As an Irishman I should be enjoying the schadenfreude but Brexit and Britain, as per usual, is fecking over the people in NI. Just end the madness for christ sake.
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
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I don't think I'll be around to see that. Neither side wants the other. Maybe when all the current youngsters on the Caf are old and frail.
I do actually look younger than him.
He's a bit of a prat despite his pro-EU outlook.
If you listened to his related live broadcast which I did for fifteen minutes until he admitted, "Actually I have a Uk registered car but as I only drive about 5000km a year I didn't think it was worth registering it."
So he's driving an illegal car with no insurance, no registration, no MOT (Contrôle technique) near us, there are lots of other Brits who haven't registered their cars.
Cars are only a tip of the iceberg with the Brits who don't think the rules apply to them.
Before Brexit 75% of the cars in the car park were British. You notice on the video that these cars are parked on the side of the road which leads to the airport. It's a quiet road but to avoid paying the car park fees they leave them there. The police are very lax but starting to get fed up. Lots of crushed British cars soon.
Maybe but there could be some kind of EFTA halfway house before then. The tragedy of the last 6 years is that the British government (of whatever stripe) just had to kick the can down the road for another 10 years and let demographics take care of the problem. Instead, we’ve been royally fecked over by the last hoorah of the boomer generation who, brought up on WWII tales and poisoned by anti-EU propaganda , could never accept Britain in a partnership of nations, even one in which we had the best deal.
Sadly, I don't see it. The UK was in EFTA in 1960 but were left behind and had been dying to join the EC from the beginning. This 'member of the customs union' or 'member of the single market' was all the political talk in the UK not only by the Tories but by Labour as well. For a country the size of the UK, either they're in the EU entirely or they're not. There's no way they're going to partake in something and have no say or representation.
As for the boomer generation, I'm part of it and many people I know who were brought up on WW2 films and Westerns. Nasty Nazis and Red Indians. Those who can think for ourselves would not be swayed by the propaganda. Many people I know in the generation below are at least as gullible as some of us. My father who fought in WW2 would never have entertained leaving the EU.
I don't know what the answer is but Starmer's "Make Brexit Work" makes me cringe. Then trying to convince the EU that the UK won't start all over again would be a very hard task. Depressingly stupid mistake the UK made.
I do actually look younger than him.
He's a bit of a prat despite his pro-EU outlook.
If you listened to his related live broadcast which I did for fifteen minutes until he admitted, "Actually I have a Uk registered car but as I only drive about 5000km a year I didn't think it was worth registering it."
So he's driving an illegal car with no insurance, no registration, no MOT (Contrôle technique) near us, there are lots of other Brits who haven't registered their cars.
Cars are only a tip of the iceberg with the Brits who don't think the rules apply to them.
Before Brexit 75% of the cars in the car park were British. You notice on the video that these cars are parked on the side of the road which leads to the airport. It's a quiet road but to avoid paying the car park fees they leave them there. The police are very lax but starting to get fed up. Lots of crushed British cars soon.
That's the part that I don't get, they take big legal risk if they are caught.
Some of them don't realise they are doing wrong. Some don't want the cost of registering their cars, changing headlights, registration documents etc amongst other things (VAT, duty letter of conformity from the manufacturer there are lots of things), it's quite an expensive process and half the cars are old cars which are worth little. When I moved here in 2007 I changed my car registration at the time straight away.
It wasn't legal even before Brexit not to register the car.
The other (or one of the other reasons) is that they would have to register the car at their French home address. Now, are they actually living in France legally with either a Carte de Séjour or have French nationality or are they living in their "holiday home" and have surpassed their 90/180 day allowance? Are they registered in the French system? Do they have health insurance? So many questions.
Are we swamped with illegal British immigrants?
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/sep/03/leave-eu-liquidation-brexit-arron-banks
Aaron Banks ‘writes off £7m loan’ as Leave.EU goes into liquidation
Brexit campaign group fronted by Nigel Farage leaves thousands in unpaid fines for data law breaches
Aaron Banks ‘writes off £7m loan’ as Leave.EU goes into liquidation
Brexit campaign group fronted by Nigel Farage leaves thousands in unpaid fines for data law breaches
Was just reading that Paul. Seems all above board, doesn't it?
Mmm, no mention of any Putin connection either.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/sep/04/travellers-delays-uk-border-control-calais-brexit
Late on Saturday, one traveller took to Twitter to try to contact the Home Office, saying: “A 260-minute wait at the Port of Calais with two young kids. Delayed further to a 10pm ferry, why were nine UK border force lanes shut!?!”
But surely it's France's or the EU's fault, Truss and Moggy.
Or is it possible that the effects of how moronic the decision to leave the EU was, is finally dawning on the gullibles?
Late on Saturday, one traveller took to Twitter to try to contact the Home Office, saying: “A 260-minute wait at the Port of Calais with two young kids. Delayed further to a 10pm ferry, why were nine UK border force lanes shut!?!”
But surely it's France's or the EU's fault, Truss and Moggy.
Or is it possible that the effects of how moronic the decision to leave the EU was, is finally dawning on the gullibles?
Have to say that I strongly disagree with the bit on Starmer and I'm not sure that your cringing really fits in with what you yourself think on the prospects of UK-EU relations.
You yourself (rightly and sadly) think that there is no immediate prospect of the UK joining the EU. By immediate, we're both talking years, if not decades and, by the point of such a demographic and societal change, the EU will likely look very different to what it looks like now. So....what's the solution?
You say there's no chance of rejoining imminently. Agreed.
The other option is mass suicide I guess and allowing another people to start over.
Or there can be an acceptance that, rightly or wrongly, this is the situation now and the best thing to do is to try to make the situation work? We can start off by not having a government that seems purpose built to antagonise our closest neighbours and allies? That doesn't threaten to break international law on an almost weekly basis? That doesn't threaten British participation in exchange programmes, scientific research etc etc.
There are of course a whole range of possible relationships with the EU, ranging from being a fully paid up member using the euro to putting up the barricades and starting a trade war. There are also almost infinite possibilities in between.
So rather than slitting our wrists on a daily basis and short of a mass replacement of 65 million people...then yes. The only current possible option for a sensible politician is to 'make Brexit work'. What that means will be different for different people (for JRM, a bonfire of worker's rights, decoupling from EU rules and policies just for the sake of it; for me the stop to the antagonistic approach, looking for areas we can continue to co-operate in etc) and then build from there in years to come.
The UK are still on course for pulling further and further away from the EU and will do so at least for the rest of this decade. Notwithstanding what extra rifts there are between the UK and the EU. Also over the next five years there are regulations and other agreements that have yet to be put in place, such as the new visa system and export data system. Plus the grace periods which will expire over the next few years.
At some point the Uk has not only to reverse what as happened so far but what is going to happen over the next few years.
As Starmer has ruled out rejoining the CU or the SM then perhaps he could give a hint as to how he can make Brexit work which is the equivalent of having a car with no engine thinks he's going to win the British GP.
Obviously there is zero trust of the UK and they would have no chance of rejoining the EU, CU or SM in the foreseeable future.
Problem with Starmer that his only project is to get Labour voted in and not to upset the Brexiters. He obviously still thinks and from his past record that he can choose which items on the EU menu he would like to select.
Of course there has to be some hope that the UK will recover somehow from what they've inflicted upon themselves, with the worst still yet to come. How they do it neither Starmer nor you or I know what that is. The gravity of what the UK have done has definitely not sunk in yet.
There may be areas like research or security cooperation that the EU and the UK can do together. But that really does not solve the problem.
But again Paul with respect, you've done more of the same there. There's no solutions, or even attempts at solutions, just more talking about how everything is going to shit.
So your opinion is that UK is better off in the EU/CU/SM. Great, we agree.
Your opinion is also that (rightly) the UK has zero chance of rejoining the EU, CM or SM in the near future (again, agreed) so surely Starmer trying (and failing) to do so would be totally pointless?
So again, the options are either try to do something you yourself say is impossible in the near future (and which would not gain traction in the current climate here anyway) or try to make the best of the current situation. Constantly calling people idiots and slashing our wrists may be fine on an internet forum I guess but its not really the way to get into power in any country, an important thing to do considering the current party's animosity towards the EU.
Its not about choosing which items on the EU menu he would like to select. There are of course different relationships with the EU and different bits which can (ie Erasmus) and can't be negotiated (ie free movement of goods without free movement of people).
Having a better relationship with our closest neighbour, trying to smooth things as much as possible and finding areas of co-operation is making Brexit work. Constantly talking about how stupid people are and how shit the UK is and will be is not, especially not for a politician hoping to win power.
To keep tight as a block, the EU could not allow the UK cherrypicking what they like on top of an already “special” status as a member of the Union. Geopolitics can surely force a rethink, but a paid-membership model to cherrypick again what the UK likes, is just a pipe dream because it would do even more harm to the block, opening the can to any member’s own cherrypicking. Unfortunately, the only way for the times being is the UK going through these truly difficult times in accordance with the consequences of their own decision, which, stay assured, makes both the UK and the EU weaker, and Western Europe dangerously divided as for Truss’ friend or foe alarming jibe.
Yes I understand that. So what is Starmer proposing to do. Bearing in mind that he has also said like the Tories that the NI protocol needs re-negotiating.
In two years time or less there will be a GE in the UK. What magic bunny is Starmer going to pull out of the hat to get people to vote for Labour. Two years may sound a long time but he's got to have some sort of policy in the planning.
How is being part of Erasmus going to solve even a tiny fraction of the problems or agreements on research or science. The only way to solve the problem is to scrap all this bravado and actually align gradually back towards the EU;
So what is Starmer's plan. He's going to pretend to think Brexit is a good idea so that he can con the Labour brexiters into voting for Labour. That makes him now just as bad as the Tories conning the British people into thinking Brexit was a good idea in the first place. Or maybe grow a backbone and come out and say that Brexit was a really bad idea and that the UK should from day one start to regain the trust and confidence of the EU and the rest of the world and do all they can to convince the EU that they should come back which even if they start now will take a long time, long after Starmer is no longer an MP.
Brexit cannot work or rather the UK cannot properly function economically, and this has been said for getting on for 7 years now, if the UK is outside the EU the CU and the SM.
It's a sad thing but people wouldn't listen and for a generation it's too late.
Its worth noting that the EU clearly also feel there is some scope for wiggle-room there. Let's not pretend that they haven't. They've attended negotiations (not something you do when you are holding fast on the idea that there will be no re-negotiation at all) as well as made their own suggestions as to how to fix the problem. Part of the problem currently is that certain suggestions which require a degree of good will from both sides cannot proceed at all with one side having vilified the other for the past 6 years and continuing to make immature and inflammatory comments and threatening unilateral actions.
I'm not saying that being part of Erasmus will solve all the problems. I'm saying that there are areas of co-operation, areas where things can be smoothed and areas where the relationship can be improved. None of that is going to happen under the current ideologically extreme government. They may happen with a government that doesn't relish constant conflict with the EU. Trust eventually begets more trust and begets some leeway on certain issues if need be (ie the NI protocol).
Again, Starmer coming out and saying you're all fools, this was a massive mistake and we're going to spend the next few years begging the EU to take us back in 20-30 years time.....is going to lead to one thing and one thing only. And its not a Labour government in 2024. It may play on an internet forum, it doesn't play in electoral politics, especially when the vote is still relatively fresh.
Unfortunately, this is spot on. Some of the morons see it as the EU 'punishing us' but if you don't pay the fees of a club and follow its rules, you don't get the benefit. Its that simple.
Would be interesting to see what would have happened if we could somehow have moved this whole conversation 5 years into the future. I imagine a referendum on the EU would have been seen as an unnecessary distraction by most amidst Covid, the war in Ukraine and an energy crisis.
Instead we have this mess and total idiots like Truss in charge.
Of course there is a possibility for the EU and UK to work together more closely on certain things. On the NIP for example the EU have proposed many different things which would solve most of the minor problems. The only thing that really is working is that NI and Ireland's business is working better than before. The Uk government and the DUP don't like this, hence they really don't want this solved.
There are other areas like education, security, research, science where the EU and UK could work closer together and the EU would welcome that but under certain conditions and they have to be paid for. Will the UK people be prepared to pay for it? Can they pick and choose which items on the menu they want. What will be the conditions for them to be allowed to take part. Will the electorate accept those conditions?
At the end of the day none of this solves the UK's economic problems, which so far have been partly hidden amongst the pandemic, the Ukrainian situation and the Energy/cost of living crisis, Boris couldn't believe his luck.
These things also affect other countries to varying degrees worldwide.
Take all those away and reality will hit when the full implementation of Brexit is made, it's barely begun.
Of course I realise that if Starmer told the truth, Labour will have no hope of getting elected. Great start. That's my point.
I would say that some of the things they've suggested would go quite a way to solving many of the major issues too (massively reducing paperwork, checks for goods moving between the Britain and NI) and they clearly show that there is some willingness to negotiate there, to get around the practical issues. On the commission website, they even call it a bespoke arrangement, recognising the unique nature of the problem. Agreements like this, which in theory are potentially dangerous to the integrity of the EU's single market and its standards, require trust. This is rightly in incredibly short supply from the EU at the moment and is not going to get better under Truss.
Will they be prepared to pay for that? I mean even this stupid government were willing to continue to participate in Horizon. Things like Erasmus are not set in stone and can always be negotiated again in the future. It isn't like the EU threw the UK out or banned the UK from many of these things. The current government is making an ideological point, a point which can be unmade for some things further down the line. I don't think most UK citizens are particularly fussed about the tiny cost of joining the erasmus programme for example.
I'm struggling to get your point exactly, especially with regards to electoral politics. We both agree that the UK is not rejoining the EU any time soon. We also both agree that the current iteration of the Tory party is ideologically extreme wrt the EU and almost anything is better than this. We also both agree that calling people morons, the country is shit and trying to rejoin the EU in 30 years time is not a valid electoral strategy.
My point is that the priority in the short term with regards to relations with the EU (and indeed in general) is to get this awful government out of power. Therefore calling people morons and wallowing in self pity is not a valid electoral strategy, especially at this current time. Slogans like 'Make Brexit work' therefore are, for me, not particularly cringy but probably the kind of rhetoric and approach that is needed to try to get in power and reset relations with the EU. And that almost anything is better than the current approach.
But as far as I can tell (and please correct me if I'm wrong), your point seems to be that we should continue to engage in collective wallowing as a people and as an electoral strategy, we should put as number 1 policy that we need to try to rejoin in 30 years, even though we both agree that that won't get them elected?
So what's the benefit then?
I don't disagree with most of what you say. My point isn't that calling people idiots is the answer.
The only possible solution is to convince them somehow that they made a mistake, not to continue the narrative that everything will be alright if they stick their fingers in their ears , sing lalala and it all goes away.
The longer that takes, the worse it will be.
For argument's sake, let's say Labour got elected in 2024 under the false premise that Starmer will make Brexit work. At what point does he tell the electorate that it is not possible. Then what happens, the electorate suddenly turn round and say, silly me, I made a mistake. Or does Labour get kicked out again at the next GE?
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Yeah, my point was also that such unilateral, acrimonoius divorce will not sever the relations for good, fortunately. That said, imho, any possible UK’s comeback in the mid-term, barring catastrophical events disintegrating all the common sense scenarios and timelines, will not be on the previous “special” status terms any more, but on the equal terms of any other member. This seems widely acknowledged in the EU and yes, this would be the “punishment”, again more aimed at keeping the block united than to maliciously punish the UK… and even more humiliating for the UK general public, not only right wing Tories. That’s why we all need time to defuse, imho, and see how it goes: the EU should be more interested in making Brexit work, albeit at a minimum, to have the UK back later.
So as far as I can tell
We have till the 28th October for there to be a power sharing arrangement or there has to be a new election and it seems unlikley unless changes are made to the protocal
There is of course a bill going through parliament / lords with liz trusses fingerprints all over it which aims to give UK ministers the power to make those changes unilaterally
Ursula Von Der Leyden of course welcomed Liz Truss with the reference to respecting agreements (which unilaterally changing it would most certainly not be)
So is it just me or do we see us slipping into some low level trade war with the EU right in the middle of already high inflation because i honestly cant see the ERG types backing truss if she does anything short of blow up the existing deal and take us to a no deal type scenario
Does anybody see some off ramps or is that were we are heading over the rest of the year or so
We have till the 28th October for there to be a power sharing arrangement or there has to be a new election and it seems unlikley unless changes are made to the protocal
There is of course a bill going through parliament / lords with liz trusses fingerprints all over it which aims to give UK ministers the power to make those changes unilaterally
Ursula Von Der Leyden of course welcomed Liz Truss with the reference to respecting agreements (which unilaterally changing it would most certainly not be)
So is it just me or do we see us slipping into some low level trade war with the EU right in the middle of already high inflation because i honestly cant see the ERG types backing truss if she does anything short of blow up the existing deal and take us to a no deal type scenario
Does anybody see some off ramps or is that were we are heading over the rest of the year or so
No, not really by the end of this week Liz Truss will have us on a 'war footing'... stiffen the sinews, summon up the blood, cry God for Liz, the UK and St. Brexit
there is 5 SNP questions scheduled for PMQ;s today .... she might have us at civil war by the end of the day
Hah, hah, yes, you are right, give the SNP a good (verbal) kicking, to get the juices flowing, she might even call for the rebuilding of Hadrian's Wall, (that will be the 'levelling up' bit for Northumbria)
The ERG and DUP don't want this settled. A full trade war is what they want - good luck!
Mine, who was a Tory voter most of his life, would have been stunned at the stupidity.
I'd guess it is a necessary stance to avoid giving a weapon to the almost universally UK press before the next election. I'd also say it may also be recognition that there is little appetite to start reversing the process. There should be but there isn't. If Labour get in next time then they then have a few years to potentially move sentiment to take a return to the EU to the following election. I personally suspect it will take longer than that for the majority to admit what a colossal feck up it was voting to leave (and then actually doing it).
I'm pretty sure thats where everyone is at the moment. And not just because they still think it was a good idea. There needs to be a vaguely competent government in the mean time.
my old man is still adamant it was a good idea, the twat..
the annoying thing is the convenience of Covid as an excuse for everything going to shit
the annoying thing is the convenience of Covid as an excuse for everything going to shit
Well they're at odds with Russia and China. If they crash the protocol they'll be at odds with the EU and the USA .
If they start a trade war there'll be even more serious problems economically.
Johnson didn't actually believe all the b*ll*x, if was just for show and the flag-wavers.
Truss actually believes all the drivel that she spouts.
And now it's the energy crisis that can be blamed, the war in Ukraine, climate change, and by the time we have gotten out of that lot, nobody will even remember Brexit, or why it happened... and you know what is said about those who forget their mistakes... they are doomed to repeating them!
The uplands will be sunlit because no one can afford the electricity.https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/sep/18/metric-system-imperial-measures-consultation-brexit
Jacob Rees-Mogg’s imperial measurements consultation ‘biased’ after no option given to say no
‘It’s a nonsense’: government facing claims of manipulating questions to get desired result from survey on ‘Brexit bonus’
Jacob Rees-Mogg’s imperial measurements consultation ‘biased’ after no option given to say no
‘It’s a nonsense’: government facing claims of manipulating questions to get desired result from survey on ‘Brexit bonus’
We could have seen this coming by a country mile. The destruction of the country inches closer