Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

  • Total voters
    194
  • Poll closed .
Cheesy said:
I'd rather be independent as a nation (whether that be Scotland or the UK) than be a US-like state within a larger, wider nation. Obviously Brexit wasn't about actual independence (since we have that at the moment), but I don't think it'd be a particularly good idea for the majority of Europe to be beholden to a government which, for many of the countries, could be a continent away with a massively different culture/style of government.
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Well as someone who'd like to see some kind of federal Europe, the thinking is that as everything from companies to terrorist groups start to operate on an international scale, governments should do the same to ensure that the people in control are the governments which have some control on them from the voting public. While Europe would (and should) never be as centralised as the USA due to the vastly different culture and circumstances, I think there should be some powers handled at the Europe-wide level because I believe it would be more effective.

Besides larger countries like China and the USA are all going to look after their own interests and have the capacity to pressure the relatively smaller European countries in doing things they might not want to. Only by banding together can they stand up to those outside pressures.

Regarding the democratic accountability thing that some have brought up, that actually annoys me. The UK has a monarch as head of state, a completely unelected upper house which includes 26 bishops and 92 peers who inherit their seat (inheritance is often limited to men only apparently) as well as a prime minister that is chosen by a couple hundred thousand party members at best and a few hundred MPs at worst and a cabinet that is chosen by that prime minister. Not to mention how many of them come from a handful of schools seemingly.

The British political system wouldn't have looked out of place in times before the EU even existed. British people don't have much more influence on British politics than European people do on European politics.
 
"This is exactly what most economists were saying would happen."

But hey, the British people are tired of listening to experts...
 
I never seen a country who intentionally push the recession button. What's wrong with you?
 
FlawlessThaw said:
Is there any Euroskeptic feeling in Ireland? I got to say Brexit could be the best thing to happen for the Irish economy in a long time.
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Ireland from what I can see is pro-EU, its done well out of it.

The Irish economy could be affected negatively, the banks etc are so entwined at this point. But yeah, long term we could pick up multi-national work

ironically with the Brexit result it could see NI being returned to Ireland again
 
FlawlessThaw said:
Is there any Euroskeptic feeling in Ireland? I got to say Brexit could be the best thing to happen for the Irish economy in a long time.
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I am not Irish, so I can´t really say anything about that. Sorry. Someone else might be able to help you.

In the short run Brexit will be bad for Irland, because both countries are strongly interconnected. The uncertainty and turmoil during/after England leaving the EU will create negative spillover (at least if they leave the single market). I have no clue how it might turn out in the long run. I doubt that anyone really knows that.
 
FlawlessThaw said:
Is there any Euroskeptic feeling in Ireland? I got to say Brexit could be the best thing to happen for the Irish economy in a long time.
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According to the Irish Times, support for Ireland's place in the EU has actually risen and was already pretty high.
Asked if the UK was right or wrong to leave the EU, more than four out of five voters (81 per cent) said that the decision was wrong. Just 12 per cent said the UK was right, while 7 per cent said they didn’t know.
...
Support for remaining a member of the EU closely mirrored views on the British decision to leave. Less than one in 10 voters (9 per cent) are in favour of following Britain out of the union, while a whopping majority (86 per cent) believe Ireland should stay in. Five per cent say they don’t know.
...
Last October a similar poll for The Irish Times asked, if Britain voted to leave the EU, whether Ireland should follow. Nearly three-quarters of respondents (74 per cent) then said that Ireland should stay in. Today, in the wake of the British decision to leave, the numbers in favour of staying have risen to 86 per cent. In Ireland at least, the threat to the union has strengthened people’s attachment to it.
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This stat was particularly interesting:
Support for remaining in the EU rises from 85 per cent among the youngest voters to 89 per cent among the oldest.
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I think Britian should have voted Remain so it's probably not surprising that I think Ireland should too. I do think Ireland will most probably be damaged by Britain leaving but Ireland being the last English speaking country (afaik) in the EU does present oppurtunities in attracting American businesses (which is basically our national sport). There's been a lot of talk here about a United Ireland as Northern Ireland voted Remain (just) but I think that's very unlikely and the amount of trouble that would be stirred up by moving in that direction would probably be enough to put everyone off the idea.

Another thing I remember seeing was that in NI, the parts that felt the most British were far more likely to vote Remain than the parts that felt more Irish.

EDIT: Found the image here. I don't know how true it is though.
 
Stanley Road said:
I'd consider this a win if it goes through

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/24/brexit-deal-free-movement-exemption-seven-years

Plans to allow the United Kingdom an exemption from EU rules on freedom of movement for up to seven years while retaining access to the single market are being considered in European capitals as part of a potential deal on Brexit.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but is that not the EEA deal and perhaps a slightly stronger version of what, more or less, Cameron negotiated before the vote?

In his attempt to renegotiate the terms of the UK’s EU membership before the referendum, Cameron secured a limited emergency brake that would have enabled Britain to restrict and phase in EU migrants’ access to in-work benefits for the four years after they first arrived in this country.
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And on the other hand, we'd have to pay an access fee similar to what we actually currently do, and for the first time actually be subjected to EU laws without influencing them.

Its definitely one of the better options out there, but its hard to see how this is a win for the Leavers.
 
Stanley Road said:
I'd consider this a win if it goes through

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/24/brexit-deal-free-movement-exemption-seven-years

Plans to allow the United Kingdom an exemption from EU rules on freedom of movement for up to seven years while retaining access to the single market are being considered in European capitals as part of a potential deal on Brexit.
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Do we still get to negotiate our own deals on top of this?

Would still be worried about being part of the single market with no control over it anyway, imagine if our companies start beating out their French/German competitors, what happens next? The French/Germans can bend the rules to whichever manner they like. Much better to see if we can get this brake whilst maintaining full membership.
 
endless_wheelies said:
Do we still get to negotiate our own deals on top of this?
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As per what is mentioned in the article, Yes. That said I dont think the EU will agree to such a good deal for the UK. We will end up with some form of free movement from day one I suppose.

endless_wheelies said:
Would still be worried about being part of the single market with no control over it anyway, imagine if our companies start beating out their French/German competitors, what happens next? The French/Germans can bend the rules to whichever manner they like. Much better to see if we can get this brake whilst maintaining full membership.
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This can not happen. The rules stay the same for all companies British or EU.

Also, the full membership boat has sailed for good. Not going to happen now.
 
AshfordLad said:
As per what is mentioned in the article, Yes. That said I dont think the EU will agree to such a good deal for the UK. We will end up with some form of free movement from day one I suppose.

This can not happen. The rules stay the same for all companies British or EU.
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Why wouldn't the EU accept this deal? Bare in mind most EU countries are very much in favour of free movement, a brake of this kind combined with us still having to fill the EU coffers with membership fees (now minus the rebates) and no longer having any say in its direction probably wouldn't see too many envious glances cast in our direction, whilst still being very economically beneficial to them.

The principle of free movement has to stay the same for all companies but there's still lots of little rules and regulations that they're fiddling with all the time, they could quite easily mess around with these to cut our competitive advantages if they felt so inclined.
 
endless_wheelies said:
Why wouldn't the EU accept this deal? Bare in mind most EU countries are very much in favour of free movement, a brake of this kind combined with us still having to fill the EU coffers with membership fees (now minus the rebates) and no longer having any say in its direction probably wouldn't see too many envious glances cast in our direction, whilst still being very economically beneficial to them.
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They wont agree to 7 years of border controls for EU nationals.

They gave us 4 when there was still a chance to stop us from leaving. What makes you think they will give a more generous offer now.

I think we will need to take free movement from day one.

endless_wheelies said:
The principle of free movement has to stay the same for all companies but there's still lots of little rules and regulations that they're fiddling with all the time, they could quite easily mess around with these to cut our competitive advantages if they felt so inclined.
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Give me one example? This simply can not happen withouth the EU companies getting hurt by the same regulation.
 
AshfordLad said:
They wont agree to 7 years of border controls for EU nationals.

They gave us 4 when there was still a chance to stop us from leaving. What makes you think they will give a more generous offer now.

I think we will need to take free movement from day one.

Give me one example? This simply can not happen withouth the EU companies getting hurt by the same regulation.
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Because they aren't addressing an idle threat, they're addressing the fact that we're leaving the EU. It's the only way they can keep us and not "technically" damage the integrity of their four defining principles. Theresa May has made it clear that this was as much a vote about immigration as anything else. Therefore you could also easily see how we could remain a full member if we can get this emergency brake combined with our membership, public opinion would be sure to change with this if it hadn't already.

I'm no expert but I know the single market laws are many and complicated, I don't think it would be too hard, if for example British companies were dominating the teapot market at the expense of French/German companies, for the French/Germans to implement a quota saying that you can only produce a certain amount in a particular location due to eco-laws, or extra customer-fairness legislation dictating their quality if those are things that will slow us down and allow the French/Germans to catch up.
 
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On similar news what do people think of a potential free trade deal with China? Hard to see China agreeing to any deal on terms that wouldn't finish the job on British industry.
 
NinjaFletch said:
On similar news what do people think of a potential free trade deal with China? Hard to see China agreeing to any deal on terms that wouldn't finish the job on British industry.
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It reads more like a gimmick for the EU deal negotiations than their being an actual chance of a trade deal.
 
NinjaFletch said:
On similar news what do people think of a potential free trade deal with China? Hard to see China agreeing to any deal on terms that wouldn't finish the job on British industry.
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Well it's what the majority of those in the manufacturing sector voted for...
 
Stanley Road said:
I'd consider this a win if it goes through

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/24/brexit-deal-free-movement-exemption-seven-years

Plans to allow the United Kingdom an exemption from EU rules on freedom of movement for up to seven years while retaining access to the single market are being considered in European capitals as part of a potential deal on Brexit.
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Its what i said would happen and for me its a sensible policy for any EU state never mind just EFTA.

Im not sure its a new offer though its just confirmation that they wouldnt block us from having the kind of deal other countries already have.
 
The UK could be heading for a “hard rather than a soft Brexit” – with Nicola Sturgeon raising fears this could leave the country with “limited access” to the single market and “significant restrictions” on free movement of people.

The First Minister also warned that efforts to keep the UK economy competitive outside of the European Union could spark a “race to the bottom” which would have “devastating” consequences for workers’ rights.

She said a drive towards deregulation could “open up rather than close down opportunities for tax avoidance and tax evasion”.

Ms Sturgeon voiced her concerns as she addressed business leaders, charities and public-sector organisations at an event in Edinburgh hosted by the IPPR Scotland think-tank.

Although the UK as a whole voted to leave the EU last month, almost two-thirds (62 per cent) of Scottish voters backed remain .

While the Scottish Government has been exploring options to retain the country’s links with Europe, Ms Sturgeon conceded there are “substantial” barriers towards achieving this as part of the UK’s Brexit deal.

“I don’t underestimate the challenge of finding such a solution,” the SNP leader said.

“Even if we can agree a position at UK level, we would face the task of persuading the EU to agree it. The barriers are substantial.”

She added that with the UK facing “uncertainty, upheaval and unpredictability”, for Scotland it “may well be that the option that offers us the greatest certainty, stability and the maximum control over our own destiny is that of independence”.

While the Leave vote has heralded the arrival of new Prime Minister Theresa May, Ms Sturgeon claimed the Tory’s statement that “Brexit means Brexit” was “just a soundbite that masks a lack of any clear sense of direction”.

The UK does not yet have “any clear explanation of what a Leave vote means in practice”, Ms Sturgeon insisted.

“If we can read anything from the early signs, whether from government appointments or initial pronouncements, it is, though I hope I am wrong about this, that the UK is heading towards a hard rather than a soft Brexit.”

Ms Sturgeon said that meant a “future outside the single market, with only limited access and significant restrictions on free movement”.

Ms Sturgeon said she bore a “share of the responsibility” for the failure of the Remain campaign to convince a majority of UK voters.

She added: “Much of the blame for what happened on June 23 lies with the UK government’s ideological obsession with austerity, with its decision to make ordinary people pay the price of a financial crash they didn’t cause and with its cynical collusion in the myth that cuts and public service pressures are the fault of migrants, rather than a direct result of deliberate economic policy.”
 
Drifter said:
The UK could be heading for a “hard rather than a soft Brexit” – with Nicola Sturgeon raising fears this could leave the country with “limited access” to the single market and “significant restrictions” on free movement of people.

The First Minister also warned that efforts to keep the UK economy competitive outside of the European Union could spark a “race to the bottom” which would have “devastating” consequences for workers’ rights.

She said a drive towards deregulation could “open up rather than close down opportunities for tax avoidance and tax evasion”.

Ms Sturgeon voiced her concerns as she addressed business leaders, charities and public-sector organisations at an event in Edinburgh hosted by the IPPR Scotland think-tank.

Although the UK as a whole voted to leave the EU last month, almost two-thirds (62 per cent) of Scottish voters backed remain .

While the Scottish Government has been exploring options to retain the country’s links with Europe, Ms Sturgeon conceded there are “substantial” barriers towards achieving this as part of the UK’s Brexit deal.

“I don’t underestimate the challenge of finding such a solution,” the SNP leader said.

“Even if we can agree a position at UK level, we would face the task of persuading the EU to agree it. The barriers are substantial.”

She added that with the UK facing “uncertainty, upheaval and unpredictability”, for Scotland it “may well be that the option that offers us the greatest certainty, stability and the maximum control over our own destiny is that of independence”.

While the Leave vote has heralded the arrival of new Prime Minister Theresa May, Ms Sturgeon claimed the Tory’s statement that “Brexit means Brexit” was “just a soundbite that masks a lack of any clear sense of direction”.

The UK does not yet have “any clear explanation of what a Leave vote means in practice”, Ms Sturgeon insisted.

“If we can read anything from the early signs, whether from government appointments or initial pronouncements, it is, though I hope I am wrong about this, that the UK is heading towards a hard rather than a soft Brexit.”

Ms Sturgeon said that meant a “future outside the single market, with only limited access and significant restrictions on free movement”.

Ms Sturgeon said she bore a “share of the responsibility” for the failure of the Remain campaign to convince a majority of UK voters.

She added: “Much of the blame for what happened on June 23 lies with the UK government’s ideological obsession with austerity, with its decision to make ordinary people pay the price of a financial crash they didn’t cause and with its cynical collusion in the myth that cuts and public service pressures are the fault of migrants, rather than a direct result of deliberate economic policy.”
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Wow, I'm really shocked about her thinking, I mean who could possibly have guessed that the Leader of the Scottish Nationalists could have thought the whole thing through and then come to the logical conclusion that Scotland should be an independent country. Its just an amazing coincidence that before the Brexit vote she thought the exact same thing. Following the first referendum on Scottish independence she thought the exact same thing and if aliens land, I'm guessing the best response would be to move Scotland to independence too.

What next,

If your whites don't turn blueish white after washing use Scottish independence.

If your love life gets a little boring liven it up with Scottish independence.

If you get a headache a tense nervous headache take Scottish independence for fast effective relief.


Broken record...
 
Kentonio said:
Never ceases to amaze me how self obsessed we are as a country. France has just suffered through a sequence of terrors attacks that have killed a number of people, but that couldn't be why they might be busy at the moment, no it must be all about the Brits..
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Doesn't matter how busy they are it's utterly incompetent to have one person on border duty at their busiest border checkpoint. Unless of course they retired most of their other border staff on the introduction of Schengen.
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
Wow, I'm really shocked about her thinking, I mean who could possibly have guessed that the Leader of the Scottish Nationalists could have thought the whole thing through and then come to the logical conclusion that Scotland should be an independent country. Its just an amazing coincidence that before the Brexit vote she thought the exact same thing. Following the first referendum on Scottish independence she thought the exact same thing and if aliens land, I'm guessing the best response would be to move Scotland to independence too.

What next,

If your whites don't turn blueish white after washing use Scottish independence.

If your love life gets a little boring liven it up with Scottish independence.

If you get a headache a tense nervous headache take Scottish independence for fast effective relief.


Broken record...
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Nailed it. :lol:
 
Tyrion said:
According to the Irish Times, support for Ireland's place in the EU has actually risen and was already pretty high.


This stat was particularly interesting:


I think Britian should have voted Remain so it's probably not surprising that I think Ireland should too. I do think Ireland will most probably be damaged by Britain leaving but Ireland being the last English speaking country (afaik) in the EU does present oppurtunities in attracting American businesses (which is basically our national sport). There's been a lot of talk here about a United Ireland as Northern Ireland voted Remain (just) but I think that's very unlikely and the amount of trouble that would be stirred up by moving in that direction would probably be enough to put everyone off the idea.

Another thing I remember seeing was that in NI, the parts that felt the most British were far more likely to vote Remain than the parts that felt more Irish.

EDIT: Found the image here. I don't know how true it is though.
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Ireland will never leave the EU. We got fecked over by them during the banking crisis and we just took it with a smile.
Our farming industry relies on EU funding and if we leave that sector will collapse. Ireland as a country cannot afford our farms as stupid as that sounds.
 
cyberman said:
Ireland will never leave the EU. We got fecked over by them during the banking crisis and we just took it with a smile.
Our farming industry relies on EU funding and if we leave that sector will collapse. Ireland as a country cannot afford our farms as stupid as that sounds.
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Someone ought to let Farage know. He thinks the next EU exit will occur from Ireland. Wishful thinking
 
FlawlessThaw said:
Someone ought to let Farage know. He thinks the next EU exit will occur from Ireland. Wishful thinking
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He may as well have choosen Belguim itself as pick Ireland.
All of our small to medium farms rely on single farm payments from the EU to survive. Bigger farms receive so many grants etc that they are earning large amounts of money for following simple guidelines.
I own a farm and receive 5k a year just for fencing off a stretch of river that runs along the bottom of one of our fields. That's one of a number of schemes we are signed onto.
It's honestly ridiculous the amount of schemes that are available to us through the EU. If Ireland went on our own there isn't a chance farming survives in Ireland.
Farage is an idiot.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
GSK investing in the UK

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36901027

I heard a business expert on the BBC this morning estimating that the French EDF £80bn investment in the UK is looking likely to go ahead too. He did stress that there are a few bridges to be crossed still, however.
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its actually £18bn (24bn if you include financing costs) with 6bn paid for by the chinese so more like 12bn (4bn of which will probably be raised via a share offer)
Still a lot of money but not £80bn - thats HS2 level money not Hinkley level
 
sun_tzu said:
its actually £18bn (24bn if you include financing costs) with 6bn paid for by the chinese so more like 12bn (4bn of which will probably be raised via a share offer)
Still a lot of money but not £80bn - thats HS2 level money not Hinkley level
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Sorry. That was a typo. I just like to post any good business news to try and add some balance to all the doom mongering!
 
cyberman said:
He may as well have choosen Belguim itself as pick Ireland.
All of our small to medium farms rely on single farm payments from the EU to survive. Bigger farms receive so many grants etc that they are earning large amounts of money for following simple guidelines.
I own a farm and receive 5k a year just for fencing off a stretch of river that runs along the bottom of one of our fields. That's one of a number of schemes we are signed onto.
It's honestly ridiculous the amount of schemes that are available to us through the EU. If Ireland went on our own there isn't a chance farming survives in Ireland.
Farage is an idiot.
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that's interesting, I'd love to see the full list of grants available from the EU.
 
Red Defence said:
Doesn't matter how busy they are it's utterly incompetent to have one person on border duty at their busiest border checkpoint. Unless of course they retired most of their other border staff on the introduction of Schengen.
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I'm not going to go down the Daily Mail route of blaming this farce on some kind of punishment for Brexit (neither do I think it's got anything to do with the ongoing problems of terrorism in France), but you are totally correct to state that it is utterly incompetent. Someone at work was down in Norwich at the weekend visiting his daughter and he said in the space of a couple of hours the news reports had gone from stating delays of something like 10-12 hours to 2 hours, which appears to tell us that they suddenly put more staff on to deal with it.
 
cyberman said:
He may as well have choosen Belguim itself as pick Ireland.
All of our small to medium farms rely on single farm payments from the EU to survive. Bigger farms receive so many grants etc that they are earning large amounts of money for following simple guidelines.
I own a farm and receive 5k a year just for fencing off a stretch of river that runs along the bottom of one of our fields. That's one of a number of schemes we are signed onto.
It's honestly ridiculous the amount of schemes that are available to us through the EU. If Ireland went on our own there isn't a chance farming survives in Ireland.
Farage is an idiot.
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Feck me! :lol:
 
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