Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

  • Total voters
    194
  • Poll closed .
Classical Mechanic said:
I don't think a pretend Brexit is a compromise at all, it simply isn't Brexit. It's just drastically reducing our terms within the EU, not becoming an independent trading nation and becoming a rule taker instead of maker. I guess it would cap off the ludicrous stupidity that has been Brexit and might be fitting in that sense.

Don't labour want to put it in a referendum anyway so you'd have pretend Brexit vs Remain, hows that going to unite the nation?
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You should have told us what your ideal brexit was before we voted so you had a mandate for it. You didn’t, and you now refuse to try to find a consensus brexit because you refuse to compromise, so you have to try to bully through this preferred version instead. That’s the root of this mess.
 
nickm said:
You should have told us what your ideal brexit was before we voted so you had a mandate for it. You don’t, and you refuse to try to find a consensus brexit because you refuse to compromise, so you have to try to bully through this preferred version instead. That’s the root of this mess.
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Yeah that's what annoys me the most about this whole farce - Brexiteers could've had a more concrete version of Brexit if they'd demanded distinct terms on which we would leave in the initial vote - i.e. whether we'd leave the single market etc. But doing so would've inevitably reduced the appeal of their campaign from the start and so they went for vagueness instead.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
Very apt.
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autocorrect knows...

nickm said:
Shame hardly anyone mentioned that in the referendum.
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that link concludes that generally there were calls for the UK to have an independent trade policy, that can’t exist in a CU. Are you saying that the three key reasons for Brexit were not understood to be immigration, trade and the sovereignty of Parliament during the referendum?

Cheesy said:
It is though - the referendum was simply asking whether or not we would be a member of the European Union or not. If Brexiteers wanted something more concrete they should've put forward a more concrete, hardline question in the referendum vote - they didn't because they knew it'd have failed, and because the only way for Brexit to happen was to make things vague enough that people could project their own desires onto leaving the EU.

I'm struggling to see a reason to pander to Brexiteers when they've had years to formulate a coherent plan that can command a majority in the parliament they proclaim they wanted to restore sovereignty to. If they end up with a neutered Brexit then that's their fault.
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How would having a real Brexit option pitted against remain on a referendum be pandering to Brexiteers? It give the only two real options.

@Sweet Square

I know the nation can’t be united but I believe such a disingenuous referendum as the one you propose would be exceptionally divisive.
 
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nickm said:
Yep. As a remainer I could have settled for Norway or something like that. Staying in the single market was key and my red line. The customs union alone is a hard brexit and I can’t support that.
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Yup, leaving the single market was what was regarded as "hard brexit" at the start of all this. Complete and utter victory for the right that staying in a customs union is the softest version available, and even that's a pipe dream.
 
Ubik said:
Yup, leaving the single market was what was regarded as "hard brexit" at the start of all this. Complete and utter victory for the right that staying in a customs union is the softest version available, and even that's a pipe dream.
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I can never decide if collectively brexiteers knew they were talking shit at that point or they've didn't and steadily moved the goalposts as they've realised the remainers were right about what it meant.

I'm not even sure which is worse.
 
> Are you saying that the three key reasons for Brexit were not understood to be immigration, trade and the sovereignty of Parliament during the referendum

The link concludes: “as far as we’ve seen, Leave campaigners hardly mentioned the customs union in explicit terms at all, so there was generally little clarity about what leaving might mean in that regard.

“Campaigners did often say the UK should be able to set its own trade policy, and this could imply leaving the customs union as well... At the same time, though, certain sectors of an economy can be left out of a customs agreement, so it’s not a straightforward in or out issue.”

And of course, this rather unemotive summary leaves out all the context, where a remainer would say x means y, eg Brexit could mean leaving the single market, and leave would deny it and call it project fear.

I think the reasons for Brexit, as you put it, were in the eyes of the beholder. In my view, the reasons for Brexit boil down to English nationalism but you can put fancier labels on that if it makes you feel better. Not that you will get a consistent answer from different Brexiters, BTW. For some it, it might have been all these things. For some, it might have been only one or two. For many I expect, it was about winding the clock back to the 1950s.
 
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This idea the only real Brexit is this or that, is precisely the problem that has split the country. It brooks no compromise.

And that’s why referendums are crap in our system, because there is no mechanism for compromise within it, unlike parliamentary decision making where nobody gets all they want, but everyone can swallow it.
 
sun_tzu said:
Didn't Wales vote for brexit ?... Feel free to square that circle
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What you mean the most integrated nation within the English led union? (I might wind up the Welsh with this, but arguably Scotland and N Ireland have far more politically devolved powers and a more forceful sense of their political identities ).
 
@Paul the Wolf are you like me surprised by the many people that seemingly didn't expect Macron to have that position? It's as if they didn't listen to what the MEDEF had to say about Brexit.
 
JPRouve said:
@Paul the Wolf are you like me surprised by the many people that seemingly didn't expect Macron to have that position? It's as if they didn't listen to what the MEDEF had to say about Brexit.
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Non à un Brexit sans fin.

No I'm not surprised because they think all the countries will continue to have the patience to let the UK argue amongst themselves till the end of time, which they will given the chance.
 
sun_tzu said:
not necessarily

Brexit and Conservatives that would be WTO or johnsons deal and no second referendum I think
add in the DUP and it would be No deal for sure
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The DUP won’t support the Johnson after throwing them under the bus with his deal. Nor will any of the MPs that have been kicked out and will run as independents. Labour will also lose all those government and Brexit backers as most standing down.
 
Kate Hooey is considering joining the Brexit Party, apparently.
 
NWRed said:
Depends totally on what you mean by "without a government", there would still have been the infrastructure of a modern state such as civil servants to administer and police/army/hospitals etc doing their jobs.

The idea that no government leads to a paradise of equality and freedom is a right wing nut job fantasy espoused by gun toting morons.
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Of course I didn't mean been depleted of civil servants but just the parliament and legislation there

And no, anarchy is not right wing and nor left wing
 
esmufc07 said:
Macron applying the pressure it seems.

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About time. Its ridiculous that amendments are passed as if the EU has no say.
Im as anti Boris as can be but i was struck by how assuredly the extension vote was passed as if it was a given.
 
esmufc07 said:
Macron applying the pressure it seems.

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It’s a good move from Macron and the EU. Boris and his motley crew have been trying to call their bluff pushing for a no deal as if the EU couldn’t cope with it and couldn’t bare to deal with the scenario and would crumple and fold to any deal given that pressure.

Macron’s busting that myth and spoiling that negotiation tactic.
 
https://www.theguardian.com/politic...nsion-boris-johnson-election?CMP=share_btn_tw

During a meeting of EU diplomats, the French ambassador stood alone in arguing that it was not the right time to agree a three-month delay, in a move that will be welcomed in Downing Street.

Only after the vote on Monday should the EU decide to “go short, to push for ratification, or long to accommodate a general election”, the ambassador told the other member states, according to a diplomatic note.

Sources close to the French president, Emmanuel Macron, later claimed an extension was “not a given” and needed to be justified. “But we have nothing of the sort so far”, the source said. “Pressure must be maintained.”
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I am genuinely confused, could one of our poll experts help me out here please? I’m looking at the poll that supposedly showed a majority saying violence towards MP was a price worth paying for their preferred Brexit outcome, and I’m damned if I can find it.

Poll is here: https://www.cardiff.ac.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0008/1708631/Copy-of-England-16-Oct-AH.pdf

It seems to show a clear majority saying it wouldn’t be a risk worth taking. Am I just losing my marbles or something?
 
Kentonio said:
I am genuinely confused, could one of our poll experts help me out here please? I’m looking at the poll that supposedly showed a majority saying violence towards MP was a price worth paying for their preferred Brexit outcome, and I’m damned if I can find it.

Poll is here: https://www.cardiff.ac.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0008/1708631/Copy-of-England-16-Oct-AH.pdf

It seems to show a clear majority saying it wouldn’t be a risk worth taking. Am I just losing my marbles or something?
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Under the "some have said leaving the european union...." section 71% of leavers say it would be worth it, while under the "some have suggested that stopping Brexit..." section 58% of remainers say it would be worth it.
 
sullydnl said:
Under the "some have said leaving the european union...." section 71% of leavers say it would be worth it, while under the "some have suggested that stopping Brexit..." section 58% of remainers say it would be worth it.
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Ah so it’s only if you take people self declaring as one or the other? Because the media have been saying a majority of people, which doesn’t seem to be the case at all from the totals in that poll.
 
4bars said:
Of course I didn't mean been depleted of civil servants but just the parliament and legislation there

And no, anarchy is not right wing and nor left wing
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I understand my wording was clumsy and open to interpretation but I was talking about things like the Patriot Movement in the US not anarchists.
 
Quite unbelievable that the opposition can't form a government under these circumstances.
 
Kentonio said:
Ah so it’s only if you take people self declaring as one or the other? Because the media have been saying a majority of people, which doesn’t seem to be the case at all from the totals in that poll.
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It's also a piece of crap with awful methodology:

 
Adisa said:
Quite unbelievable that the opposition can't form a government under these circumstances.
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Not really the unusual thing would be if they did. Even if it's a Tory alternative PM you're still relying on those hoping to be Tories again and they just won't intervene to that level.
 
Fluctuation0161 said:
It would help if the Lib Dems were not yellow Tories.
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A far bigger help would be for Corbyn to stop trying to gain an electoral advantage by insisting on himself as temp PM and get behind Harman or Clarke (or both in a joint role seeing as they're Father and Mother of the HoC).
 
NWRed said:
He can't do that if Johnson withdraws it, and it doesn't mean he wouldn't back a confirmatory ref on it if there were the numbers to pass an amendment on it.
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But there isn't. Also a lot confidence your putting in someone who just voted to further Boris deal, why did Clarke vote this way ?

A national government of unity even with Corbyn as caretaker PM was always a pretty stupid idea but one without him is borderline delusional. The only way now to get another referendum is if the labour party wins the next election(Be it a majority or progressive alliance), anything else is just playing fantasy football but with politics.
 
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