The problem lies with the companies not entirely brexit, they had months of warning and could have employed their own drivers to pick up and deliver. But no, slave labour is where its at and I'm glad people are suffering.
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
- Thread starter Silva
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There's slave labour everywhere in all low paid sectors not just in the Uk or the EU or the USA, anywhere.
The point is that if the UK hadn't left the EU they wouldn't have the shortages (or maybe there aren't shortages
)It's not that simple and not really about slave labour. It's a change of philosophy from long to short hauls, instead of having one driver that would get certain cargo from for example Rungis to its destination in the UK, the "Rungis" driver stops at or just after the british border due to the added time required and you then need a local driver to take the cargo from the border/warehouse to its destination within the UK/England. Now the issue is that there has been a lack of local drivers in the UK for years and it wasn't that big of an issue because being part of the EU meant that it was commercially possible for long haul drivers to compensate, now they can't/won't.
Things have changed and life is rebalancing, companies have found other markets than the UK, companies have grown massively since covid while a few have failed. Companies are employing outside of the eu because there is no one. The UK will have to adapt and they will. I see it here, pubs having to close because all their staff fecked off during lockdown and went to work at places like Picnic, an online supermarket with no actual premises that you can walk into and shop. Last time I looked at their site there were 150 vacancies and their openings are all in English promoting the fact they will rehouse you from anywhere in the world. Its great to see companies struggling to find staff, it empowers the employee. If you want to employ someone, your company will sort out all the paperwork for you. Times have changed mate, companies need to change too, mindset needs to change. The UK won't give up because it can't find a few Eastern europeansThere's slave labour everywhere in all low paid sectors not just in the Uk or the EU or the USA, anywhere.
The point is that if the UK hadn't left the EU they wouldn't have the shortages (or maybe there aren't shortages
We are just a thick nation, same thing happened with loo roll last year and it’s 100% happen again with the supermarkets next week.
That might work for a relatively simple end of chain supplier who delivers to the consumer or shops, but that doesn't help the multiple levels of logistics to manufacture the ingredients which go into the mixes which go into the finished products from hundreds of different suppliers. Those suppliers themselves have got the same problem.
But you're all bringing problems without suggesting solutions, hundreds of suppliers can be looked at as 1 individual supplier among the hundreds. You can also just give up and say 'not doable' which I think is what's happening.
Sometimes that might work, but I think you're really underestimating the complexity of the supply chain. You can't get one supplier to deliver 30 tonnes of chicken alongside, 5 different types of vegetables, herbs, sauces, packaging, flour and butter. All of those will have different storage conditions and the supplier needs to be regulated and prove traceability on each item.
I'm not saying it's not doable and these businesses are doing it which is why there is still food in the supermarkets. Some of it is being delayed and costs are far higher though.
Unfortunately there is no quick fix, the solution is to train more local drivers which from what I understand was and is the long term plan but the pandemic meant that it became difficult to do it at the required speed. The UK should be fine in a few months, maybe a year or two, the whole thing is going to be more expensive but it should work.
Cost higher fair enough, thats justifiable. Queuing for ages at the petrol pump will also raise prices, take public transport ffs. There is always a solution.
The pandemic can be used as an excuse for a while but brexit was decided in 2016, 3 years of no contingency plans points to alarming company errors.
What kind of contingency plan can make nonexistent truck drivers appear? Surely you realize that these kind of issues is why the EEC was created the way it has? There is no magical solution and no easy/quick one either.
I remember my sister sending me a message about blood shortages in hospitals with 'gotta love Brexit' attached. We had the same issue here and it had feck all to do with Brexit, it was operation catch up's because of covid. People believe what they want to believe. Contingency plans should always exist in any industry, depts exist to provide them. You are asking me what plan exists for non existant drivers, so no plan has been thought of. Great, this is how you get here not how you get out of it. Businesses are too reactive and not proactive. Misery forecasts with our economy were rife but its growing at a much better rate that thought, who are these people in charge that cannot see the light?
There is no effective contingency plan to this particular problem, you can try to repeat it as much as you want it won't become reality. The plan was to train more drivers and convince locals to become drivers, neither of these things happened at a suffiicient rate partially due to covid and also because it's a difficult job when it comes to family life, it can be very lucrative but it's not ideal and therefore not picked by people.
I would have no issue having a go at businesses or the british governement but there is no logic in it, it's a serious issue that is extremely difficult to fix in ideal circumstances and even more difficult during a pandemic and with Brexit.
Speaking to our logistics guys and they’re sticking this one on Brexit, as a business we lost some drivers to it but we have got through this by offering a good salary package.
The bit in bold might be a tough one to achieve or at least take longer than originally expected. It’s a well paid job but it’s not for everyone, I just can’t imagine a load of youngsters lining up to a become a HGV driver.
Fuel rationing... in the UK
Fuel rationing... in the UK
Where's that Tory guy from a few years ago who said you should just casually top up your tank and keep some canisters in your shed - no problem.
The effective contingency plan was not halted by covid, in 2016 brexit became a reality, what halted any plan was lack of foresight and / or urgency, 3 years they had. I have plans i can implement tomorrow should our cloud solution fail.
Alistair? He got canned himself
The thing is I get why someone would put it on Brexit, Brexit accelerated and accentuated a long standing issue regarding truck drivers getting older and not being replaced across Europe and in particular in the UK, France and Germany. Brexit also forced a change in the logistic because some trucking companies won't take long hauls to the UK because it's more time consuming and therefore more expensive than before Brexit.
No business had a clue what was happening in 2020 in terms of suppliers nevermind 2016. As soon as the rules were know I was working ridiculous hours just to get our ERP working correctly with the rule changes and documentation required. The food manufacturers who use our system were in exactly the same position.
Brexit isn't the only issue here, but it seems to be the thing that took it over the edge though.
Anyone getting an incoming Black Wednesday vibe from all this for the Government?
Had to double check and it was Francis Maude.
You just know the cabinet keep glancing at Article 16 of the protocol as if it were a big tempting ‘Do Not Press’ button.
There were errors and no contingency plans. People don't understand how things get from a to b and the UK have got a government who think it's the 19th century and are totally incompetent.
Perfect storm with Covid, but you can manage with Covid, but if Covid wasn't there, there'd still be shortages.
Just a question. Remain are saying the fuel shortages are due to Brexit etc and brexiters are saying no it’s an international problem.
If the latter is the problem then why is solution to relax visas for foreign drivers? Surely if there was an international shortage of drivers then relaxing visas wouldn’t make a difference.
If the latter is the problem then why is solution to relax visas for foreign drivers? Surely if there was an international shortage of drivers then relaxing visas wouldn’t make a difference.
There are no vehicle fuel shortages at all, there are shortages of people to drive the lorries to deliver the fuel. There are no shortages of fuel at the pumps or food in supermarkets in the EU.
The gas price issue is an international problem, but not the fuel shortage at pumps which is caused purely by lack of drivers. The former has caused the EU, UK, US etc all to look at what they can do for the affected industries, but the latter is UK only as far as I know.
Because brexiters are idiot liars.
People in Spain saying the supermarkets are fully stocked and no problem with fuel delivery, others in other European countries reporting similar.
What is the source for this? I've not heard anyone cite that border friction is one of the major issues in this mess. This is a decent overview of the issues and has your point as one of the 'other factors' in the problem.
https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/explainers/supply-chain-problems
I think 4 of the 5 issues are probably resolvable in the medium term which makes me sceptical that things can only get worse from here, even with extra border checks for imports pending. That's not to say in the short term things won't get worse before they get better.
The brexit parts of your source are all about border frictions.
Funnily enough they mention exactly what I told you:
I acknowledged that in my post but it’s not considered as one of the major factors in the crisis as you implied, rather one of the lesser ones. That was my point. It’s largely a staffing issue caused by the pandemic but compounded by Brexit.
Take the fuel issue. There’s enough fuel in the UK but the issue is that there are not enough drivers to deliver it to to outlets. Yesterday a couple of fuel companies reported closing some petrol stations, the media report it as a ‘fuel crisis’ then people start queuing for miles to drain petrol stations of their stock. It turns out that actually only 1% of the total petrol stations in the UK had closed because of a lack of stock on Friday morning and later the media are urging people not to panic buy because there’s enough fuel.
the media urging people not to panic buy always works well
It's a bit confusing I didn't imply that it was the major factor, I clearly stated the the issue was a lack of local drivers. The part that you have an issue with is about Stanley demanding quick fixes and I mentioned that quick fixes aren't that easy due to border frictions.
To make it clear the issue is that the UK lacks local drivers, this issue was compensated by the fact that supply chains could use long haul drivers to do part of the job, with Brexit and the pandemic border frictions have increased and long haul drivers are not as easy to find or convince. So as I said the issue is the lack of local drivers but it's not a new thing and the reason people notice it in the UK is border frictions.
Again, I've not heard anyone in the industry claiming this is a major issue. If you have a source I'd be interested to read it. This is what's being cited as the major causes of the driver shortages in the UK, at least what I have heard and read.
1. Due to the pandemic a lot of EU nationals returned to their home countries, this demographic were disproportionately employed in the haulage sector, this happened in all European countries I believe. The issue being in the UK that due to Brexit they couldn't return.
2. Due to the pandemic 40000 HGV tests in the UK were cancelled.
3. Ongoing structural issues in the UK haulage sector, partly caused by the race to the bottom that cheap EU labour allowed companies to partake in, has left haulage jobs unfit for purpose in a first world economy. This has led to an aging workforce and a struggle to recruit younger people into the industry.
4. Due to the age profile of UK drivers, a disproportionate number of the workforce have reached retirement age during the pandemic whilst point 2 has led to those drivers not being replaced.
5. Due to the pandemic many people have reconsidered their priorities in life, a larger number of drivers than expected have taken early retirement or moved into different sectors.
6. Due to the pandemic the demand for delivery drivers to work for home delivery companies like Amazon and Tesco has increased significantly, a number of drivers have moved into that part of the industry and are not looking to return to the nationwide haulage sector
7. The record number of young people in further education means the the pool to recruit young drivers from is getting smaller each year.
I'm not discounting that your point may have some effect, it's just that I've literally heard no one talking about it as one of the major issues.
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2 3 4 5 6 7 could apply to all EU countries
1 only applies to the UK
Through a process of elimination - plus what @JPRouve was getting at a driver or an HGV could ,pre Brexit ,drive on his weekly trip from say Berlin to Paris to Calais to London to Manchester, across to Newcastle back down to Calais, on to Amsterdam and home again picking up and dropping off goods along the way; He won't do that now and that's pre-UK checks on EU goods, wait until that happens .
And I didn't claim that it was a major issue either, in the post that you quoted the topic is on how to quickly fix it, you can't because the easy fix was only possible in a frictionless context. I don't really understand what you are trying to do particularly when your first point mentioned the border friction of all border frictions, what do you think Brexit means?
Exactly. The driver issue is true for all big EU countries but we see it in the UK today because there is a border to cross, more barriers to entry and therefore less incentive which means that the quick fix disappeared. The issue is the lack of local drivers, the absence of quick fix is the lack of frictionless border.
There could be an additional reason I'd forgotten about, the EU ID card is no longer accepted in the UK from 1st October. Coincidence?