Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Paul the Wolf]

What do you suppose the average price of these houses people are going to have to leave? I realise that's a bit finger in the wind but I'd appreciate a guess maybe.

All sorts of prices, remembering that the Brits and the Dutch and the Belgians buying principle or secondary homes ten to twenty years ago drove the prices up locally and now lots are coming on the market at the same time in small villages or towns or in the countryside. I know one woman bought a large house for about £250k has had it on the market for two years with no interest and now there are dozens in that area which are now up for sale and the population of that village is less than a thousand. It was a British enclave.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Yes, it is personally devastating for many who are in the position you mention. The fact is though that 'pensions' formerly spent in France/Spain/Italy and elsewhere which on some level must have benefited the locality, will now be spent in the UK.

Do you think the Brexiteers' may have had this mind...?.... yet more information not revealed before the referendum!

But many were paying into the french system or if not were using the french health system or care sysytem even if some were reimbursed by the UK government. There will now be an extra burden on the NHS , care home system etc in the UK so in effect the UK will be replacing younger working taxpaying EU citizens with older UK citizens who will be heavily reliant on the state.

 

[oates]

All sorts of prices, remembering that the Brits and the Dutch and the Belgians buying principle or secondary homes ten to twenty years ago drove the prices up locally and now lots are coming on the market at the same time in small villages or towns or in the countryside. I know one woman bought a large house for about £250k has had it on the market for two years with no interest and now there are dozens in that area which are now up for sale and the population of that village is less than a thousand. It was a British enclave.

No, I appreciate it's a bit of a daft question but this will cause all sorts of problems even if these people can sell their houses at a loss. If the same situation was being faced in Italy which I'm not sure it is at least from Central regions down to the South because I think everyone we know at least has done their homework and got in under the wire. We're very well informed by thelocal.com - Italy - but anyway, not least of the issues won't necessarily be the money that stops being spent in supermarkets etc but instead local rates which in our area with all ages including families means a lot for local funding, even numbers keeping local schools open has meant a lot to Italian families as well, possibly similar in smaller communities in France?

 

[Paul the Wolf]

No, I appreciate it's a bit of a daft question but this will cause all sorts of problems even if these people can sell their houses at a loss. If the same situation was being faced in Italy which I'm not sure it is at least from Central regions down to the South because I think everyone we know at least has done their homework and got in under the wire. We're very well informed by thelocal.com - Italy - but anyway, not least of the issues won't necessarily be the money that stops being spent in supermarkets etc but instead local rates which in our area with all ages including families means a lot for local funding, even numbers keeping local schools open has meant a lot to Italian families as well, possibly similar in smaller communities in France?

Yes, agreed, people are all welcome by the local communities, especially in rural areas, everyone contributing to make each commune a better place, schools closure is a threat, here where we are are not so many Brits but there are Dutch , Belgian, Portuguese, Spanish, and many others. It breathes life into the community.

 

[oates]

Yes, agreed, people are all welcome by the local communities, especially in rural areas, everyone contributing to make each commune a better place, schools closure is a threat, here where we are are not so many Brits but there are Dutch , Belgian, Portuguese, Spanish, and many others. It breathes life into the community.

Yes, I wan't sure there would be the same or similar attitudes but for the moment all are welcome here, I don't think our particular commune has been this wealthy in a very long time - decades - if ever really.

Socially it will be bad for a lot of families in the UK, if ex ex-pats can't sell their homes (and a lot of the homes ex-pats buy over here were left empty for years) and buy in the UK where prices will rise - pensioners won't get mortgages - the number of people relying on families to put them up will bring a lot of unhappiness. If we were in the same position which we're luckily not I don't think we would put the house on the market, instead place it with a holiday rental agent on the off chance something will change. I don't know what would though.

 

[sun_tzu]

Yes, I wan't sure there would be the same or similar attitudes but for the moment all are welcome here, I don't think our particular commune has been this wealthy in a very long time - decades - if ever really.

Socially it will be bad for a lot of families in the UK, if ex ex-pats can't sell their homes (and a lot of the homes ex-pats buy over here were left empty for years) and buy in the UK where prices will rise - pensioners won't get mortgages - the number of people relying on families to put them up will bring a lot of unhappiness. If we were in the same position which we're luckily not I don't think we would put the house on the market, instead place it with a holiday rental agent on the off chance something will change. I don't know what would though.

I'm not sure how big an issue it will be

If its a second home then people have a uk home as well... perhaps they will sell the home abroad now they are time limited to how long they can stay or perhaps they won't... Will depend on individual circumstances but they will already have a uk home

If they have moved abroad and its their primary residence then they have every right to stay and should have registered accordingly ... no need to move back / sell up

If they have moved over there and not registered (be that through being lazy or because they have been trying to avoid tax etc) then I suspect its a pretty small subset and it's hard to have sympathy given that it's been clear for a long time what people needed to do... but as i say I suspect its a pretty small group

I'm keeping my second home in Spain... rent it out mostly but also have Irish citizenship so easy decision for me... might sell it in a couple of years once the bulk of properties have shifted

 

[Maticmaker]

But many were paying into the french system or if not were using the french health system or care sysytem even if some were reimbursed by the UK government. There will now be an extra burden on the NHS , care home system etc in the UK so in effect the UK will be replacing younger working taxpaying EU citizens with older UK citizens who will be heavily reliant on the state.

If those leaving were paying additionally (beyond the levels agreed between member countries) into the local health systems, presumably that will be a loss not only to those health systems but also in those local area economy's? Will that be a major blow affecting local indigenous populations, or only to local enclaves of ex-pats?

Older people who are totally reliant on their UK pensions will be bringing back those pensions to the UK. It is true there will be an even long queue at the NHS door, making the backlog from the pandemic even worse and being 'old' in the UK has always been something of a 'health' postcode lottery, so ex-pats returning need to be looking at where they replant their roots.

Scotland could have a particular problem as it will need (in particular as an independent country) to stop its greatest export i.e. younger Scots men and women, and look to reduce its dependence on the layering of the Barnett formula. A 'flood' of Scots ex-pats returning could sink Ms Sturgeon's plans.

 

[oates]

I'm not sure how big an issue it will be

If its a second home then people have a uk home as well... perhaps they will sell the home abroad now they are time limited to how long they can stay or perhaps they won't... Will depend on individual circumstances but they will already have a uk home

If they have moved abroad and its their primary residence then they have every right to stay and should have registered accordingly ... no need to move back / sell up

If they have moved over there and not registered (be that through being lazy or because they have been trying to avoid tax etc) then I suspect its a pretty small subset and it's hard to have sympathy given that it's been clear for a long time what people needed to do... but as i say I suspect its a pretty small group

I'm keeping my second home in Spain... rent it out mostly but also have Irish citizenship so easy decision for me... might sell it in a couple of years once the bulk of properties have shifted

Maybe you're right, a very small sub-set. I don't know if it's the same in Spain but here the onus is on the individual to find out everything themselves and some pensioners won't be internet savvy but on the other hand most everyone is plugged into a decent network, as are we. Everyone helps everyone with info and knowhow. Even so not everyone is as disciplined as @Penna and some people we know, it's been incredibly technical and confusing at times, having a decent command of the language is also essential, without it and you'd have no chance. Fair few I imagine in Spain don't qualify in some of those.

Quite right, the lazy ones will have no-one to blame but themselves, some have been so incredulous regarding the changes to a degree they might have felt this wouldn't happen.

I don't know that there are many here with homes still in the UK. Certainly not the younger couples who came out here to work and raise families.

 

[MoskvaRed]

Yes, agreed, people are all welcome by the local communities, especially in rural areas, everyone contributing to make each commune a better place, schools closure is a threat, here where we are are not so many Brits but there are Dutch , Belgian, Portuguese, Spanish, and many others. It breathes life into the community.

What’s the basic problem for those Brits - do you have to show you can pay your way including private health insurance that no doubt costs a fortune at that age?

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I'm not sure how big an issue it will be

If its a second home then people have a uk home as well... perhaps they will sell the home abroad now they are time limited to how long they can stay or perhaps they won't... Will depend on individual circumstances but they will already have a uk home

If they have moved abroad and its their primary residence then they have every right to stay and should have registered accordingly ... no need to move back / sell up

If they have moved over there and not registered (be that through being lazy or because they have been trying to avoid tax etc) then I suspect its a pretty small subset and it's hard to have sympathy given that it's been clear for a long time what people needed to do... but as i say I suspect its a pretty small group

I'm keeping my second home in Spain... rent it out mostly but also have Irish citizenship so easy decision for me... might sell it in a couple of years once the bulk of properties have shifted

People I'm talking about are not second home owners, there are some of them but that's a completely different set of people who come for holidays now and again, I'm talking about people who live here, or did live here, it's not wealthy people or tax avoiders just normal people who can't live here any more. There are many reasons, they haven't done the right paperwork they can't speak french sufficiently well, can't pay their way, it's a much larger group than the secondary home owners.

 

[Jippy]

I know quite a lot of Brits around this area . Some didn't realise what the effect would be, some are heartbroken they have to return back to the UK; those that were more savvy did the necessary. People can live here if they do the necessary and meet the requirements. Many Brits don't speak french and those that do speak some struggle because they don't know enough.

Those that have coped found the system is quite easy and cheap if you know what you're doing and have a good command of french.

The Uk will have a lot of older people to look after.

I always wonder how many of these people voted for Brexit too. For those that didn't it's tragic to have their retirement trashed for nothing.

So these British enclaves in France will become ghost towns or will locals gradually move back, given they're nice period houses, rather than oversupplied newbuilds like in Marbella in 2007-08?

 

[sun_tzu]

People I'm talking about are not second home owners, there are some of them but that's a completely different set of people who come for holidays now and again, I'm talking about people who live here, or did live here, it's not wealthy people or tax avoiders just normal people who can't live here any more. There are many reasons, they haven't done the right paperwork they can't speak french sufficiently well, can't pay their way, it's a much larger group than the secondary home owners.

I mean it's pretty difficult to feel sympathy for people who find them self in that situation... if they have not done the paperwork then their fault... if they can't speak the language then their fault and if they can't support themselves that's a shame but it's not down on another government to support them

I have a second home in Spain and perhaps that skews my view but the only people I know are people who despite knowing the process to stay properly chose not to as " the spanish won't dare get rid of us brits... they need our money and I'm not registering with them as they will come after me for taxes"... 99% of people it's either their second home or they registered properly... that small % of idiots I have no sympathy for... ref did they vote for brexit pretty sure the ones I know didn't as they couldn't be bothered because it wasn't going to make a difference... these Spanish need our money... I have no sympathy for them at all but it is a very very tiny percentage I'm my experience

 

[Paul the Wolf]

What’s the basic problem for those Brits - do you have to show you can pay your way including private health insurance that no doubt costs a fortune at that age?

You have to be able to pay your way, normally you would have complimentary health insurance, have they been contributing to the french system while they've lived here. Pensions have gone down in value since the pound collapsed. some do not know what to do, some have been told to do things by other Brits who don't know what they're doing.

People who had been living here for years suddenly had their lives turned upside down by the referendum vote.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I always wonder how many of these people voted for Brexit too. For those that didn't it's tragic to have their retirement trashed for nothing.

So these British enclaves in France will become ghost towns or will locals gradually move back, given they're nice period houses, rather than oversupplied newbuilds like in Marbella in 2007-08?

The villages were not entirely taken over by Brits but certain villages had a high proportion of Brits, they seem to gather together. I don't know anyone here who voted for Brexit and those I do know would have a serious problem with anyone they found out was a Brexiter.

 

[devilish]

I saw this yesterday in the Tel. Despite the fact it's shattered the dreams of a swathe of their readership, it's very dispassionately written and doesn't criticise Brexit.

Why the expat retirement dream could be gone forever
Sun-seeking pensioners no longer have the same rights following Brexit

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/pensions-retirement/news/expat-retirement-dream-could-gone-forever/

who would have believed that the end of freedom of movement would work both ways?

 

[Paul the Wolf]

I mean it's pretty difficult to feel sympathy for people who find them self in that situation... if they have not done the paperwork then their fault... if they can't speak the language then their fault and if they can't support themselves that's a shame but it's not down on another government to support them

I have a second home in Spain and perhaps that skews my view but the only people I know are people who despite knowing the process to stay properly chose not to as " the spanish won't dare get rid of us brits... they need our money and I'm not registering with them as they will come after me for taxes"... 99% of people it's either their second home or they registered properly... that small % of idiots I have no sympathy for... ref did they vote for brexit pretty sure the ones I know didn't as they couldn't be bothered because it wasn't going to make a difference... these Spanish need our money... I have no sympathy for them at all but it is a very very tiny percentage I'm my experience

But they were causing nobody any harm, just living their lives ,I agree they should make efforts to learn the language but many had enough just to get by.
Where I live a french friend of mine who used to be a teacher and I met regularly groups of Brits and between us we'd give them french lessons and read french literature together, for free, and help with administration problems but that was just in our local area.

It's more the younger ones who were pre-retirement who had planned their lives and had it taken away before they could comply with the requirements who I feel more sorry for.

Those who have second homes we haven't seen for ages because of Covid.

 

[Buster15]

The villages were not entirely taken over by Brits but certain villages had a high proportion of Brits, they seem to gather together. I don't know anyone here who voted for Brexit and those I do know would have a serious problem with anyone they found out was a Brexiter.

Wouldn't we all.
You may be aware that there are a number of TV programmes here in the UK such as New Life In The Sun or similar.
And despite the high number buying properly in Spain, a fair number have bought in France. The big attractions being the lovely country and lifestyle as well as the fantastic value for money of those properties. Very tempting I have to admit.
These programmes have been running for many years.
As I understand it, unless they have become French or Spanish citizens for example, they can now only stay for up to 90 days at a time.
A close friend of mine decided to sell his place in southern Spain prior to Brexit. He tells me that he got out just before the sell off and the price has dropped by over 25%.
Safe to say he did not vote to leave and was a big advocate of the EU. There are some...

 

[JPRouve]

Wouldn't we all.
You may be aware that there are a number of TV programmes here in the UK such as New Life In The Sun or similar.
And despite the high number buying properly in Spain, a fair number have bought in France. The big attractions being the lovely country and lifestyle as well as the fantastic value for money of those properties. Very tempting I have to admit.
These programmes have been running for many years.
As I understand it, unless they have become French or Spanish citizens for example, they can now only stay for up to 90 days at a time.
A close friend of mine decided to sell his place in southern Spain prior to Brexit. He tells me that he got out just before the sell off and the price has dropped by over 25%.
Safe to say he did not vote to leave and was a big advocate of the EU. There are some...

Residents, you don't need to be a citizen.

 

[Jippy]

The villages were not entirely taken over by Brits but certain villages had a high proportion of Brits, they seem to gather together. I don't know anyone here who voted for Brexit and those I do know would have a serious problem with anyone they found out was a Brexiter.

There's a big French population where I live in London, I guess people do gather together.
I can't begin to imagine how annoyed I'd be to have my life wrecked by say people have always and will always live in Hull.
I guess people making zero effort with the language didn't help themselves.

who would have believed that the end of freedom of movement would work both ways?

They need our money innit.

 

[Penna]

The elderly Brits in Europe were getting free healthcare via the S1 form (for people who are already receiving their British state pension). I think there has been some extension of that scheme for those already in receipt, but I don't know how long that will continue. If you're not getting free healthcare, you need to pay into the healthcare system of the European country you're living in (or get private insurance, which is ridiculously expensive if you have pre-existing health conditions and/or need regular medication).

In Italy, if you want to pay into the Italian system you have to be an Italian resident. To be a resident, you have to be able to demonstrate you can support yourself, but then you also have to pay tax in Italy on your worldwide assets. After 5 years, you can claim permanent residency and don't have to pay for healthcare, which will be a big help for us as it's costing us close to €3000 a year for our health cards.However, you can see how some people simply couldn't afford to do it.

Basically, if you want to live in another European country now rather than just visit occasionally, you have to be prepared to pay your way.

 

[oates]

The villages were not entirely taken over by Brits but certain villages had a high proportion of Brits, they seem to gather together. I don't know anyone here who voted for Brexit and those I do know would have a serious problem with anyone they found out was a Brexiter.

Do French people like to buy older 'character' properties? In Italy most Italians buy modern super efficient heating and insulation earthquake proof generational houses. or build them as young couples. Outsiders such as ourselves and Germans plus others buy the empty older properties. We wouldn't be so welcome if we started pricing locals out of their properties.

 

[JPRouve]

Do French people like to buy older 'character' properties? In Italy most Italians buy modern super efficient heating and insulation earthquake proof generational houses. or build them as young couples. Outsiders such as ourselves and Germans plus others buy the empty older properties. We wouldn't be so welcome if we started pricing locals out of their properties.

The main issue is that these properties are often far from jobs and sometimes from schools(middle schools and highschools) which make them less attractive.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Wouldn't we all.
You may be aware that there are a number of TV programmes here in the UK such as New Life In The Sun or similar.
And despite the high number buying properly in Spain, a fair number have bought in France. The big attractions being the lovely country and lifestyle as well as the fantastic value for money of those properties. Very tempting I have to admit.
These programmes have been running for many years.
As I understand it, unless they have become French or Spanish citizens for example, they can now only stay for up to 90 days at a time.
A close friend of mine decided to sell his place in southern Spain prior to Brexit. He tells me that he got out just before the sell off and the price has dropped by over 25%.
Safe to say he did not vote to leave and was a big advocate of the EU. There are some...

Yes they had those programmes when I lived in the UK many moons ago. Some have become citizens , some want to stay jst British but if you comply with the requirements it's not necessary to change nationalities.
One big problem was the sort of disbelief of people who actually were pretty clued up on things and could speak a reasonable amount of french or even good french who couldn't get their head around their rights being taken away that they had taken for granted for many years. I must have said dozens of times, I know it's crazy but you have to do this or that to protect yourselves.

 

[oates]

The main issue is that these properties are often far from jobs and sometimes from schools(middle schools and highschools) which make them less attractive.

I think it's a bit different here although I think a fair few men drive up North un Sunday nights to work for the week and return on Friday nights to see their families. I think it's very different in the South where whole villages are nearly empty. The average age even here is getting higher and higher but the old walled centre of the commune is still mostly occupied with families building new houses outside the walls.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Do French people like to buy older 'character' properties? In Italy most Italians buy modern super efficient heating and insulation earthquake proof generational houses. or build them as young couples. Outsiders such as ourselves and Germans plus others buy the empty older properties. We wouldn't be so welcome if we started pricing locals out of their properties.

In rural areas older french people don't tend to move houses much. The younger ones would tend to buy a newer property or buy some land and construct a new house. the outsiders as you say are the ones who tend to buy the old properties and renovate them. When the Brits and others flooded the rural market say twenty years ago the prices shot up. Houses in towns are expensive but rural properties miles from facilities will fall in value but there are still plenty of Dutch and Belgians buying old rural properties.

 

[devilish]

But they were causing nobody any harm, just living their lives ,I agree they should make efforts to learn the language but many had enough just to get by.
Where I live a french friend of mine who used to be a teacher and I met regularly groups of Brits and between us we'd give them french lessons and read french literature together, for free, and help with administration problems but that was just in our local area.

It's more the younger ones who were pre-retirement who had planned their lives and had it taken away before they could comply with the requirements who I feel more sorry for.

Those who have second homes we haven't seen for ages because of Covid.

if they refused to register because they might 'get to their money' then they are potential tax evaders right?

 

[oates]

the outsiders as you say are the ones who tend to buy the old properties and renovate them.

Which consequently here we could only really sell them to the Germans and Dutch - the people who haven't lost their rights to come and go freely without having to take Residency. Brits would lose a lot on their 'investment' I would have to guess.

 

[Buster15]

Yes they had those programmes when I lived in the UK many moons ago. Some have become citizens , some want to stay jst British but if you comply with the requirements it's not necessary to change nationalities.
One big problem was the sort of disbelief of people who actually were pretty clued up on things and could speak a reasonable amount of french or even good french who couldn't get their head around their rights being taken away that they had taken for granted for many years. I must have said dozens of times, I know it's crazy but you have to do this or that to protect yourselves.

Exactly. As you say, so many people took their 'rights' for granted. And free movement of people was certainly one of them.
Ok. It might not affect the majority. But it was a very fundamental right and I do hope that some who voted to leave are now being adversely affected.

 

[devilish]

People I'm talking about are not second home owners, there are some of them but that's a completely different set of people who come for holidays now and again, I'm talking about people who live here, or did live here, it's not wealthy people or tax avoiders just normal people who can't live here any more. There are many reasons, they haven't done the right paperwork they can't speak french sufficiently well, can't pay their way, it's a much larger group than the secondary home owners.

The UK chose to tighten their borders on one side which in turn lead to the other side doing the same. Many EU citizens left the UK because they were afraid for their future or didn't felt welcome anymore. Most won't look kindly at their own country if they roll the red carpet to the same people who voted them out of their adopted home.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

if they refused to register because they might 'get to their money' then they are potential tax evaders right?

They are registered and would be paying into the french system for at least part of their expenses, e.g; the equivalent of council tax in the UK or services, some were using the reciprocal health system which will stop soon. It's very difficult to remain anonymous in France especially in a rural area.

 

[oates]

if they refused to register because they might 'get to their money' then they are potential tax evaders right?

Before they just paid tax in the UK and had free healthcare under the EHIC arrangement. With taking residency they have to pay tax at the host country rate on anything over the UK rate plus pay in to the host country's health care system for 5 years until they become full residents. That can be several thousands of £. Not everyone can afford the increases.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

The UK chose to tighten their borders on one side which in turn lead to the other side doing the same. Many EU citizens left the UK because they were afraid for their future or didn't felt welcome anymore. Most won't look kindly at their own country if they roll the red carpet to the same people who voted them out of their adopted home.

Of course, anything the UK does will be reciprocated by the EU country.

 

[oates]

Exactly. As you say, so many people took their 'rights' for granted. And free movement of people was certainly one of them.
Ok. It might not affect the majority. But it was a very fundamental right and I do hope that some who voted to leave are now being adversely affected.

Some who voted stay are being adversely affected.

 

[devilish]

They are registered and would be paying into the french system for at least part of their expenses, e.g; the equivalent of council tax in the UK or services, some were using the reciprocal health system which will stop soon. It's very difficult to remain anonymous in France especially in a rural area.

Part of the expenses doesn't really cut it. Why should an EU country pick up the rest of the tab especially considering how hostile the UK had been towards the EU particularly against the French?

 

[devilish]

Before they just paid tax in the UK and had free healthcare under the EHIC arrangement. With taking residency they have to pay tax at the host country rate on anything over the UK rate plus pay in to the host country's health care system for 5 years until they become full residents. That can be several thousands of £. Not everyone can afford the increases.

Well that's something these migrants should put forward to their MPs the very next day they are forced back home. The UK wasn't kicked out of the EU. It voted itself out. Once that happened they negotiated the most distant and hostile deal possible apart from hard Brexit. If I was one of those people I would be fuming at the Tory government right now.

 

[oates]

Part of the expenses doesn't really cut it. Why should an EU country pick up the rest of the tab especially considering how hostile the UK had been towards the EU particularly against the French?

It's proportional, some will use the service, some won't. It hopefully evens out.

Well that's something these migrants should put forward to their MPs the very next day they are forced back home. The UK wasn't kicked out of the EU. It voted itself out. Once that happened they negotiated the most distant and hostile deal possible apart from hard Brexit. If I was one of those people I would be fuming at the Tory government right now.

Maybe that day will come, maybe most people don't want to admit they were lied to or care. The original vote was won by a small majority.

 

[UnrelatedPsuedo]

Some who voted stay are being adversely affected.

Your point is 100% valid.

But equally... Anyone in the UK who wants to remain in the EU is being led by those that voted Leave... so while sympathy for overseas EU Remainers is easy to find, it’s not worth anything. It’s like we’re being repeatedly punched in the face and then being asked to care that someone is getting rained on.

 

[Buster15]

Some who voted stay are being adversely affected.

That is democracy I am afraid.
Millions get to vote on something they know little or nothing about and on something they are unlikely to be affected by. Twas ever thus.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

Part of the expenses doesn't really cut it. Why should an EU country pick up the rest of the tab especially considering how hostile the UK had been towards the EU particularly against the French?

Sorry, what I meant is that they're in the system if they're paying their council tax or part of their expenses such as electricity, water etc , everyone gets sent a tax form to fill in. If the Uk government have been reimbursing the french health service for their treatment. No EU country is going to pay anyone who isn't entitled to it.

 

[oates]

Your point is 100% valid.

But equally... Anyone in the UK who wants to remain in the EU is being led by those that voted Leave... so while sympathy for overseas EU Remainers is easy to find, it’s not worth anything. It’s like we’re being repeatedly punched in the face and then being asked to care that someone is getting rained on.

I don't think it's a question of sympathy, shit happens and we had it fairly good for a good while. The UK seems insistent on heading down a dark wormhole with no known destination but perhaps we'll all be pleasantly surprised that Boris actually knew all of the time exactly what he was doing and it would have a positive outcome. Or perhaps it was just about making his friends even richer. I have some empathy for those whose lives have been turned upside down and are going to suffer for it.

That is democracy I am afraid.
Millions get to vote on something they know little or nothing about and on something they are unlikely to be affected by. Twas ever thus.

Yes, I appreciate the first past the post version of democracy. We'll reap what we sow. With Priti Patel shitting on EU visitors I wouldn't blame other EU citizens wanting to reciprocate.