Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

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  • Poll closed .
Maticmaker said:
I am afraid that applies to you not me. I have consistently made the point about how in my life time UK governments have approached the subject of immigration and in particular asylum, how this has impacted on at least three or maybe four generations of UK populace, and how until Brexit no one really talked about immigration or asylum, then when they did with help from Farage and Co....most got it wrong.

You may not have been talking about perceptions and lack of understanding, but I was, I have made no claims and I am not playing games, I am simple giving my thoughts, perceptions if you insist, and why I think the way I do.
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I've tried to stay out of this argument but this is contradiction at its highest. It's impacted three of four generations but no-one talked about. Where were you living? Because it wasn't in the UK I lived in for fifty years. To quote an old saying: Pull the other one, it's got bells on.

You are playing games, it's your style.

The posters left in here are not as dumb as all the Brexiters who swallow all the rubbish spouted by the government.

Farage was a dodgy second-hand car salesman and the gullibles bought the car. Before it left the garage the engine fell out and the wheels fell off.

Ironically because of Brexit, immigration has increased and will continue to increase, without the climate issues. They were also warned about that in Project Fear. That's what the Brexiters voted for. They insisted they knew that.
 
Maticmaker said:
I am afraid that applies to you not me. I have consistently made the point about how in my life time UK governments have approached the subject of immigration and in particular asylum, how this has impacted on at least three or maybe four generations of UK populace, and how until Brexit no one really talked about immigration or asylum, then when they did with help from Farage and Co....most got it wrong.

You may not have been talking about perceptions and lack of understanding, but I was, I have made no claims and I am not playing games, I am simple giving my thoughts, perceptions if you insist, and why I think the way I do.
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You see the bold part that's the claim. You claim that generations of the UK populace have been impacted by asylum seekers. Do you know how many asylum seekers the UK received and are currently processing?
 
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Paul the Wolf said:
've tried to stay out of this argument but this is contradiction at its highest. It's impacted three of four generations but no-one talked about. Where were you living? Because it wasn't in the UK I lived in for fifty years. To quote an old saying: Pull the other one, it's got bells on.
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Wondered when you would put in an appearance Paul?

Perhaps we are talking about different aspects of generations, on that assumption (please note @JPRouve).

I am talking of ten year periods, possibly 70's but definitely 80's, 90's, 00's in fact right up to Brexit in 2016, any attempt to open up debate around immigration/asylum either aroused no interest whats so ever, or was shouted down at meetings. I was still a member of the Labour party then and remember someone trying to raise a question from the floor, which a local MP slammed down as out of order.
Also of course Gordon Brown found to his cost when an old lady in Rochdale asked him about immigration, as I remember a fairly innocuous one, Gordon went on to allow his statement about 'bigots' to be overheard, from that point on with the Tory press in full cry everything shifted up a gear!
 
Maticmaker said:
Wondered when you would put in an appearance Paul?

Perhaps we are talking about different aspects of generations, on that assumption (please note @JPRouve).

I am talking of ten year periods, possibly 70's but definitely 80's, 90's, 00's in fact right up to Brexit in 2016, any attempt to open up debate around immigration/asylum either aroused no interest whats so ever, or was shouted down at meetings. I was still a member of the Labour party then and remember someone trying to raise a question from the floor, which a local MP slammed down as out of order.
Also of course Gordon Brown found to his cost when an old lady in Rochdale asked him about immigration, as I remember a fairly innocuous one, Gordon went on to allow his his statement about 'bigots' to be overheard, from that point on with the Tory press in full cry everything shifted up a gear!
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How have these generations been impacted by asylum seekers?

But lets say that you are being honest and only talked about perceptions. What is the UK government supposed to do to fix a(from a demographic standpoint) nonexistent asylum seekier issue?
 
Maticmaker said:
Wondered when you would put in an appearance Paul?

Perhaps we are talking about different aspects of generations, on that assumption (please note @JPRouve).

I am talking of ten year periods, possibly 70's but definitely 80's, 90's, 00's in fact right up to Brexit in 2016, any attempt to open up debate around immigration/asylum either aroused no interest whats so ever, or was shouted down at meetings. I was still a member of the Labour party then and remember someone trying to raise a question from the floor, which a local MP slammed down as out of order.
Also of course Gordon Brown found to his cost when an old lady in Rochdale asked him about immigration, as I remember a fairly innocuous one, Gordon went on to allow his his statement about 'bigots' to be overheard, from that point on with the Tory press in full cry everything shifted up a gear!
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You're playing games again.
Asylum seekers have nothing to do with Brexit other than Farage's scary poster (no Europeans on it, remember) for the gullibles and that the UK are no longer part of the Dubin Agreement and can't send them anywhere.

Whether any politician dared to appear openly racist from Enoch Powell in the 60s with his Rivers of Blood throughout the next few decades is irrelevant.

What you said was how this has impacted on at least three or maybe four generations of UK populace, and how until Brexit no one really talked about immigration or asylum.

Forget the politicians, explain the bolded part. The UK has never changed in my lifetime. The only difference seems to be that it's quite acceptable to be openly xenophobic and racist since Brexit for some. They still talked about it but not without fear.

For the majority of people I know who actually admitted the real reason why they voted Brexit, it was rarely about actual European people or this latter invented thing called sovereignty which every EU country had except the UK for some reason or even the most ridiculous thing of all - trade.
The most common answer was "Muslims and asylum seekers" Amazing how people are so easily fooled.
 
Maticmaker said:
Wondered when you would put in an appearance Paul?

Perhaps we are talking about different aspects of generations, on that assumption (please note @JPRouve).

I am talking of ten year periods, possibly 70's but definitely 80's, 90's, 00's in fact right up to Brexit in 2016, any attempt to open up debate around immigration/asylum either aroused no interest whats so ever, or was shouted down at meetings. I was still a member of the Labour party then and remember someone trying to raise a question from the floor, which a local MP slammed down as out of order.
Also of course Gordon Brown found to his cost when an old lady in Rochdale asked him about immigration, as I remember a fairly innocuous one, Gordon went on to allow his statement about 'bigots' to be overheard, from that point on with the Tory press in full cry everything shifted up a gear!
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What exactly is the problem with immigration? The population is getting older (me included) and we need outside labour, Most immigrants come here to work and I’m sure would rather do that legally (with taxes etc) rather than on the black market, which only benefits gang bosses. While there may be some who abuse the system, there are also some native born Brits who abuse the system and I don’t see that as a compelling argument to demonise the whole system of social security protection.

The whole debate is a deflection from long-term underfunding of public services (the old quote about Brits wanting European public services and US tax rates), and, playing on xenophobic tendencies, foreigners are the obvious scapegoat. We have somehow turned what should be a competitive advantage (an English-speaking country which is relatively normal) into an energising issue for scum like Farage.
 
Mods, it's been many days of this circling discussion on immigration. Can it be moved to its own thread now? Its link to Brexit is becoming more tenuous by the day.
 
Maticmaker said:
Wondered when you would put in an appearance Paul?

Perhaps we are talking about different aspects of generations, on that assumption (please note @JPRouve).

I am talking of ten year periods, possibly 70's but definitely 80's, 90's, 00's in fact right up to Brexit in 2016, any attempt to open up debate around immigration/asylum either aroused no interest whats so ever, or was shouted down at meetings. I was still a member of the Labour party then and remember someone trying to raise a question from the floor, which a local MP slammed down as out of order.
Also of course Gordon Brown found to his cost when an old lady in Rochdale asked him about immigration, as I remember a fairly innocuous one, Gordon went on to allow his statement about 'bigots' to be overheard, from that point on with the Tory press in full cry everything shifted up a gear!
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Do you actually know what a generation is because 10 year periods are not generations!
 
Dumbstar said:
Mods, it's been many days of this circling discussion on immigration. Can it be moved to its own thread now? Its link to Brexit is becoming more tenuous by the day.
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Brexit is more than immigration but immigration is the main reason 52% among the more intellectually challenged voted no on that day. Until that issue is addressed honestly, there will be on real progress on the question of the UK’s relationship with the EU.
 
Trade deal with Aus and NZ comes into effect tonight. I think this might be the turning point for Brexit, the UK will make it's comeback.
 
Britain’s future is outside the EU, the Labour leader, Keir Starmer, has said, as he promised to make Brexit work.

Writing in the Daily Express newspaper, Starmer – who campaigned for Remain in the 2016 referendum – also said he would not be seeking a return to freedom of movement.

The comments are Starmer’s latest pitch to Brexit-backing voters ahead of the next general election, with the Labour leader promising to improve on the UK-EU deal reached by Boris Johnson, PA reported.

“If we are to make Brexit work, we need a government with the vision and the focus to deliver it,” he wrote.

“As Rishi Sunak heads off to meet with Emmanuel Macron on Thursday, there are no signs that he or his Government have any proper plan to deliver that better future for our country.

“Britain’s future is outside the EU. Not in the single market, not in the customs union, not with a return to freedom of movement. Those arguments are in the past, where they belong.”

He said that the current deal between London and Brussels is “paper-thin”, arguing that it had “stifled Britain’s potential and hugely weighted trade terms towards the EU”.

The future is dim.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
The future is dim.
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Depends on where you stand. I think it spares us EUropeans from the hassle of dealing with British charme offenses. Let that tosser win the election, and demand better conditions for the mighty UK. Should make for some good lols.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
What you said was how this has impacted on at least three or maybe four generations of UK populace, and how until Brexit no one really talked about immigration or asylum.

Forget the politicians, explain the bolded part. The UK has never changed in my lifetime. The only difference seems to be that it's quite acceptable to be openly xenophobic and racist since Brexit for some. They still talked about it but not without fear.
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First of all, as pointed out by another poster, it was decades not generations. I accept that criticism.

I was referring to my experience in particular with official Labour party matters, at least those I was involved in at the time, but it applied in the general populace as well. There was a reluctance to even mentioning immigration, for fear of being classed as racist etc. No debate was officially allowed, even to castigate racists, and as a result Farage filled the gap and attracted thousands of what became known as 'red wall' voters away from Labour, especially after Gordon Brown's unfortunate comments.

The Brexit referendum ultimately (and entirely for the wrong reasons) therefore became the legitimate opportunity for many to express their views about officialdom and the lack of consultation over a number of decisions taken relating to EU matters. During these decades various agreements in the EU were reached, and the populace in many EU countries were allowed a vote on such matters (didn't Ireland have two or three?) but the populace in the UK were not given a vote. This built up resentment not just about 'freedom of movement,' 'closer political union', etc but also the underlying concerns of immigration for many in the population... the fact is no one in either main party would be honest with the population. As mentioned earlier, Farage filled the gap, he wrapped everything up together and for the politically uninitiated, it was a simple message, freedom of movement was to be feared, sovereignty was at stake, immigration was in chaos, and it was all the EU's fault.

In my opinion the 'no platforming' discussions around immigration, led to the UK leaving the EU.

Incidentally Paul, when did you move to France?
 
Paul the Wolf said:
Britain’s future is outside the EU, the Labour leader, Keir Starmer, has said, as he promised to make Brexit work.

Writing in the Daily Express newspaper, Starmer – who campaigned for Remain in the 2016 referendum – also said he would not be seeking a return to freedom of movement.

The comments are Starmer’s latest pitch to Brexit-backing voters ahead of the next general election, with the Labour leader promising to improve on the UK-EU deal reached by Boris Johnson, PA reported.

“If we are to make Brexit work, we need a government with the vision and the focus to deliver it,” he wrote.

“As Rishi Sunak heads off to meet with Emmanuel Macron on Thursday, there are no signs that he or his Government have any proper plan to deliver that better future for our country.

“Britain’s future is outside the EU. Not in the single market, not in the customs union, not with a return to freedom of movement. Those arguments are in the past, where they belong.”

He said that the current deal between London and Brussels is “paper-thin”, arguing that it had “stifled Britain’s potential and hugely weighted trade terms towards the EU”.

The future is dim.
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It was dim as soon as the vote was counted
 
2ndTouch said:
Depends on where you stand. I think it spares us EUropeans from the hassle of dealing with British charme offenses. Let that tosser win the election, and demand better conditions for the mighty UK. Should make for some good lols.
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Starmer doesn't understand the EU or Brexit and never has. Hopeless politician. Don't think he'll last very long if he wins the next GE.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
Starmer doesn't understand the EU or Brexit and never has. Hopeless politician. Don't think he'll last very long if he wins the next GE.
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maybe, maybe not, but he can't be any worse than the lot that he'd be replacing
 
Maticmaker said:
First of all, as pointed out by another poster, it was decades not generations. I accept that criticism.

I was referring to my experience in particular with official Labour party matters, at least those I was involved in at the time, but it applied in the general populace as well. There was a reluctance to even mentioning immigration, for fear of being classed as racist etc. No debate was officially allowed, even to castigate racists, and as a result Farage filled the gap and attracted thousands of what became known as 'red wall' voters away from Labour, especially after Gordon Brown's unfortunate comments.

The Brexit referendum ultimately (and entirely for the wrong reasons) therefore became the legitimate opportunity for many to express their views about officialdom and the lack of consultation over a number of decisions taken relating to EU matters. During these decades various agreements in the EU were reached, and the populace in many EU countries were allowed a vote on such matters (didn't Ireland have two or three?) but the populace in the UK were not given a vote. This built up resentment not just about 'freedom of movement,' 'closer political union', etc but also the underlying concerns of immigration for many in the population... the fact is no one in either main party would be honest with the population. As mentioned earlier, Farage filled the gap, he wrapped everything up together and for the politically uninitiated, it was a simple message, freedom of movement was to be feared, sovereignty was at stake, immigration was in chaos, and it was all the EU's fault.

In my opinion the 'no platforming' discussions around immigration, led to the UK leaving the EU.

Incidentally Paul, when did you move to France?
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I didn't mention decades/generations. I said the UK's attitude towards immigration and foreigners has always been the same but people can pretend otherwise if they wish.

I didn't want to enter a large discussion about immigration

I left in 2007 but Farage had long been spouting his nonsense long before that. Nice easy job doing nothing for the country, just standing up every now and again spouting his racist bile.
At least his pension and those of his cohorts will be paid by the UK. Very poor value for money. Johnson had been telling lies as journalist from about the same time.

When I left, I was still MD of two Uk trading companies until 2016. Also I am aware what happens in other parts of the world.

What do British people expect the future to hold now (excluding climate problems)?
We do know that immigration will increase much quicker, we do know that Brexit has done severe damage to the economy with much worse to come. And we do know that the UK has lost a lot of its power in the world.

What is the future?
 
Paul the Wolf said:
The current lot are hopeless. But being the best of the worst is not a great endorsement.
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Indeed, the problem with the Labour party is that half of it wants an unelectable Socialist paradise and the other half are left-wing Conservatives - or at last that's what it looks like to me
 
Red in STL said:
Indeed, the problem with the Labour party is that half of it wants an unelectable Socialist paradise and the other half are left-wing Conservatives - or at last that's what it looks like to me
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Starmer's left his Socialist paradise behind. His focus is on the voters Labour lost to the Brexiters. If I was still in the UK I would have hoped that with an open goal for Labour he would try and appeal to more people who know that Brexit can never possibly succeed. He may lose more voters than he hopes to get back. What a prospect.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
Starmer doesn't understand the EU or Brexit and never has. Hopeless politician. Don't think he'll last very long if he wins the next GE.
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I'd be very happy for him to be given the boot asap. But it's imperative he wins the election first. At all costs.
 
I had an interview with a company last week who are setting up in EMEA. They were originally planning for London but have now jumped to Dublin because of Brexit and being able to get the freedom of movement for people that they will need to cover certain languages
 
I found all the brexit voters. They're at the same camping in France I'm vacationing apparently. Innit.
 
KirkDuyt said:
I found all the brexit voters. They're at the same camping in France I'm vacationing apparently. Innit.
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If they held a leave the EU vote in Algarve during july and august, Algarve would leave the EU with brexiteer votes alone.
 
Makes sense. Let the whole audience to a man/woman squirm without hiding behind the remoaners' cloak. Maybe give them all a test as they enter the studio: man, woman, TV, newspaper, video. Something like that.

I'll be watching, and I never watch BBC now.
 
Dumbstar said:
Makes sense. Let the whole audience to a man/woman squirm without hiding behind the remoaners' cloak. Maybe give them all a test as they enter the studio: man, woman, TV, newspaper, video. Something like that.

I'll be watching, and I never watch BBC now.
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It's in Clacton-on-Sea ffs. The majority will still be massively pro-Brexit, with the only point of interest likely to be how many openly admit to immigration being their main reason for voting and the language they couch it in.
There will be some nauseatingly sycophantic Johnson apologists too.
 
Jippy said:
It's in Clacton-on-Sea ffs. The majority will still be massively pro-Brexit, with the only point of interest likely to be how many openly admit to immigration being their main reason for voting and the language they couch it in.
There will be some nauseatingly sycophantic Johnson apologists too.
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The BBC had just given up on impartiality apparently.
 
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