Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[nickm]

Indeed. The question for the Labour members is where do they go from here. Do they continue to support someone who is closely aligned with their ideals but is unlikely to be elected or do they go for someone else? There must be candidates who they can espouse and that can appear more competent (ergo, harder to perform character assassination on) than Ed Miliband and Jeremy Corbyn.

Putting a new leader into this Labour party might help a bit but it's lipstick on a pig, frankly. People don't seem to trust or like Labour very much and that's about policies as much as leadership.

Also this idea that it's the media's fault... it's really not. It's Labour's.

 

[Sweet Square]

Reality.

Firstly who talks about the UK or Europe like this

And I am quite certain that the majority race throughout the EU is Caucasian, which happens to be the majority race in the United Kingdom.

and then secondly as a way of saying voting to leave the EU wasn't based on racism because............ er remember this ?

Also we are leaving out xenophobia - White people can hate other white people from different countries.

Now the reasons why Britain left the EU are quite complex and aren't as simply as rich people tricking poor white northers. For example 20% of British Asians voted to leave the EU which again brings up some interesting questions. Plus other factors of why leave won - the effective of austerity, the ''failure'' of neo liberalism, empire nostalgia etc.

So to say -

So it's probably not a case of rich people and racists voting leave. Some did, but then some also voted to remain.

is well you heard it a million times already quite disingenuous.

 

[Raulduke]

Only a matter of time before Brexit got it's very own version of QAnon

 

[Peter van der Gea]

Reality.

I guess in your reality Aryans are only white too

 

[MadMike]

Putting a new leader into this Labour party might help a bit but it's lipstick on a pig, frankly. People don't seem to trust or like Labour very much and that's about policies as much as leadership.

Also this idea that it's the media's fault... it's really not. It's Labour's.

Policies change with the times and with leadership. Corbyn's labour is very different from that of Tony Blair's and that's a lot of change that happened in less than a decade.

Current Labour policies are indeed not very appealing to an increasingly old and conservative electorate. But to say Corbyn has not been demonised as well is disingenuous. I don't know if it's the mainstream media or social media harnessing that has managed to inflict that damage but it's obviously there. Some of the depictions of Corbyn cant coexist with each other (both tame/meek and a British Stalin) and are not in touch with reality. But somehow they got large parts of the populace convinced.

 

[Jippy]

That's interesting because some of the longest running anti EU sentiment comes from the hard left.

And I am quite certain that the majority race throughout the EU is Caucasian, which happens to be the majority race in the United Kingdom.

So it's probably not a case of rich people and racists voting leave. Some did, but then some also voted to remain.

What is your point here?

 

[Jippy]

The capitalist media have done an absolutely excellent job of destroying Corbyn and his credibility.

Soz Lenin.

 

[nickm]

Policies change with the times and with leadership. Corbyn's labour is very different from that of Tony Blair's and that's a lot of change that happened in less than a decade.

Current Labour policies are indeed not very appealing to an increasingly old and conservative electorate. But to say Corbyn has not been demonised as well is disingenuous. I don't know if it's the mainstream media or social media harnessing that has managed to inflict that damage but it's obviously there. Some of the depictions of Corbyn cant coexist with each other (both tame/meek and a British Stalin) and are not in touch with reality. But somehow they got large parts of the populace convinced.

Yes, he's been demonised. Yes, that's what happens when you put someone with that much baggage into the spotlight. No disrespect here but many, many people warned that Corbyn would make Labour unelectable, and they explained why, and guess what, they've been proven right - even if Labour itself needs apparently another good beating at the next election to really believe it themselves. (Anyway, there's a whole other thread about why Corbyn is useless, and I don't want to deflect this one).

 

[Massive Spanner]

What is your point here?

Apparently it's not racist to hate immigrants if 10% of the immigrants you let in are of a different race as opposed to like 50%.

 

[sammsky1]

Feels like afternoon before first leg for champions league semi final

Todays key timings, for anyone who wants to watch

1630: No deal preparations update

1830: Urgent No Deal debate

2230: Vote

 

[sun_tzu]

Feels like afternoon before first leg for champions league semi final

Todays key timings, for anyone who wants to watch.

1630: No deal preparations update

1830: Urgent No Deal debate

2230: Vote

the no deal debate today and vote is basically to see if they can have control of the order paper (presumably tomorrow) to actually debate extending and voting on that extension (request) to A50

Presuming they pass the bill today what happens if Boris was to call for a GE vote (or a vote of confidence in his government) tomorrow would that come before or after the bill to extend A50 - and who gets to choose that (the speaker or is it pre-determined what has precident?)

 

[Drifter]

Looking forward to Corbyn ramming it down the throats of those who think he's done again. But to be honest who would want to be in charge ,especially if there is a no brexit.

 

[Jippy]

Apparently it's not racist to hate immigrants if 10% of the immigrants you let in are of a different race as opposed to like 50%.

They always let their masks slip at some point.

 

[sammsky1]

In the actual deal being negotiated, what are the remaining sticking points and parameters for possible negotiation? Have we agreed to any of it?

 

[Jippy]

Looking forward to Corbyn ramming it down the throats of those who think he's done again. But to be honest who would want to be in charge ,especially if there is a no brexit.

His delivery has been so flat over the last few days I dunno if he has throat problems or what, but he's been more uninspiring than usual.

 

[Shinjch]

the no deal debate today and vote is basically to see if they can have control of the order paper (presumably tomorrow) to actually debate extending and voting on that extension (request) to A50

Presuming they pass the bill today what happens if Boris was to call for a GE vote (or a vote of confidence in his government) tomorrow would that come before or after the bill to extend A50 - and who gets to choose that (the speaker or is it pre-determined what has precident?)

Don't think he can call a GE due to the fixed parliament act. He needs two thirds of MPs to vote for one.

 

[sammsky1]

the no deal debate today and vote is basically to see if they can have control of the order paper (presumably tomorrow) to actually debate extending and voting on that extension (request) to A50

Presuming they pass the bill today what happens if Boris was to call for a GE vote (or a vote of confidence in his government) tomorrow would that come before or after the bill to extend A50 - and who gets to choose that (the speaker or is it pre-determined what has precident?)

Interesting and pertinent question! Surely it would be the bill, as that was proposed first?

 

[DOTA]

In the actual deal being negotiated, what are the remaining sticking points and parameters for possible negotiation? Have we agreed to say of it?

I don't think there is any desire to negotiate from either side. But this government and the EU both have to pretend they want to cause no one wants the blame for no deal.

 

[DOTA]

Don't think he can call a GE due to the fixed parliament act. He needs two thirds of MPs to vote for one.

Technically there isn't a reason he can't call a vote of no confidence... in himself. That doesn't need two thirds.

 

[Fergies Gum]

His delivery has been so flat over the last few days I dunno if he has throat problems or what, but he's been more uninspiring than usual.

Its kind of an open secret in Westminster that he's had health issues.

 

[sun_tzu]

Don't think he can call a GE due to the fixed parliament act. He needs two thirds of MPs to vote for one.

n but he can call for the vote to have one - which is what i meant - as others have affirmed he can also call a no confidence motion
Im just wondering what takes precident - the action to extend A50, calling for an election under fixed term parliament or vote of confidence
and who decides

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Looking forward to Corbyn ramming it down the throats of those who think he's done again. But to be honest who would want to be in charge ,especially if there is a no brexit.

Last time May and Corbyn remarkably managed to pretend Brexit wasn't happening but it will be a single issue election this time. Promising to nationalise everybody's grandmother and to give everyone a few more bank holidays isn't going to cut it this time. There will be no hiding for him.

 

[sun_tzu]

Interesting and pertinent question! Surely it would be the bill, as that was proposed first?

I dont know I thought a vote of confidence came ahead of any other business that was planned - I wasnt sure about a GE vote under fixed term parliament
i wondered if his only way to potentially avoid the extension would be to try to call a confidence motion in himself (wednesday)
if he survived that (so that the remain group can pass the extension legislation) I presumed the extension bill would be thursday
and then he could prorouge parliament from monday - but could labour then call a vote of no confidence once they had passed the extension bill (on monday) ...

and what happens if boris looses the confidence motion but there is then the 14 days for somebody else to show they have a majority - even though the house is supposedly pro-rouged and no business can carry over from the old sitting to the next - so does he just come back in october as PM again?

genuinley so many moving parts to this its hard to know where it will go over the next few days

 

[Jippy]

Its kind of an open secret in Westminster that he's had health issues.

I know there was a bit of a hoohah about that recently, but his voice is so low and raspy, it has been very noticeable. You'd have thought he'd have been hurling fire and brimstone about Johnson's actions, but it's not been like that at all.

 

[esmufc07]

Oh look it's Tom Harwood again

 

[sun_tzu]

I know there was a bit of a hoohah about that recently, but his voice is so low and raspy, it has been very noticeable. You'd have thought he'd have been hurling fire and brimstone about Johnson's actions, but it's not been like that at all.

perhaps he is saving himself for an amazing pmq's tomorrow?

i mean those health stories clearly have no truth

Jeremy and the labour party said they were lies

In a statement, the Labour Party said: "These Times stories are a series of false, fabricated and absurd allegations hiding behind anonymous sources with a transparently political agenda.

"For any senior civil servant to falsely claim the leader of the opposition is ill, frail or forgetful, is a disgrace and a clear political intervention. In a democracy, the people decide who is prime minister.

"The claim that Jeremy Corbyn is ill, frail or forgetful is entirely false, and clearly part of a deliberate misinformation campaign. Jeremy is in good health, runs and cycles regularly, and has an excellent memory."

and hes all about straight talking honest politics so if he had health issues he would clearly make sure the public were well informed about that in case of a snap general election

 

[WensleyMU]

What is your point here?

That the vast majority of EU citizens are white, just as the majority of Brits, are white. So the vast majority of EU migrants are also white.

The average racist is far more likely to have an issue with non EU migration, something which is likely to rise post brexit. If they wanted to see less non whites, they should have voted to remain.

 

[Jacko21]

Oh look it's Tom Harwood again

Have he and Owen Jones ever been interviewed together?

That'd be fun.

 

[Smores]

I know there was a bit of a hoohah about that recently, but his voice is so low and raspy, it has been very noticeable. You'd have thought he'd have been hurling fire and brimstone about Johnson's actions, but it's not been like that at all.

I know the BBC and Channel 4 decided Scotland didn't exist but he was at the Glasgow rally at the weekend and he sounded fine.

 

[Buster15]

Corbyn is meek and uninteresting. He's a charisma vacuum. He leaves very little impression on the average voter that only engages with politics on a surface level.

Got to agree with you on that one. He is bland and weak and unfortunately unelectable. And I say that as a Labour voter.

 

[Smores]

Putting a new leader into this Labour party might help a bit but it's lipstick on a pig, frankly. People don't seem to trust or like Labour very much and that's about policies as much as leadership.

Also this idea that it's the media's fault... it's really not. It's Labour's.

The feck you on about, its very well publicised that Labour policies polled very well at the last election. I think you're going off your own opinion rather than reality

 

[Hammerfell]

Christ, Nigel Dodds is a hideous creature.

 

[sammsky1]

 

[Jippy]

That the vast majority of EU citizens are white, just as the majority of Brits, are white. So the vast majority of EU migrants are also white.

The average racist is far more likely to have an issue with non EU migration, something which is likely to rise post brexit. If they wanted to see less non whites, they should have voted to remain.

Well yeah, but they are too stupid to realise that.
It seems more the imperialist bilge anyway and the perception of us having to kowtow to Europe, despite WWII.

I know the BBC and Channel 4 decided Scotland didn't exist but he was at the Glasgow rally at the weekend and he sounded fine.

That's actually good to hear- he didn't sound good being interviewed on C4 news the last couple of days.

 

[Buster15]

The capitalist media have done an absolutely excellent job of destroying Corbyn and his credibility. One of the best cases of character assassination I've ever seen in politics. It's also a sad state of affairs for the intelligence of the British electorate that Boris has any credibility as an MP, let alone PM.

Absolutely right although he isn't terribly charismatic or interesting.
I have stopped buying newspapers many years ago. Full of lies and made up stories. I have far better things to spend my money on.
Let's face it. Nowadays we are bombarded with so called fake news. Or to put it more correctly lies and bullshit.
I detest the way that the capitalist media chooses to manipulate people's thinking.
If you have read George Orwell 1984 you will understand how easily this is done and more importantly the consequences.

 

[sammsky1]

I don't think there is any desire to negotiate from either side. But this government and the EU both have to pretend they want to cause no one wants the blame for no deal.

I dont know I thought a vote of confidence came ahead of any other business that was planned - I wasnt sure about a GE vote under fixed term parliament
i wondered if his only way to potentially avoid the extension would be to try to call a confidence motion in himself (wednesday)
if he survived that (so that the remain group can pass the extension legislation) I presumed the extension bill would be thursday
and then he could prorouge parliament from monday - but could labour then call a vote of no confidence once they had passed the extension bill (on monday) ...

and what happens if boris looses the confidence motion but there is then the 14 days for somebody else to show they have a majority - even though the house is supposedly pro-rouged and no business can carry over from the old sitting to the next - so does he just come back in october as PM again?

genuinley so many moving parts to this its hard to know where it will go over the next few days

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/en...-alliance-meeting_uk_5d6e650ae4b09bbc9ef4cba8



Many have said for days that this is all part of a BJ bluff (including yourself I think?), which is now being flushed out and will also be exposed to the nation in the debate tonight?

is this strategic or incompetence? What is Cummings end game here?

 

[sun_tzu]

Many have said for days that this is all part of a BJ bluff (including yourself I think?). This is now being flushed out, and will also be exposed to the nation in the debate tonight?

is this strategic or incompetence? What is Cummings end game here?

I thik its to boill down the impending election to
leave vs remain
and finding a way to get brexit party into bed with them whist hoping cant get their act together and the remain vote is split over several parties
he will say the eu wont negotiate because of the remoaner mps blocking the will of the people
I think the last 2 parts in the puzzle is
1. getting the brexit party on board (probably by deselecting rebel mp's and making no deal a manifesto pledge)
2. getting the ge on terms they want (date as close to brexit as possible) - this may be a little trickier unless labour side with the vote to call a GE

 

[Jacko21]

Many have said for days that this is all part of a BJ bluff (including yourself I think?), which is now being flushed out and will also be exposed to the nation in the debate tonight?

is this strategic or incompetence? What is Cummings end game here?

Wondering this myself. This will have all been war-gamed, but the mechanics don't look convincing.

 

[WensleyMU]

Absolutely right although he isn't terribly charismatic or interesting.
I have stopped buying newspapers many years ago. Full of lies and made up stories. I have far better things to spend my money on.
Let's face it. Nowadays we are bombarded with so called fake news. Or to put it more correctly lies and bullshit.
I detest the way that the capitalist media chooses to manipulate people's thinking.
If you have read George Orwell 1984 you will understand how easily this is done and more importantly the consequences.

To be fair Buster, the press will attack just about anyone in politics. Cameron was a pig fecker, May a weirdo running through fields of wheat. Both as well as Boris have murdered millions of brits and are monsters according to various elements of the press. They feed on the publics desire for blood, just as they do with sports coverage. Its all designed to rile people up. Those for and against. Put simply, it sells.

Each mainstream paper has its favoured party and politicians who get an easier ride from them, but they all have their enemies, the bad guy as far as they are concerned.

 

[sammsky1]

I thik its to boill down the impending election to
leave vs remain
and finding a way to get brexit party into bed with them whist hoping cant get their act together and the remain vote is split over several parties
he will say the eu wont negotiate because of the remoaner mps blocking the will of the people
I think the last 2 parts in the puzzle is
1. getting the brexit party on board (probably by deselecting rebel mp's and making no deal a manifesto pledge)
2. getting the ge on terms they want (date as close to brexit as possible) - this may be a little trickier unless labour side with the vote to call a GE

Wondering this myself. This will have all been war-gamed, but the mechanics don't look convincing.

That assumes that deselected Tory MPs all belong to safe majority leave constituencies? Would massively backfire if they are marginal Brexit referendum constituencies, as I think many will vote to remain now. Though presumably Cummings has accounted for this in his electoral math?

I would imagine that most voters will put country above party in a BrExit specific GE; so it would effectively become a new referendum. In that vote, I think Remain wins,