Absolutely pal.
Brexited | the worst threads live the longest
- Thread starter Silva
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Absolutely pal.
Madness.“A lot farmers will go under, it’s inevitable. I’d still vote leave again.”
Stupid farmers. They're the Giant Pandas of the human world, along with Brexit-voting Cornish fishermen.
Agriculture industry in the UK employs only 1.5% of the total workforce and represents 0.61% of the economy. You are debating mice nuts.
In the agri sector the big 5 items are Dairy, Wheat, Poultry, Beef and Pork. These are not largely the agri items that will be imported from Australia. They'll represent some of it but it will be fruit, wine, fisheries and grains that will be had. And there'll be plenty going back the other way.
Guaranteeing a cheap source of food for the UK isn't a massively bad move. Tariff free is a fair argument.
It's Aussie businesses that will suffer more than UK based ones once goods and services start to move the other way. They'll lap up cheaper Toorak tractors (Range Rovers), Jags and Aston Martins. Match your cheap wine to those industries.
feck me, it's like the book of Job. They'll still vote Brexit even if you destroy their farm and smite their kids.
if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles.
That's the spirit, I guess.
Hello everyone! I've been reading this post for about 2 years and recently I got access to post in this forum.
I would like to thank the posters that have been willing to have the same discussions over and over again with the same posters with varying lines of argument, in order to expose the very discernible fact (not only now, but 5 years ago as well) that this was a very bad idea and that people in the UK (and some colaterals like Ireland) will suffer the huge consequences as well.
I'm not from the UK (or the EU for that matter), but I have found myself absorbed (for the lack of a better word) witnessing this extremely slow motion car crash for the last couple of years, and I still haven't processed very well how a country made a decission that is the sociopolitical/economic equivalent of deciding that, in a race against other countries, the best way to win is to keep hitting yourself in the crotch with a baseball bat while running. I understand that it's a mixture of a bunch of very ambitious people with no scruples, an increasingly corrupt and coward governing party, an increasingly inept and out of touch (while also coward) opposition party, an immensely misinformed electorate and a very vague (and also misinformed) feeling of pride and nostalgia for "the good old days" across the population. Anyway, this will be one for the ages and will probably be studied for generations to come, so we better get into it.
Maybe I sound the wrong way while writing this: obviously, the situation is terrible and the -usually poor- people is already facing the consequences. I'm sorry if that's the case, English isn't my native language and, as I said before, this is one of these situations when you just can't look away even when you want to. Anyway, the first step to recovery should be to admit the problem, and if the government isn't willing to do so then the job falls in the hands of the electorate. Will they be up to the task? How to make it work?
Sorry for the long post, I've been here a lot of time reading and learning from all of you and just wanted to say hello and thanks. I'll try to participate if I can.
I would like to thank the posters that have been willing to have the same discussions over and over again with the same posters with varying lines of argument, in order to expose the very discernible fact (not only now, but 5 years ago as well) that this was a very bad idea and that people in the UK (and some colaterals like Ireland) will suffer the huge consequences as well.
I'm not from the UK (or the EU for that matter), but I have found myself absorbed (for the lack of a better word) witnessing this extremely slow motion car crash for the last couple of years, and I still haven't processed very well how a country made a decission that is the sociopolitical/economic equivalent of deciding that, in a race against other countries, the best way to win is to keep hitting yourself in the crotch with a baseball bat while running. I understand that it's a mixture of a bunch of very ambitious people with no scruples, an increasingly corrupt and coward governing party, an increasingly inept and out of touch (while also coward) opposition party, an immensely misinformed electorate and a very vague (and also misinformed) feeling of pride and nostalgia for "the good old days" across the population. Anyway, this will be one for the ages and will probably be studied for generations to come, so we better get into it.
Maybe I sound the wrong way while writing this: obviously, the situation is terrible and the -usually poor- people is already facing the consequences. I'm sorry if that's the case, English isn't my native language and, as I said before, this is one of these situations when you just can't look away even when you want to. Anyway, the first step to recovery should be to admit the problem, and if the government isn't willing to do so then the job falls in the hands of the electorate. Will they be up to the task? How to make it work?
Sorry for the long post, I've been here a lot of time reading and learning from all of you and just wanted to say hello and thanks. I'll try to participate if I can.
@Krakenzero, you don't have to worry about not being understood - that's a very articulate summary of the Brexit disaster. `
So health and, environmental reasons (among other reasons) are designed not to protect our health and environment but to go against poor countries. I am sure they used also the mad cows to revisit what was feeding to the cows also to feck the poor countries too
Your arguments are beyond ridiculous.
If you think governments and politicians across the planet don't regularly use health, safety and environmental reasons to increase taxes, rules, regulations, curbs to their freedom etc then I'm unsure how you'll be convinced. That's literally just politicians being politicians.
To me it seems that the explanation is already there.
There is or has been a rise in nationalism. (Not only in UK, but across all of Europe). Opponents often label it as racism, but I am not sure whether I agree.
One thing that seems to be clear now (and it wasn't ten years ago) is that especially the poorer classes of society did not profit in the same way from the UK being an EU member. Also the same classes had to experience the negative effects of immigration like competing for the same jobs, appartments, public spaces, sharing the same schools etc. If you live in a nice neighbourhood in Hertfordshire you can pretty much detach your reality from these negative effects, but it's not the same for people with a lower economic mobility and strength. Probably, there has been a feeling of helplessness among a significant share of the Brexit voters (who on the basis of economic impact probably should not have voted for Brexit), so they regarded the Brexit vote as a kind of last exit possibility. Of course the campaign captured these underlying issues quite well and showed these voters a possible path. (It won't work of course, because at the end it is a problem in the internal social structure. The negative effects of Brexit might even counter any positive effects like higher paid low income jobs because prices will rise or the next Spain holiday becomes more expensive. )
Specifically in Britain, you can probably blame Blair quite a bit for this development. He was just looking at the positive effects of immigration which are undoubtedly there, but these effects are not solely positive.
And you can blame BoJo & co all you want, but we are witnessing similar approaches across Europe (Hungary, Poland, Italy, France are the obvious examples; Spain ruthlessly pushing back on illegal immigration, the CJEU declaring push-backs as legal, Denmark trying to restructure "problematic" neighbourhoods, the German left has suddenly discovered the disproportionate burden of immigration that the economically poor have to deal with.) The major difference is the anti-EU approach which was chosen in the UK. That worked in the UK because there has been an anti EU theme for many decades in the UK, which was exploited for the referendum.
On a different note what’s up with that guys accent?“A lot farmers will go under, it’s inevitable. I’d still vote leave again.”
Maybe some of the rich Brexiteers might start getting antsy when fancy restaurant stop being able to serve them food. They didn't care much about seasonal working in farming but that's out of sight, out of mind. Or it was just a question of getting our lazy young people to do some manual labour, it'll do them some good, teach tham the value of a hard day's work. This one strikes closer to home and doesn't quite land with the usual tropes. And as much as they'll want to deflect to furlough, it's kind of obvious how much restaurant staff came from the EU in the first place...
But the poorer classes did profit, immensely. They are now only just realising what they have lost - case in point, Wales, to where millions in European Regional Development Fund money flowed during the EU membership to invest in infrastructure and more, money which will not be replaced by London. Why they ever thought that this wouldn't be the post Brexit scenario is beyond me (probably they didn't think is the answer to that one).
that's a very insightful summary from an outside perspective, far more nformative than the endless back-and-forth you referred to! Cheers for sharing.Of course, that's not what he's arguing against. Yes politicians use those reasons for those policy choices. The fact that those policy choices are designed to do what you claim is the point of contention. If you don't even recognise the leap then yes the conversation is unlikely to go very far, but not because he has an odd starting position.
Southern Africa - from Zimbabwe maybe?
Or an actor’s voice used to hide the fact Gary Glitter is now released and working on a farm.
Ha ha, I couldn’t work it out, some South African I thought but it was utterly horrendous, all over the shop mishmash of noises.
They did, but they also had to live with and experience the negative consequences of it in a more direct way. That's what I'm saying.
If farmers go out of business in the UK it won't be going the other way. If the UK imports meat from Australia they won't sell any to the EU. The fisheries will be soon out of business. Wine is pennies and by the way Jacob's Creek which is owned by a French company. The UK already sell cars to Australia but the volume of business is so small it's peanuts. Australia trade mainly with countries which are close to them. The transport costs will kill any possible gains; fresh food can't be sold, it goes off.
Aussie businesses are rubbing their hands while China are causing them problems.
If the UK continue to have deals like this with tariff free access they won't have any industry at all. Then what are you going to sell?
So fisheries going, farmers going, services going, fruit and veg soon, steel next, then tourism , car sector, engineering, where does it stop?
The UK dumping ground for the world and no jobs.
people that are in the market for Aston Martins, Jaguars or Range Rovers aren't affected by tarrifs particularly when Australia doesn't really have a comparable industry so this market is already filled with exports.
Very good summary.
You have an advantage that your mind has not been corrupted by the British politicians nor the British media. Keep it that way.
Don't worry, they will love you to bits on this thread, definitely preaching to the choir.
Don't worry, they will love you to bits on this thread, definitely preaching to the choir.
He seems to understand it very well. Pity for the UK that the Brexiteers don't.
He certainly does Paul, must be reading all your stuff... at least!
He certainly does Paul, must be reading all your stuff... at least!
At least he knows I won't lie about it.
Of course, perish the thought... who would suggest such a outrage... the truth will out, has to, its imperative!
A lot of the Brexit vote came from places like that, who weren't touched much by immigration; it was the thought that some foreigner might come and play cricket on the village green.
I suspect that within a few years when they realise that London is not ponying up a damn thing, those folk will happily exchange letting in a few hard working immigrants for some money to fix up their shithole areas.
But who cares! Boris has just done an unparalleled deal! Unparalleled indeed. Such a fraud.
Actually I was just looking at the CPTPP agreement which is Truss's next mission.
This is according to the British government going to bring another £12bn in business by 2030. Wow.
What that fails to mention is that most of it is with Canada, Japan, Mexico, Singapore and Vietnam all of which the EU (including the UK if they had stayed) already had an agreement. The only one of any consequence that was missing from the CPTPP was Australia (which was still tiny). Australia and NZ are in talks with the EU.
How do brexiteers buy into all this BS?
Ownership means nothing, most scotch whiskeys are owned by Mexicans. It means nothing, country of origin is where it counts.
The UK sells cars at a premium because they have to pay import costs. Removal of that beings down the cost of UK manufactured cars vs European. As someone who has actually lived in Australia and works as a manufacturing consultant I'm probably better placed than you to actually understand it on the ground. Sending a container to Australia from the UK is about £3500, I know because I recently did it.
Aussie businesses are not rubbing their hands as much as you think, not in the sectors where you think they're going to kill UK industry like agriculture, I'm not sure where you're getting that information.
By the way, next time you buy a banana, mango, avocado, or any other tropical fruit remind yourself that fruit is perishable and then ask how you're buying it in Northern France. That's a ridiculous statement from someone that says they work in logistics because most logistics people will be aware of how fruit is transported internationally.
www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2003/may/10/foodanddrink.shopping6
Actually there are some small differences between CPTPP membership and the EU deal and its probably these that allow brexiteers to claim it will be a roring success whilst for people like myself who feel we have lost far more economically (and culturally) by brexit than we will gain elsewehere but even as a proud ramain / rejoiner I will admit there are differences
the two primary differences that I see that allow brexiteers to put a positive spin on this are:
1. Trade in services which is not covered under the current eu deals but is by CPTPP i think?
2. Its a trading block only and does not seek to impose laws, a single market or a customs union - i.e. its politically on message for the type of brexit championed by brexiteers whilst painting UK as a global trader (Im not sold on that idea myself but can see how brexiteers buy into it)
But it's not done. That's why the brexiteers keep coming demanding this or that, because they still think they can get what they promised to people. It won't be done until some advantageous arrangement is found. The consequences of Brexit have only just begun.
To be fair a sizeable proportion of people who voted against joining never shut up about it for 40 years till they managed to get their way and leave... I for one am happy to push back against the decision and Im pretty confident with demographics on our side we will be able to rejoin in some way a lot quicker than 40 years
I wonder whether that will happen and how government would go about making it happen. I now have a vote and would definitely vote join. Don't know who would suggest it though because the opposition is so weak now.