I don't understand your question? You mean regarding the Indian/Pakistani point?
I gave a whole long list of 'typical Brexiteers' above, of which one group was (surprisingly for me) people from the subcontinent, who gave the reasons articulated above. Paul then seemingly disagreed that it is harder from people outside of the EU to get a job in the UK than it is for Europeans, which I took exception to.
If you look at the original point, I mentioned a huge range of people who fall under the 'typical Brexiteer' tag. It is mostly that point which seems to have carried on though.
It was only British citizens who voted, of many different colours and religions.
Edit: Ah I think I see what you meant, non British citizens?
No, only British citizens voted. But a large number of Indians/ Pakistanis/ Bangladeshis who came to the UK in the /60s/70s/80s especially have now got British citizenship. It is mostly this group I am referring to in the above examples, though it partly applies to their British born kids as well.
I know quite a few colleagues like this. Indian doctors, very competent, who had to jump through so many hoops (language and otherwise) to work here and saw (at times less competent, also without necessarily having better English) colleagues from Europe who had found it much easier to land an equivalent job.
Also apologies, I am posting all this when I am actually supposed to be catching up on various work. I will try to get back to your other point later.
Good post. stereotypical comments aimed at a particular group are the norm here so it's a refreshing and accurate change.
One of the reasons they could never get around a table and figure a consensus brexit has led to what is odds on to be a hard/WTO brexit now as I argued in here months before the election. A lot thought the lib dems and their leader was going to save the day! Not living in the real world i'm afraid.
It helps them by putting them on a level playing field to the Europeans. That is what they wanted. Not to be automatically disadvantaged when applying for a job in the UK compared to a European.
Their thinking is that currently, if they want a job in the UK, they have to compete (at a disadvantage) compared to British and European applicants. Now they are on a level field with the Europeans.
No, they could vote if they'd taken up British citizenship. Same as if a Pole or Austrian had taken up British citizenship.
I'm really struggling to see what you're trying to argue with here.
It is harder for an Indian or Ghanaian to get a job in the UK (or anywhere in Europe) than it is for an EU citizen. You might agree with that but it is a fact. You can throw in irrelevant comments about Britain's colonial past or Windrush in there but it doesn't change it.
I think with respect, you've not actually read the article if that's what you've taken from it.
Trade agreements from 1 January 2021
After 31 December 2020, EU trade agreements will not apply to the UK.
The UK is seeking to reproduce the effects of existing EU agreements for when they no longer apply to the UK.
This will ensure continuity of trading arrangements for UK businesses.
If we do not reproduce the effects of an existing EU agreement, trade with other World Trade Organization (WTO) members will take place on WTO terms when EU trade agreements cease to apply to the UK.
Trade agreements that have been signed
Agreements with the following countries and trading blocs are expected to take effect when existing EU trade agreements no longer apply to the UK, from 1 January 2021.
Trade agreements still in discussion
The following agreements are still under discussion with countries where there are existing EU trade agreements in place.
If an agreement is not reached by 31 December 2020, trade with other WTO members will take place on WTO terms
Trade agreement discussions with countries in Customs Unions with the EU
Andorra, San Marino and Turkey are part of Customs Unions with the EU. The UK’s future trading relationship with these countries will be influenced by the agreement the UK reaches with the EU.
Mutual recognition agreements
A mutual recognition agreement (MRA) is one in which countries recognise the results of one another’s conformity assessments.
See how all of the sections are clearly demarcated as to differing statuses as of 2021 and what will happen in the event of a no deal.
There is nothing there that isn't concordant with what I said earlier. The UK has already signed agreements which will come into play in 2021 with 50 of the 70 countries the EU has an agreement with currently. Which is different to what you claimed (that those agreements were just for the transition period. Actually, all agreements are still in place for the transition period).
I think you've missed my point regarding the Indian-Pakistani point.
Most of them came to the UK after the war 50s 60s 70s while they had UK citizenship and them their children and grandchildren. Now whether they did or not , they have now British citizenship and therefore were able to vote in the referendum.
Thus why would they vote to leave in the referendum when they already have what they wanted.
Re agreements, yes I clicked on individual agreements which is why I said what I said, the UK is no longer part of the EU and Iceland, Switzerland, Norway are not and thus EU agreements would stop on 31 January 2020 which is why they extended the until the transition period ends, at the moment 31 December 2020 or longer if it is extended mutually.
If the UK change their regulations they will have to start from scratch, for example although Iceland etc are not in the EU they are in the EEA.
The customs arrangements are special for micro-states, which we all hope the Uk won't become and Turkey has a customs border with the EU despite being in a special form of customs union with the EU, originally designed for them to eventually become members of the EU but looks a many decades away. Having the same relationship with the EU that Iceland and Switzerland have still involves a customs border.
It's what happens when you have a strong majority you get to make the rules. Funny though a bet this guy didn't say the same when Labour ripped upped their manifesto pledges last time around. I bet he also agreed with the mantra politicians are elected to make the decisions and should not be beholden to the referendum when it suited either. Funny how we bend our own values to get what we want be can't abide by 'other' people doing it.
Personally I am well aware there will be endless reprecussions from Brexit however I can't see them having much effect on huge corporates like BMW with the structures they have in place globally. For them I do see it as simple as slap the tariffs on top and away we go. The supply chain may face delays but ultimately they'll just increase the costs and its business as usual. People won't stop buying premium cars because they're a bit more expensive.
It's what happens when you have a strong majority you get to make the rules. Funny though a bet this guy didn't say the same when Labour ripped upped their manifesto pledges last time around. I bet he also agreed with the mantra politicians are elected to make the decisions and should not be beholden to the referendum when it suited either. Funny how we bend our own values to get what we want be can't abide by 'other' people doing it.
1) you can't expect to rip up your mandate simply because you got a majority, since you got your majority based on that mandate.
2) just because there's kids starving in Africa doesn't mean I shouldn't eat when I'm hungry
3) lost interest in responding now because I'm eating a sandwich
Thier best selling cars are not premium, though. At most, they are mid range. So a price hike could be problematic, especially if there is a Brexit-led downturn in general. New car sales are one of the earliest casualties of an economic downturn.
Thier best selling cars are not premium, though. At most, they are mid range. So a price hike could be problematic, especially if there is a Brexit-led downturn in general. New car sales are one of the earliest casualties of an economic downturn.
Even their mid range, competition is mainly between Mercedes, BMW, Audi as far as premium car manufacturers goes. Maybe throw VW in there to an extent but they're German too. Who are you thinking would be their possible tariff free or lower tariff competitors for that market? That's the whole point I'm making everyone is going to be pretty much in the same boat. Ultimate sufferers are the consumers.
1) you can't expect to rip up your mandate simply because you got a majority, since you got your majority based on that mandate.
2) just because there's kids starving in Africa doesn't mean I shouldn't eat when I'm hungry
3) lost interest in responding now because I'm eating a sandwich
They can and they are. Tell me how you or anyone without a majority is going to stop them again? Also take a look at how they EU have changed their stance too. This was inevitable. The only chance of an amicable solution was if everybody got behind democracy and put a united stance together after the vote. Now trust has broken down between all sides. I'm not even sure how anyone thinks things have changed that much the Tories have said for years that no deal is better than a bad deal so they have always refused to remove it. Boris said he would not align before the GE. The Eu want something completely unnecessary as a protectionist move, we want to more towards a more free market approach
Things will get worse before they get better unless the EU agree to the FTA agreement Barnier said we could have when discussions first began. I'm not sure they will now as they know the UK will make a success of that scenario leaving the whole project in jeopardy. The problem for the EU is the UK can make some big deals with the US, India, China and Australia and it will still prove to have made a success while EU exporters will be replaced as each deal is agreed.
My point is that I disagree that raising prices will be an easy or effective way to circumvent this problem. because a price rise will hit sales of most of the cars BMW sell except the really pricy ones; the typical buyer cannot easily absorb a rise.
And, yes, this will be a problem for most of the sector. Car sales are already in recession; they can ill-afford even a marginal effect from price rises.
They can and they are. Tell me how you or anyone without a majority is going to stop them again? Also take a look at how they EU have changed their stance too. This was inevitable. The only chance of an amicable solution was if everybody got behind democracy and put a united stance together after the vote. Now trust has broken down between all sides. I'm not even sure how anyone thinks things have changed that much the Tories have said for years that no deal is better than a bad deal so they have always refused to remove it. Boris said he would not align before the GE. The Eu want something completely unnecessary as a protectionist move, we want to more towards a more free market approach
Things will get worse before they get better unless the EU agree to the FTA agreement Barnier said we could have when discussions first began. I'm not sure they will now as they know the UK will make a success of that scenario leaving the whole project in jeopardy. The problem for the EU is the UK can make some big deals with the US, India, China and Australia and it will still prove to have made a success while EU exporters will be replaced as each deal is agreed.
I'm guessing the bad weather and sub par Cadbury's cream eggs will be a thing of the past once we get away from those Europeans as well huh.
I can't stand beside a majority if they're diving off a cliff just for the sake of "solidarity" just because Boris promises them that there will be a big bouncy castle made out of marshmallows at the bottom to soften the landing.
Well I've got it right up to now. What did you predict lib dems victory in the election or Corbyn?
I hardly see it as wishful thinking when US trade delegation are meeting right now.... It's literally all been spelt out but yeah, denial its going around the EU so of course it would infect some people here.
Well I've got it right up to now. What did you predict lib dems victory in the election or Corbyn?
I hardly see it as wishful thinking when US trade delegation are meeting right now.... It's literally all been spelt out but yeah, denial its going around the EU so of course it would infect some people here.
Ah right, because the Americans are meeting with us it means that we've already arranged successful deals with not only them but China, India, Australia, the moon, Genghis Khan and the one armed man from The Fugitive. Righto chiefo, gotcha.
Saying that because you predicted a Tory win in the election means you're in a strong position to predict what the UK will look like in the generations to come is the most childish thing I've seen in a long time, and I work with actual children.
Personally I am well aware there will be endless reprecussions from Brexit however I can't see them having much effect on huge corporates like BMW with the structures they have in place globally. For them I do see it as simple as slap the tariffs on top and away we go. The supply chain may face delays but ultimately they'll just increase the costs and its business as usual. People won't stop buying premium cars because they're a bit more expensive.
Someone paying £80k or £90k for a high range car instead of £70/75k will probably not affect sales too much.
Tariffs will be one factor, another factor will be currency devaluation if there is a hard border, Boris opens his mouth suggesting as such and the pounds drops 3 cents. Thus devaluation will probably at least as much be as much as the tariffs.
But those two added together is still not the whole story.
BMW produce the Mini in the UK and a Mini gearbox for example goes in and out of the country four or five times before it is fitted hence delays which also delays other areas of manufacture , then the extra staff to deal with the paperwork or arranging all the technical documentation, customs declarations, tax declarations and extra finance.
Question is at what point do BMW say enough is enough, it's no longer viable to produce them in the UK. If most of the Minis produced are sold in the UK then it may possibly be viable.
Like the Nissan Qashqai in Sunderland which I believe 90% of the sales are abroad from the UK, do Nissan really want all this hassle?
High value goods and large companies will be less affected, it's the low value goods and smaller companies where the problems will be. Likewise the rich won't worry but the poor will. And the rich convinced the poor to vote for it.
Ah right, because the Americans are meeting with us it means that we've already arranged successful deals with not only them but China, India, Australia, the moon, Genghis Khan and the one armed man from The Fugitive. Righto chiefo, gotcha.
Saying that because you predicted a Tory win in the election means you're in a strong position to predict what the UK will look like in the generations to come is the most childish thing I've seen in a long time, and I work with actual children.
It's what happens when you have a strong majority you get to make the rules. Funny though a bet this guy didn't say the same when Labour ripped upped their manifesto pledges last time around. I bet he also agreed with the mantra politicians are elected to make the decisions and should not be beholden to the referendum when it suited either. Funny how we bend our own values to get what we want be can't abide by 'other' people doing it.
*Equal Sovereign footing. Are you suggesting we just accept whatever they want? We can and will replace any industry they charge tariffs on that we can source from other economic blocks. We also immediately benefit from not having to charge tariffs on produce from Africa, China, the USA that the EU have tariffs on to protect their industry. The real question is whether you believe in a tariff led protectionist system which apparently the EU really dislike when the USA threaten but are quite fond of putting barriers on African products, or Chinese goods etc.. (I don't need to explain this)
My firm believe is a free market tariff free system will help the whole global economy and when other countries see the benefit they will look closer at it. The EU holds an ever decreasing portion of world GDP even before our departure, looking towards Africa, China, India etc is a very smart move for the future, removing tariffs with them that the EU would never dream of will benefit UK consumers and developing countries economies at the same time further reducing the EU's economic power.
Another week goes past in Brexit paradise and we're still waiting for reasons why people voted Brexit that wasn't anything to do with lies, drivel or foreigners.
No sign of what the benefits will be. Gove's trying to employ a minimum of 50,000 officers to cope with January 2021, still to be trained, still to upgrade the ports. Farmers losing all subsidies by 2027.
And once again everyone's forgotten about the border between Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic.
Next week's challenge. Do brexiters know what a Canada style deal is, do they understand WTO rules (including state aid rules) and would they pass the test to become a British citizen?
Another week goes past in Brexit paradise and we're still waiting for reasons why people voted Brexit that wasn't anything to do with lies, drivel or foreigners.
No sign of what the benefits will be. Gove's trying to employ a minimum of 50,000 officers to cope with January 2021, still to be trained, still to upgrade the ports. Farmers losing all subsidies by 2027.
And once again everyone's forgotten about the border between Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic.
Next week's challenge. Do brexiters know what a Canada style deal is, do they understand WTO rules (including state aid rules) and would they pass the test to become a British citizen?
Fine thanks, so was the UK until the referendum, by the way you do realise that it's not the EU that charges tariffs on EU goods, it will be the UK -also that what you do with one nation under WTO regulations you have to do with all nations unless you have a FTA. Also that there is a FTA ready to be signed with ECOWAS (West African nations) with the EU. Its froze when Nigeria didn't sign it because of the severe problems they had in 2015/16 - took many years and still not signed off. Just as long as you know what you're doing.
Next week's challenge. Do brexiters know what a Canada style deal is, do they understand WTO rules (including state aid rules) and would they pass the test to become a British citizen?
Fine thanks, so was the UK until the referendum, by the way you do realise that it's not the EU that charges tariffs on EU goods, it will be the UK -also that what you do with one nation under WTO regulations you have to do with all nations unless you have a FTA. Also that there is a FTA ready to be signed with ECOWAS (West African nations) with the EU. Its froze when Nigeria didn't sign it because of the severe problems they had in 2015/16 - took many years and still not signed off. Just as long as you know what you're doing.
Funny, a lot of people in France don't seem to think it's fine but as long as you are happy. Time will tell but I think we are making a very good decision, maybe France will follow in the future.
Funny, a lot of people in France don't seem to think it's fine but as long as you are happy. Time will tell but I think we are making a very good decision, maybe France will follow in the future.
Because we'll never be allowed to have a leave / remain vote as they did in the UK.
Just a reminder how anything related to EU democracy works here, the last time we had a vote about anything to do with the EU was 2005 and the pro-EU Government simply ignored the result.
Unlike Ireland, they didn't even bother to make us have a second vote - they just carried on as if the referendum, had never taken place - and which is what set me off on my own anti-EU crusade.
I was talking about WTO state aid rules, they also have rules, hope the UK don't mind foreigners in the WTO telling them what they can and cannot do.
State aid is possible in the EU too.
Funny, a lot of people in France don't seem to think it's fine but as long as you are happy. Time will tell but I think we are making a very good decision, maybe France will follow in the future.
Have they been telling you that, I'd hazard a guess that the UK are back in the EU before France would ever leave.
Let me know how things are going this time next year.
Just a suggestion but hadn't the UK better start doing something concrete like preparations for the future instead of hoping that another country leaves the EU or that they have more xenophobes than the UK. Only ten months left and they haven't done much.
Have they been telling you that, I'd hazard a guess that the UK are back in the EU before France would ever leave.
Let me know how things are going this time next year.
Just a suggestion but hadn't the UK better start doing something concrete like preparations for the future instead of hoping that another country leaves the EU or that they have more xenophobes than the UK. Only ten months left and they haven't done much.
But it's the standard reply. Ah but France will leave the EU or France have racists or xenophobes. Difference is the UK is the only country who have voted to leave and the UK will probably be the best advert for staying in the EU.
But it's the standard reply. Ah but France will leave the EU or France have racists or xenophobes. Difference is the UK is the only country who have voted to leave and the UK will probably be the best advert for staying in the EU.
But you're better than the old racists and xenophobes chuckaway line....I mean, it's not as though the EU itself and most of its members doesn't do its best to stop those bloody foreigners from coming in - to the tune of €6 billion.
And....Let's not forget....The UK is the only member which has been allowed to vote whether to leave the EU, so maybe reword that bit, a bit.
You're possibly / maybe correct that short term the UK will struggle to maintain it's current levels of economic activity. But then again, so will the EU if there is no FTA with the UK. The trade goes both ways with a huge surplus in favour of the EU.
Other than that....Life good, still ? We've got a definite touch of miserable weather blues and were planning on going to visit friends in Vicenza this coming week and going up to the Tyrol together for a break. Fat chance now....
Correct me if I'm wrong but a British Citizen is somebody who was born and has chosen to remain British, or somebody who has become British.
Why should EU nationals who live in the UK be allowed to vote in the UK Parliamentary elections when UK nationals who live in the EU can't vote in the EU?
Why do remainers always try to turn Brexit in to a racist arguement?
But you're better than the old racists and xenophobes chuckaway line....I mean, it's not as though the EU itself and most of its members doesn't do its best to stop those bloody foreigners from coming in - to the tune of €6 billion.
And....Let's not forget....The UK is the only member which has been allowed to vote whether to leave the EU, so maybe reword that bit, a bit.
You're possibly / maybe correct that short term the UK will struggle to maintain it's current levels of economic activity. But then again, so will the EU if there is no FTA with the UK. The trade goes both ways with a huge surplus in favour of the EU.
Other than that....Life good, still ? We've got a definite touch of miserable weather blues and were planning on going to visit friends in Vicenza this coming week and going up to the Tyrol together for a break. Fat chance now....
But the UK vote to leave was supposed to be about legal immigrants not illegal immigrants. Maybe France should stop detaining the refugees in Calais trying to cross the channel and let them move freely into the UK. It's not the same thing.
Of course the EU would prefer an FTA with the UK but that seems highly unlikely to be anything but a basic deal if anything at all. What still seems to have escaped Brexiters is that the EU still have all the deals they had apart from with the UK, - the UK have torn up all their deals - also the EU is made of 27 other countries with no customs border between them and I have insisted since the beginning - this is the most important aspect of all.
Say the EU was as you say a pure trading bloc (which it never was) but say it was - they would still have to have EU standards, ECJ judgement, in fact as most of the regulations they say they don't want to follow are to do with trade, doesn't really make sense.
Seriously, whether one thinks it is wrong or right to leave the EU or for whatever reason they voted to leave I personally cannot see how the UK operates on its own even if they had a team of competent ministers and experts in their field- to make matters worse, the team they have in place should petrify everyone even the most ardent Brexiter.
Wet and windy here but hasn't been that cold and had quite a few sunny days. Will soon be spring.
Correct me if I'm wrong but a British Citizen is somebody who was born and has chosen to remain British, or somebody who has become British.
Why should EU nationals who live in the UK be allowed to vote in the UK Parliamentary elections when UK nationals who live in the EU can't vote in the EU?
Why do remainers always try to turn Brexit in to a racist arguement?
Nobody has said that a British citizen isn't someone who was born there or who has acquired citizenship. Nobody has said that EU nationals could vote in the referendum without reciprocal arrangements in EU countries.
The discussion was about Indian/Pakistani origin British citizens who voted to leave because .... not clear.... seemingly somebody gave some EU citizens jobs and UK citizens ahead of Pakistani/Indians who they knew were inferior in and couldn't speak proper English.
I must admit I've never worked in any field where you give a job to an inferior candidate especially when the pay is the same for everyone.
In the meantime we're still waiting for a reason why Brexit was voted for that isn't drivel nor connected to foreigners.
More importantly how will the UK export to any other country without following the regulations and standards of the country they are exporting to, how will they solve the border problem with Ireland, what will they do to help farmers who they convinced to vote for them and then cancelled their subsidies.
Looks like, now that the Tories have a large majority, they have regressed four years to the "we hold all the cards, they need us more than we need them, Ireland? where's that?" nonsense.
In the meantime we're still waiting for a reason why Brexit was voted for that isn't drivel nor connected to foreigners.
More importantly how will the UK export to any other country without following the regulations and standards of the country they are exporting to, how will they solve the border problem with Ireland, what will they do to help farmers who they convinced to vote for them and then cancelled their subsidies.
Looks like, now that the Tories have a large majority, they have regressed four years to the "we hold all the cards, they need us more than we need them, Ireland? where's that?" nonsense.
Every time they are given they are shown to be what they are, not the same thing.
But it's happened now so the vision for the future is more important. How the UK get themselves out of the problems Boris has imposed on them. So far we have, the EU can't tell us what to do and they need us more than we need them. Next January isn't far away.
