Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

  • Total voters
    194
  • Poll closed .
golden_blunder said:
Genuine question, why do people care about how long it takes as opposed to getting the right deal for the country? Just stop watching the news if it winds you up so much
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There is no 'right' deal. Labour's position is essentially to remain so close to the EU that the UK won't become an independent trading nation. In effect we'd still essentially be in the EU but under much worse terms than we used to be.

The way I see it is that we either revoke or go out on something like Boris's deal where we have take some pain and reestablish ourselves. Labour's position would be the worst of all worlds.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
The UK have to be gone or stay by June, one way or another
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Maybe. But we can't rule anything out, surely the last 3.5 years has shown that.

Another 2 years of this! You have to be kidding - the world does not revolve around the UK
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I want this whole embarrassing episode to finish asap, but not at the cost of Johnson's hard brexit, or worse, no deal brexit. The EU will continue showing patience, I hope. None of us know just how far that will stretch, but if our side weren't as obnoxious, it would be far easier for them.

A compromise is not suggesting an impossibility, he deserves zero credit for that. It's either total stupidity or lying to con his supporters.
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Are you talking about the 'A' customs union thing here? He has always said that was a starting point, and I think it's fairly widely conceded that 1) The EU would gladly open discussions on this point(despite your long held assertion that they would not reopen the agreement) and 2) This position would very likely mean something between full CU/SM and Canada plus type model. You know, the sort of deal that was promised before the referendum. I wouldn't like that, but at least it's deliverable and what was voted for.

You do realise that Corbyn voted to trigger A50 and whipped his MPs under a Tory majority government who could have passed any agreement they liked
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Was he really supposed to go against the democratic vote? Within weeks of the vote? BEFORE we knew(so clearly at least) that the tories literally had no plans? That is a strange thing to criticise him for. Can you imagine the press outcry had he whipped against art.50?

He also voted against and whipped his MPs to vote against May's deal which would have prevented no deal , which would have assured the UK stayed in the EU safety net until the magical solution was found which wouldn't have been
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It was a terrible deal. The fault for which lies with May and her red lines. Not to mention the fact that had he helped to deliver brexit, people like you would never have stopped going on about it.

now he's voted against this deal, which is obviously worse than May's but nevertheless is better than no deal but by doing so has actually kept no deal on the table.
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Why should he accept the no deal as a fallback position? That's the tories tactic, not his.


Look, I know we come from the same side regarding brexit. I just don't know what else Corbyn could realistically have done.

Here we are, 3.5 years later and we haven't left yet. If we do end up leaving on a hard or no deal brexit, then Corbyn's time will probably be up. But while he and others can still navigate the narrow path to remain, they deserve some credit and, imho, some support. It's not an easy task against what has mostly been a majority tory government.
 
Its building up to the perfect scenario for a default 'No deal' next week, with everyone blaming everybody else, "you first...No You first...".

Is it just me, but since the vote last week I've not heard one Brexiteer MP mention 'No deal', by default'. Sinister intent do you think, bit of misinformation going on, well we will see soon enough? Politicians so engrossed in their Machiavellian games the miss the obvious! Surely not!
 
Classical Mechanic said:
There is no 'right' deal. Labour's position is essentially to remain so close to the EU that the UK won't become an independent trading nation. In effect we'd still essentially be in the EU but under much worse terms than we used to be.

The way I see it is that we either revoke or go out on something like Boris's deal where we have take some pain and reestablish ourselves. Labour's position would be the worst of all worlds.
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Yeah but my question was more about why do people moan or worry that it takes too long? I mean the future of the country is at stake
 
Classical Mechanic said:
There is no 'right' deal. Labour's position is essentially to remain so close to the EU that the UK won't become an independent trading nation. In effect we'd still essentially be in the EU but under much worse terms than we used to be.

The way I see it is that we either revoke or go out on something like Boris's deal where we have take some pain and reestablish ourselves. Labour's position would be the worst of all worlds.
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:wenger:
 
Flying high said:
Maybe. But we can't rule anything out, surely the last 3.5 years has shown that.

I want this whole embarrassing episode to finish asap, but not at the cost of Johnson's hard brexit, or worse, no deal brexit. The EU will continue showing patience, I hope. None of us know just how far that will stretch, but if our side weren't as obnoxious, it would be far easier for them.

Are you talking about the 'A' customs union thing here? He has always said that was a starting point, and I think it's fairly widely conceded that 1) The EU would gladly open discussions on this point(despite your long held assertion that they would not reopen the agreement) and 2) This position would very likely mean something between full CU/SM and Canada plus type model. You know, the sort of deal that was promised before the referendum. I wouldn't like that, but at least it's deliverable and what was voted for.

Was he really supposed to go against the democratic vote? Within weeks of the vote? BEFORE we knew(so clearly at least) that the tories literally had no plans? That is a strange thing to criticise him for. Can you imagine the press outcry had he whipped against art.50?

It was a terrible deal. The fault for which lies with May and her red lines. Not to mention the fact that had he helped to deliver brexit, people like you would never have stopped going on about it.

Why should he accept the no deal as a fallback position? That's the tories tactic, not his.

Look, I know we come from the same side regarding brexit. I just don't know what else Corbyn could realistically have done.

Here we are, 3.5 years later and we haven't left yet. If we do end up leaving on a hard or no deal brexit, then Corbyn's time will probably be up. But while he and others can still navigate the narrow path to remain, they deserve some credit and, imho, some support. It's not an easy task against what has mostly been a majority tory government.
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Nothing can be ruled out but I believe patience is now at stretching point - this could go on for years and years until a majority government decides once and for all.

What changes now is that the EU have a new commission starting soon, they have a new parliament with MEPs waiting in the wings to take the UK MEPs places and they will have a new 7 year budget to agree next year, either the UK are in or out. Plus they want to push on with normal business, new trade deals with other countries and so on.

The EU would welcome the UK staying in the CU. Turkey are in a customs union but there is still a hard border. You can't have Britain doing their own trade policy being in the CU. You cannot have the same benefits of the SM without being in it. You can't be in the SM and not have FoM or ECJ jurisdiction. The EU of course noted Labour's proposal as a starting point but it should be clear by now that they will never ever compromise the 4 freedoms. Canada model is a FTA which will eventually be agreed, how far in the future is anybody's guess.

Any Brexit deal is a terrible deal for the UK, even if it was the mildest staying in the CU and SM because you'd still be in it in but without a vote, why leave? Plus I know the Brexieters are a bit on the slow side but they're not that stupid to tell them they've left but haven't really.

Nobody had any plans because very few of them realised what it meant. He couldn't have stopped A50 being triggered but he could have raised some objection or abstained wanting to know what the plan was before A50 was triggered not happily go along with it. Since May made the mistake of calling an election, he could have been more aggressive.

Firstly I don't believe he wants to remain but if he does then my biggest criticism of him is that he's so wishy-washy. He has no authority and aggressiveness, he's supposed to be in opposition of the weakest government in years and somehow manages to look worse than them.

Being on the same side re Brexit I'm thinking that of all the people these awful Tories could have faced it had to be someone as weak as Corbyn. They surely can't believe their luck.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
Remaining in a customs union means that the UK will not become an independent trading nation which is pretty much the key reason for leaving. The 'credible' deal that Corbyn wants to negotiate is levels of bullshit.
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Surely if we're better off economically under such a deal, and Labour have a mandate to negotiate that deal if they win an election, then it'd be better than inflicting economic pain upon ourselves for no real reason?

In fact, you could argue it'd be a fair compromise - Leave won the referendum and so Brexit happens, but since they only won narrowly and can't command a majority for any specific type of Brexit, we opt for the softest available. It won't satisfy Leavers, of course...but they've had more than enough time to come up with their own viable plan and secure nationwide approval for it.
 
Cheesy said:
Surely if we're better off economically under such a deal, and Labour have a mandate to negotiate that deal if they win an election, then it'd be better than inflicting economic pain upon ourselves for no real reason?

In fact, you could argue it'd be a fair compromise - Leave won the referendum and so Brexit happens, but since they only won narrowly and can't command a majority for any specific type of Brexit, we opt for the softest available. It won't satisfy Leavers, of course...but they've had more than enough time to come up with their own viable plan and secure nationwide approval for it.
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I don't think a pretend Brexit is a compromise at all, it simply isn't Brexit. It's just drastically reducing our terms within the EU, not becoming an independent trading nation and becoming a rule taker instead of maker. I guess it would cap off the ludicrous stupidity that has been Brexit and might be fitting in that sense.

Don't labour want to put it in a referendum anyway so you'd have pretend Brexit vs Remain, hows that going to unite the nation?
 
Classical Mechanic said:
Remaining in a customs union means that the UK will not become an independent trading nation which is pretty much the key reason for leaving. The 'credible' deal that Corbyn wants to negotiate is levels of bullshit.
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The key reason for leaving is to kick out all the migrates have controls on migration and to bring back the empire, thats actually the reason people vote to leave.

Corbyn deal which is to negation a Labour deal and put it to a referendum(While also possibly giving EU citizens and 16 years old the vote). Is not only completely fine and ideal but guarantees Remain the win.

So stop with these bizarre political fantasies of revoking the 2016 result and British self hated/''self sacrifice''.
 
Sweet Square said:
The key reason for leaving is to kick out all the migrates have controls on migration and to bring back the empire, thats actually the reason people vote to leave.

Corbyn deal which is to negation a Labour deal and put it to a referendum(While also possibly giving EU citizens and 16 years old the vote) is not only completely fine and ideal but guarantees Remain the win.

So stop with these bizarre political fantasies of revoking the 2016 result and British self hated/''self sacrifice''.
Its really stupid.
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You're trying to tell me to stop fantasising whilst acknowledging that Corbyn's plan is going to guarantee that we remain! How will that unite the nation, how stupid do you think people are?
 
Sweet Square said:
Corbyn deal which is to negation a Labour deal and put it to a referendum(While also possibly giving EU citizens and 16 years old the vote). Is not only completely fine and ideal but guarantees Remain the win.

.
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sorry... thats completly fine... to put a false choice to the public because you have guaranteed one side wins

FFS your echo chamber is a strange place
 
Beachryan said:
Can anyone articulate a coherent argument against a referendum on the actual deal that would take Britain out of the EU?

If you want Brexit, great, vote for it now that you know precisely what it means.
If you don't want Brexit, great, vote against it now that you know precisely what it means.
If you were unsure, now you have the actual terms so you can make an educated decision.

If it passes, there can be no doubt in parliament and it will move ahead much more smoothly. If it fails, we can all move on and get back to actually doing something.
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Leavers don't want a 2nd referendum because they know they won't win it.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
Don't labour want to put it in a referendum anyway so you'd have pretend Brexit vs Remain, hows that going to unite the nation?
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They expect no one to notice that the remain option has already been rejected in the first referendum and shouldn't be on the second ballot at all; or, that these leave voters are so stupid, that they will think it is a real Brexit, despite what Farage will be shouting from the roof tops! Or possibly they think a majority of Leave voters will have a sudden conversion to the remain cause overnight because of project fear Mk 2, 3, or is it 4 has won them over?

The EU have probably, or soon will, run out of patience. Macron it seems may have already come to a decision that in fact 'No deal' is better that continuing purgatory for everyone. Even if by some miracle the UK decided to stay, do the other countries really want to face this kind of torture every few years, by a member who is not really a fully committed member, who still demands opt outs, rebates, etc. who will vote against further integration, against a EU army, and will have 29 recalcitrant MEPS in the EU Parliament, carrying out a guerrilla campaign of disruption?

Nothing will now reunite the nation, (soon anyway) indeed the very existence of the UK itself is in danger of breaking up, Brexit is a wound that cuts very deep on both sides. The EU should wash its hands of us now, before we bring the whole house down... bet that's what Boris has been telling Macron!
 
Any expectations on "uniting the nation" are pointless. That ship sailed as soon as Cameron called the referendum. Now on Brexit it comes down to what you prefer more, less damage as you can on the economy or more controls over migrants coming in.
 
Maticmaker said:
They expect no one to notice that the remain option has already been rejected in the first referendum and shouldn't be on the second ballot at all; or, that these leave voters are so stupid, that they will think it is a real Brexit, despite what Farage will be shouting from the roof tops! Or possibly they think a majority of Leave voters will have a sudden conversion to the remain cause overnight because of project fear Mk 2, 3, or is it 4 has won them over?

The EU have probably, or soon will, run out of patience. Macron it seems may have already come to a decision that in fact 'No deal' is better that continuing purgatory for everyone. Even if by some miracle the UK decided to stay, do the other countries really want to face this kind of torture every few years, by a member who is not really a fully committed member, who still demands opt outs, rebates, etc. who will vote against further integration, against a EU army, and will have 29 recalcitrant MEPS in the EU Parliament, carrying out a guerrilla campaign of disruption?

Nothing will now reunite the nation, (soon anyway) indeed the very existence of the UK itself is in danger of breaking up, Brexit is a wound that cuts very deep on both sides. The EU should wash its hands of us now, before we bring the whole house down... bet that's what Boris has been telling Macron!
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I disagree on your first point. I think the only options you can have on a referendum are Remain and a real leave option.

I know nothing will unite the nation but gaming a referendum with no real leave option would massively inflame tensions in my opinion.

If the EU really felt they were better off bouncing us out then shouldn't they, errr - gerronwitttt?
 
Classical Mechanic said:
You're trying to tell me to stop fantasising whilst acknowledging that Corbyn's plan is going to guarantee that we remain! How will that unite the nation, how stupid do you think people are?
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Firstly your idea of ''uniting the nation'' is just revoking the last result or going out on Boris deal thus increasing suffering and inequality. Both of these options don't ''united the nation'' .

But more importantly uniting the nation is meaningless term. Its an impossible act to perform. It's at best just a nice sounding sound bite. Britain is a capitalist nation etc etc etc. You get the point!

So with that, what are the best options available. The answer is remaining in the EU and the great thing is the best way to get this result is making Britain a more democratic nation - letting 16 years old and EU citizen have the vote(Also gives a massive boost for left parties in the future).



sun_tzu said:
sorry... thats completly fine... to put a false choice to the public because you have guaranteed one side wins

FFS your echo chamber is a strange place
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Wtf are you about ? Its no different than when non property owners won the right to vote(After seeing your views on i.d cards I'm not sure to ask your views on this) it caused a massive boost for the labour movement.

If Labour win the next election with a manifesto that contains giving 16 year olds and EU nationals the right to vote and these two groups vote massively in favour of Remain(Which they would)in another referendum , that isn't a ''false choice'' but democracy.
 
Sweet Square said:
:wenger:
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Labour's insistence on a customs union means we will be on the menu for any future EU trade deals with no say. Labour are trying to get around this by saying their position is a CU with a seat around the table for any future trade deals, the EU aren't going to give a non member veto rights over their trade deals so either they'll say no or it will literally be a seat around the table where we can watch our economy being sold by the EU for it's benefit.

There are only 2 positions that make even the remotest sense, being in and a full member or being out negotiating on our own.

Unfortunately for the Brexiteers the latter means we'll be screwed by everyone because we'll be in such a weaker position than the huge economies out there like the EU, US, China and in the future India, and we could never hope to replace the trade we do with EU with trade with those far off places anyway.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
I disagree on your first point. I think the only options you can have on a referendum are Remain and a real leave option.

I know nothing will unite the nation but gaming a referendum with no real leave option would massively inflame tensions in my opinion.

If the EU really felt they were better off bouncing us out then shouldn't they, errr - gerronwitttt?
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Yes, my first point was 'tong in cheek' in the context of re-uniting everyone. However if a team beat a rival, but then had the losers complaining that the winners didn't know what they were doing when they scored more goals than them, we would all be splitting our sides laughing. I suppose 'consent of the 'losers' was missing first time around and I suspect so it would be in any second or third or fourth ballot!

As you say gaming a referendum beyond the boundaries of what caused the argument in the first place would not only inflame tensions, but would have no value whatsoever, and as above the consent of the losers would be the issue.

There will come a point for some EU countries where 'bouncing us' even without a deal will start to apply as a preferred option, if not now, then certainly some time in 2020, if the members states veto is still in place, then we will be out on our ear! I suspect this is one reason Boris himself hasn't given up on the 31st Oct, even though everyone else including members of his cabinet, seem to have done so. For once (the one and only time) Boris and Macron might be in the same corner?
 
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Honest John said:
I think there's a school of thought that suggests that if you removed government in all its forms, the initial turmoil would eventually settle into harmony and equilibrium.

Someone on here will know better than me regarding that theory.
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Actually Belgium was almost 600 days without a government and I read back in the day that the economic figures were better than the last year with government
 
4bars said:
Actually Belgium was almost 600 days without a government and I read back in the day that the economic figures were better than the last year with government
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Depends totally on what you mean by "without a government", there would still have been the infrastructure of a modern state such as civil servants to administer and police/army/hospitals etc doing their jobs.

The idea that no government leads to a paradise of equality and freedom is a right wing nut job fantasy espoused by gun toting morons.
 
NWRed said:
Depends totally on what you mean by "without a government", there would still have been the infrastructure of a modern state such as civil servants to administer and police/army/hospitals etc doing their jobs.

The idea that no government leads to a paradise of equality and freedom is a right wing nut job fantasy espoused by gun toting morons.
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I thought that was the anarchists?
 
I've always said anything Corbyn does on here will be opposed by some on here and this just proves it.

We have apparent remainers arguing that Boris deal is now better than a deal involving staying in the custom union? Because leavers will get upset or one of several tory parroted lines about independence or unity or blah blah.
 
Smores said:
I've always said anything Corbyn does on here will be opposed by some on here and this just proves it.

We have apparent remainers arguing that Boris deal is now better than a deal involving staying in the custom union? Because leavers will get upset or one of several tory parroted lines about independence or unity or blah blah.
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You do understand that staying in a CU is just a different version of leaving, something remainers are opposed to.
 
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Smores said:
I've always said anything Corbyn does on here will be opposed by some on here and this just proves it.

We have apparent remainers arguing that Boris deal is now better than a deal involving staying in the custom union? Because leavers will get upset or one of several tory parroted lines about independence or unity or blah blah.
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The problem with that is Corbyn hasn't proposed staying in the custom's union.

In fact Corbyn hasn't proposed anything sensible. He's proposed nonsense.
 
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NWRed said:
You do understand that staying in a CU is just a different version of leaving, something remainders are opposed to.
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Yep. As a remainer I could have settled for Norway or something like that. Staying in the single market was key and my red line. The customs union alone is a hard brexit and I can’t support that.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
I don't think a pretend Brexit is a compromise at all, it simply isn't Brexit. It's just drastically reducing our terms within the EU, not becoming an independent trading nation and becoming a rule taker instead of maker. I guess it would cap off the ludicrous stupidity that has been Brexit and might be fitting in that sense.

Don't labour want to put it in a referendum anyway so you'd have pretend Brexit vs Remain, hows that going to unite the nation?
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It is though - the referendum was simply asking whether or not we would be a member of the European Union or not. If Brexiteers wanted something more concrete they should've put forward a more concrete, hardline question in the referendum vote - they didn't because they knew it'd have failed, and because the only way for Brexit to happen was to make things vague enough that people could project their own desires onto leaving the EU.

I'm struggling to see a reason to pander to Brexiteers when they've had years to formulate a coherent plan that can command a majority in the parliament they proclaim they wanted to restore sovereignty to. If they end up with a neutered Brexit then that's their fault.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
Remaining in a customs union means that the UK will not become an independent trading nation which is pretty much the key reason for leaving. The 'credible' deal that Corbyn wants to negotiate is levels of bullshit.
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It is the best possible deal by which we leave the EU. We shouldn't leave but if we do it should be on terms that have the least detrimental effect on the economy.
 
Smores said:
I've always said anything Corbyn does on here will be opposed by some on here and this just proves it.

We have apparent remainers arguing that Boris deal is now better than a deal involving staying in the custom union? Because leavers will get upset or one of several tory parroted lines about independence or unity or blah blah.
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Ultimately Brexiteers will be unhappy whatever happens - even if they get their ideal Brexit, they'll inevitably be pissed off when it doesn't lead to the economic or social paradise they've been promised - in such situations Remainers who didn't believe hard enough or whatever will be blamed. Pandering to the most extreme Brexiteers assumes they're logical and rational and reasonable - a lot of them aren't, and understand that in politics you can gain quite a lot by pushing things as far in your own direction as possible.

On the issue of Brexit I'm just not sure people in general can be united at this stage. Remainers as well have become increasingly polarised and insistent on their own (sometimes unreasonable) demands. Once it's all over and done with the best means toward reconciliation at a national level will be just trying to move on - although I imagine the issue itself will continue to fester in various forms for years.
 
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