except for minor issues. With all the upcoming technology changes, AI, cashless societies and credit living and god knows what other climate/migration issues it's difficult to see a stable timeline forming to judge the effects. We're all in for a turbulent time it seems.
 
It's the equivalent of what used to be called 'the British stiff upper lip syndrome, all singing "Keep right on to the end of the Road". ;)

Starting at the end of next year, the road will start getting even rockier when the real Brexit comes into play. Just depends how far down the road they can put up with it. They'll probably turn back eventually as the road gets rougher.

My point isn't that there's any chance to return in the near future - just how long they want to prolong it by not acknowledging that it was an extremely bad idea (major understatement) and stop diversifying further.
 
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A lot of brexit regret in the room. Even those that people that still support it agree it’s shit.
 
If he thinks he's going to make brexit work, then he's mad. If he gets in at the next GE he's going to have a hell of a lot of explaining to do for five years, or however long he lasts.

He doesn’t think that. I don’t know why you think he does.

Obviously you and I disagree. But he’s sloganeering to not marginalise the dickheads and racists.

Nothing he has ever said has suggested he thinks there’s an upside to Brexit. ‘Make Brexit Work’ is a defence mechanism. Not a policy.

Its working.
 
He doesn’t think that. I don’t know why you think he does.

Obviously you and I disagree. But he’s sloganeering to not marginalise the dickheads and racists.

Nothing he has ever said has suggested he thinks there’s an upside to Brexit. ‘Make Brexit Work’ is a defence mechanism. Not a policy.

Its working.

If he's lying just to get elected, why not just say he'll give a million pounds to everyone who votes for him. Neither is going to happen.

At some point in the next year a manifesto and policy will be drawn up, upon which people will vote. People will also not forget what he's been saying.
The most difficult years of the full introduction of Brexit (after the end of grace periods etc ) will start exactly around the time the next GE takes place at the end of next year.

I suspect the Tories will not be too unhappy to hand the reins to Labour during those years.
 


When's Brexit going to start? What exactly is he expecting to happen? You've left - that was Brexit. Everything else is complete b*ll*x.

No, you don't understand. The £350M a year for the NHS isn't here yet, more people are being forced into poverty, and Britain is still completely shit. Naturally this means that Brexit hasn't started yet, because if it had then we'd all be wearing golden crowns and our willies will have gained an extra two inches.

History has taught us that wars and pandemics never happened before 2019. The war in Ukraine and COVID are why we don't have three inch willies yet.
 
No, you don't understand. The £350M a year for the NHS isn't here yet, more people are being forced into poverty, and Britain is still completely shit. Naturally this means that Brexit hasn't started yet, because if it had then we'd all be wearing golden crowns and our willies will have gained an extra two inches.

History has taught us that wars and pandemics never happened before 2019. The war in Ukraine and COVID are why we don't have three inch willies yet.

Just as well Covid and Ukraine didn't affect people outside the UK. Everyone outside the Uk now have big willies, even the women.
 
That QT, though a small sample, perfectly highlighted the (lack of) IQ from the majority of Brexit nuts. Serious question, was there even one serious Brexit supporter on the show that showed a hint of intelligence?
 
We're still dealing with the initial fallout here in Italy - today I'm going to help a friend who has been caught up in the "stripping away of rights you enjoyed in your country of residence before Brexit". This time it's about exchange of driving licences, which previously we could do very easily by paying 100 euros. Even if you were able to pass an Italian driving test, the law here restricts new drivers to very low-powered vehicles for a lengthy period of time. Most Brits here living in the countryside have 4x4s, because you need them in the winter.

It's just one stressful thing after another.
 
Morbid curiosity overcame me, so I watched the QT Brexit special live. Not an advert for the best of Britain.
 


1:04 onwards is the most telling thing

"whatever you think about Brexit, you've got to get on with your neighbours right"

"If you have good trading relations with your neighbours you stand a lot better chance"

We had that and had a very good seat at the table but decided to tell them to stuff it. Some wanting to bend the arm of the EU with no cards to play and others imagining this easy world trade that is logistically harder, costlier and limited. You wouldn't put up barriers to trading with the next town for produce and services, why do it for our nearest neighbours on a country level?
 
It's not a matter of 'worth' it's a matter of practicality. The numbers of people all around the world who are being targeted for persecution, jail or death, by their own people is massive.
Practically the UK cannot set up safe routes to save them all. It seems the UK has set up safe routes for asylum seekers from; the refugee camps coping with the millions displaced by the war in Syria; for Afgan's who served or helped out the UK forces and whose lives are a risk; people from Hong Kong and refugees from Ukraine.
There is no procedure for these people to even apply and be assessed then rejected if we deem fit. The only way is to enter the "illegally" then begin the process.

Ultimately this topic is being exacerbated by the policies of the Tory government so they can continue their "culture wars" and make people like you believe this is the number 1 issue in the UK.