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Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?


  • Total voters
    194
  • Poll closed .
I wouldn´t focus too much on the size of the economies. Yes, the EU is bigger, but the UK is a very strong economy. Size alone also doesn´t determine bargaining power. Both sides understand the benefits of free trade, market access and cooperation. When one side tries to outdo the other, both will lose. Trade negotiations are not a zero-sum game. Better cooperation means more gains for both parties. In contrast, there are various smaller EMEs that are more skeptical of free trade and they deny developed economies like the USA/EU free access to their markets. In the end the USA/EU can do little about that, despite having considerably stronger economies.

The issue that matters is the structure of the economy and the influence of different actors on politics in each country. The EU have an advantage, but it doesn´t really come from its size alone, but from the interests of the major industries in each country.

If free trade is always better they wouldn't take years to negotiate, fact is each nation have their own industries and people at home to protect from unfair competition.

It'd be great for the UK to have free access but without the regulatory obligations, it'd hand us a massive competitive advantage, the EU aren't stupid and aren't going to do that.

Europe can provide all its needs on its own, the UK cant, we want access so we'll play by their rules
 
Yes. That is correct. The EU will never grant the UK access to the complete single market without the UK accepting the whole package (including free movement of labor). If your government really tries to go down this way in negotiations, they´d just waste time. They´d be buffoons. Boris might be one, but Davis doesn´t strike me as being stupid.
That doesn´t mean that there can´t be some kind of decent deal for both sides. Mifid(II) regulations can be extended to non-member states and it is possible for (parts) of the UK financial sector to get full access to the single market (that includes complying with all the regulations in this sector), while other sectors don´t enjoy the same treatment. The UK must certainly offer a couple of things in return, but I wouldn´t rule it out.

Personally I think that the UK will just stay in the single market (which makes the whole Brexit campaign a bit pointless), but it is not the only reasonable outcome for the UK.

I´d also add, that continental European businesses (at least to my understanding) – including the finance sector – don´t really want to see London being ruined. Especially Frankfurt sees itself as complementary to London. The whole “lets relocate all the businesses from London to the continent, so we create jobs in our countries” vision is primarily a political one.
 
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Because my knowledge of trade deals was nil I decided to read about them. There seems to be a lot of disadvantages aswell as gains with these deals, So why are they so important?
 
I dont think any EU citizens will be affected. If you have a Job offer then go for it. I fully expect hiring to pick up towards the end of the year and pound to stablilize around its long term average of 1.23 to 1.27 to €.

I don't have one, but I have good experience and a Master's degree so it shouldn't be a problem in that sense. I also have an NI card and a bank account.
 
I was following the discussion the last few days and like to add a few things.

First of all it is important to understand the differences between a FTA/PTA (free trade agreement/preferential trade agreement) and the European single market.

FTA: FTAs reduce or abolish trade barriers. The most common trade barriers are tariffs and export subsidies (“tariff barriers”) or quotas, subsidies, special taxes, special regulation, VERs et al. (non-tariff barriers). Most FTAs don’t abolish all trade barriers and are not perfect. Still reducing tariff barriers is fairly easy nowadays and most countries in the world move in this direction.

Unified Single market: A single market includes all the benefits of a free trade area and adds various other things. I won´t list all of them, just the most relevant ones.
1) common external tariff
2) => common trade policy
3) If a good is approved in one country it is automatically approved in all countries.
4) => Freedom of goods, services, capital and labour

Creating a single market is very difficult, because different countries have to accept the harmonization of regulation and standards (or #3 is impossible). Furthermore they have to agree on a common trade policy with other countries (or #1 is impossible) Other attempts to establish common markets (ASEAN, Mercosur, CDME, SICA) are highly imperfect and really nothing like the European single market.

A practical example to illustrate the issue: If you produce a baby toy in the USA, you have to comply with all restrictions and regulations of the USA (e.g. packaging, information, health standards, labour standards) to access their domestic market. If you want to access the European market as well, you have to do the same thing again just with slightly different regulations and standards, that are set by the EU/the national countries. Depending on your good/service, this process can create a lot of additional costs (e.g. medicine).

It is absolutely amazing and extraordinary, that the EU was able to create that single market. I am not big fan of the EU, but this aspect is fantastic.

The free trade policy of the EU:

Many pro-Brexit advocates seem to argue that a common European trade policy is a problem for England. It is true, that the UK can´t negotiate their own FTAs with foreign countries, but I don´t really see the problem.

The EU is actually pretty good at reducing tariff barriers with other countries. It is not perfect, but there are only few countries in the world that are actually better than the EU in this regard. The EU is sometimes seen as fortress towards the rest of the world, but that has little to do with “classic” protectionism. That is almost exclusively down to the very high level of standards and regulation. Now I am a fairly extreme liberal, so I´d agree that the EU is regulating too much stuff. Still, even I acknowledge that any developed country has to set standards and while the EU might overdo it in many ways, it is more of a structural problem and has less to do with the EU. Other developed countries have more or less the same problem.

So if you argue, that leaving the EU allows England to negotiate substantially better trade deals (or substantially different trade deals), you have to hold fairly radical views. Either you are in favor of strong protectionism or you have to fancy the radical reduction of regulation and standards; abolishing most labour standards; abolishing environmental standards; reducing health and risk regulations et.al. Some Tory politicians might fancy such a course (and I personally like at least some of these ideas), but I doubt that most pro-brexit voters would actually support such policy. Just changing tariff barriers will make little to no difference, because they are simply not the biggest barriers anymore (with few exceptions) for imports into the EU.

Furthermore many developing countries close their markets to developed countries. That is actually a big problem, but leaving the EU won´t solve that. To the contrary it will put England in a much weaker position. In comparison: The EU is better in securing access to foreign markets than the USA.

So I´d really like to understand the benefit of leaving the EU in this context. Can anyone explain in detail, what they don´t like about European free trade deals and how that would improve by leaving the EU? You might find a few issues here and there, but they´ll never compensate for all the disadvantages.

Bargaining position between the EU and GB:

It is quite simply. The EU is in a much stronger position and their relative share of trade with the UK is smaller than the other way around). Talking about absolute numbers makes no sense in this context.

Still size isn´t not the only issue. Trading goods between equally developed economies is not a big problem even without specific agreements. It is not a big problem for BMW to sell cars in countries outside the single market, because their standards (due to the high regulations in the EU) will conform to foreign standards anyway. The additional costs will be fairly small compared to the price of their product. That´s why the prospect of trading goods on the basis of WTO rules is not a particularly scary prospect for most industries: Sure they would like to save as much money as possible, but it will only damage very few sectors substantially. One of the few exceptions would be the pharma-industry, but to my knowledge is the UK huge net-exporter in this sector…..

All of that is different when it comes to services. Regulation is more complicated and the WTO rules are far less helpful. That affects especially highly regulated sectors like banking/finance. At the moment the UK is trying to limit the (misguided) regulations of the finance sector in the EU at least to some extend and the benefit is, that it stays globally competitive, while having access to its most important market. Dropping out of the EU will result in stronger regulations in the EU and UK-finance/banking sector will only be able to access this market, if they comply with huge parts of these regulations. That is a pretty scary prospect for the UK and gives the EU much bigger bargaining power.

What is going to happen in trade negotiations, when the UK drops out?

No side will have any interest in introducing high tariffs, because it would be a lose-lose situation. So agreeing on a fairly comprehensive FTA, that abolishes most trade barriers should be fairly easy and the EU will be happy with such an agreement. That said, the EU has absolutely no incentive to agree to give GB access to the single market without the GB accepting its rules – including free movement of people.

In the end the UK has to decide what their priorities are: access to the single market (to help their industry), but with the concession of agreeing to most of the regulations and free movement or dropping out of the single market and sticking to a FTA.

I´d take any bet that the EU won´t make any substantial compromises when it comes to access to the single market.

A few additional thoughts:

Brexit is not the end of the world, but fairly pointless without a vision/plan of what is going to come next. The whole campaign was really a low-point when it comes to democracy. Politicians acted moronic and big parts of the population just confirmed that they are clueless. Brexit voters will have a rude awakening when they realize that their decision won´t cause the political change that they wanted.

The aftermath of the whole referendum is even more embarrassing. Delaying to trigger §50 is incredibly irresponsible. Uncertainty is what hurts any economy. The referendum happened and now British politicians have to “rip of the Band-Aid”. Dragging out the current situation for years will massively hurt the British economy (and to a slightly lesser extend the European one). There are already news all over the place, that companies delay their investment. That should worry people.

On the other side, looking at currency exchange rates or stock markets is fairly pointless. Those things are not good indicators of economic development anymore and can drop/soar regardless of fundamentals.
Great post.
 
I was planning a move to the UK in April, now I'm having second thoughts as a lot of companies will be hesitant to hire an EU citizen due to the uncertainty that Brexit brings, any advice? Should I do it and see what happens? A part of me feels that Swedish citizens won't really be affected.
come if you want to come, companys wont care where your from cos know one with a brain thinks anyone will be deported, as the mine field of deporting one person is enough trouble, deporting a 1000 to a variety of country's would take years of man hours and is basically impossible, and deporting millions of people is frankly laughable.

but be aware jobs are like gold dust right now..... well to be honest have been for the past ten years thats one of the reasons their is so much hate and bitterness in the country at the mo.

so yeah come if you want it wont make any difference your from Sweden.
 
Yes. That is correct. The EU will never grant the UK access to the complete single market without the UK accepting the whole package (including free movement of labor). If your government really tries to go down this way in negotiations, they´d just waste time. They´d be buffoons. Boris might be one, but Davis doesn´t strike me as being stupid.
That doesn´t mean that there can´t be some kind of decent deal for both sides. Mifid(II) regulations can be extended to non-member states and it is possible for (parts) of the UK financial sector to get full access to the single market (that includes complying with all the regulations in this sector), while other sectors don´t enjoy the same treatment. The UK must certainly offer a couple of things in return, but I wouldn´t rule it out.

Personally I think that the UK will just stay in the single market (which makes the whole Brexit campaign a bit pointless), but it is not the only reasonable outcome for the UK.

I´d also add, that continental European businesses (at least to my understanding) – including the finance sector – don´t really want to see London being ruined. Especially Frankfurt sees itself as complementary to London. The whole “lets relocate all the businesses from London to the continent, so we create jobs in our countries” vision is primarily political one.
There are hopes that Mifid II will allow passporting, but it's not clear yet. Given it's implementation was recently put back to January 2018, there are concerns that there could be further delays, particularly as a few of the technical standards haven't been finalised yet.
It could be a really helpful get-out clause though, fingers crossed.
 
Yes. That is correct. The EU will never grant the UK access to the complete single market without the UK accepting the whole package (including free movement of labor). If your government really tries to go down this way in negotiations, they´d just waste time.

Not a big deal, as tariffs are already low with the trade of goods. We have to remember that all other non european countries do not have access to the single market.

They´d be buffoons. Boris might be one, but Davis doesn´t strike me as being stupid. That doesn´t mean that there can´t be some kind of decent deal for both sides. Mifid(II) regulations can be extended to non-member states and it is possible for (parts) of the UK financial sector to get full access to the single market (that includes complying with all the regulations in this sector), while other sectors don´t enjoy the same treatment. The UK must certainly offer a couple of things in return, but I wouldn´t rule it out.

Personally I think that the UK will just stay in the single market (which makes the whole Brexit campaign a bit pointless), but it is not the only reasonable outcome for the UK.

Control of borders will be a red line, and if the EU demands free movement in order to access the single market, the UK will leave the single market. Theresa May already wanted tighter control of immigration, but failed as a result of Britain being an EU member. Brexit gives her the added weight of the nation behind her. It is highly likely that Germany and France (the power of the EU) will cave in to the demands of the UK, otherwise their economies will be badly hit, not to mention having to uphold the other nations falling into bankruptcy. The EU will use the big corporate banks and big businesses to try and bully the British government into submission, but if Parliament stands strong, the EU will have to either reform or disintegrate.

I´d also add, that continental European businesses (at least to my understanding) – including the finance sector – don´t really want to see London being ruined. Especially Frankfurt sees itself as complementary to London. The whole “lets relocate all the businesses from London to the continent, so we create jobs in our countries” vision is primarily political one.

It is the ultimate gamble. Does the EU collapse the whole of europe in order to hang onto the United States of Europe dream, or do they go back to the drawing board and decide to reform, and watch decades of hard work (relieving countries of their sovereign power) go down the drain?
 
There are hopes that Mifid II will allow passporting, but it's not clear yet. Given it's implementation was recently put back to January 2018, there are concerns that there could be further delays, particularly as a few of the technical standards haven't been finalised yet.
It could be a really helpful get-out clause though, fingers crossed.

Do you know by any chance in detail which issues are still up for debate? I thought that it is a done deal and the delay is "just" to give market participants and ESMA more time to implement the changes.
 
Do you know by any chance in detail which issues are still up for debate? I thought that it is a done deal and the delay is "just" to give market participants and ESMA more time to implement the changes.
I can't quite remember tbh- think it was certain technical finer tuning points. Let me have a dig. Agreed, that the overriding reason was to provide more time for implementation.
 
Not a big deal, as tariffs are already low with the trade of goods. We have to remember that all other non european countries do not have access to the single market.

It's not the trade of goods thats matter, we are a service based economy and without single market access for them we will struggle
 
As I said, there are no tariffs on trade of services yet. There may be in the future, and maybe near future seeing as about 60-80% of UK export trade involves services.
The thing is, if the EU is looking to kneecap us for exiting, it tells us that we shouldn't be involved with these people in the first place.
Tariffs don't exist on services. It's regulation.

For example, financial passports allow UK-based banks to provide financial services to people and companies in the EU. UK banks would need to pay a fee or relocate to the EU to continue. And the UK would have no say in the regulations the EU would employ.
 
Tariffs don't exist on services. It's regulation.

For example, financial passports allow UK-based banks to provide financial services to people and companies in the EU. UK banks would need to pay a fee or relocate to the EU to continue. And the UK would have no say in the regulations the EU would employ.
We're going over old ground, but yep, the asset managers are moving additional compliance and managerial staff over to Dublin or Lux to prove 'oversight' for the Oeic/Sicav ranges, to meet regulatory requirements. The banks are outside of my remit.
 
As I said, there are no tariffs on trade of services yet. There may be in the future, and maybe near future seeing as about 60-80% of UK export trade involves services.
The thing is, if the EU is looking to kneecap us for exiting, it tells us that we shouldn't be involved with these people in the first place.

it is not about tariffs, but about access. No side is going to slap huge tariffs on anything. That would be crazy and against WTO laws. The problem for the financial sector is, that British financial institutes might not be allowed to sell some of their stuff in Europe. The problem for the pharmacy industry might be that they need to go through different very costly and long approval procedures. One for the British market and one for the European single market.
I little sympathy for the leading figures in the EU (Junker, Schulz et.al), but they are (hopefully) not that stupid and act vindictively. You might not like it, but it is totally reasonable, that they don´t allow Britain to enter the single market when your government is unwilling to comply with the (mostly) reasonable conditions.

All very good but why does it have to include other conditions with the eu?

Why if i look up the cons of a trade deal do all results point to loss of jobs?

labour, capital, goods and services should all be part of the same market. It makes economically sense. Yes, some people lose (and politics should do something about that), but overall the economies benefit from it. The problem of losing jobs has little to do with free trade, but with technological advancements. It is a interesting topic, that needs to be addressed as well, but protectionism won´t solve it.
 
As I said, there are no tariffs on trade of services yet. There may be in the future, and maybe near future seeing as about 60-80% of UK export trade involves services.
The thing is, if the EU is looking to kneecap us for exiting, it tells us that we shouldn't be involved with these people in the first place.
Its not just about the tariffs for financial services. The europe focused services need to be a "part of the common market" rather than "have access to it".

As soon as we exit the UK regulators (BoE, PRA, FCA) will no longer be one of the EU regulatory bodies and firms currently operating under their supervision will no longer be automatically compliant. They will now have to get regulatory approvals in each country they do business in. The other option would be to move domicile to the regulatory regime of one of the 27 remaining countries to become automatically compliant again. Given the costs/time involved in the forst options, companies will chose the later one i.e. move.

If we went down this route it would be a clusterfeck for the financial services business. My guess is about a quarter (I am tempted to say even higher but I doubt that other EU financial centres can cope with any more) of jobs/companies will move to either Dublin, Amsterdam or Zurich.

Though I highly doubt that we will end up in that situation. We will likely push for a hybrid of the Norway/Swiss deal where we have the benefits of Norway but obligations of Switzerland. I think we can get such a deal and in the end no more than 5% movement will happen.
 
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I find it quite ironic that a country would want full unrestricted access to the single market and then it also want to close the door to its people. Its like we don't want you but we want the money generated by you.

I doubt the EU will accept that. It will be its end if it does. The EU will reform itself but I doubt it will do it in the way the UK will like (there's already talks of prioritising on an EU army) and will use the crisis in the UK as an example why countries should stick and integrate more with one another
 
I doubt the EU will accept that. It will be its end if it does. The EU will reform itself but I doubt it will do it in the way the UK will like (there's already talks of prioritising on an EU army) and will use the crisis in the UK as an example why countries should stick and integrate more with one another

What crisis?
 
The crisis which will occur once its evident that the UK is struggling to arrange a deal to retain full access to the single market.
Doesn't matter anymore. We are already in trade talks with China, Japan, Australia, India and Brazil, next week we're meeting with the USA and it's believed we will have a trade deal with the USA before the EU. Have to remember a lot of scare tactics were used to forecast how being outside or not having access to the single market would destroy us. Thing is, the UK can now get trade deals done much quicker.
 
Doesn't matter anymore. We are already in trade talks with China, Japan, Australia, India and Brazil, next week we're meeting with the USA and it's believed we will have a trade deal with the USA before the EU. Have to remember a lot of scare tactics were used to forecast how being outside or not having access to the single market would destroy us. Thing is, the UK can now get trade deals done much quicker.

Then we expect the UK to finally activate article 50 asap and not attempt to access the single market am I right? It would be interesting to see what type of deals goliaths like the US and China will offer to a small market like the UK especially considering how desperate the uk is for such trade deals. There again these countries may not have the experience of negotiating trade deals (they may loan some negotiators from the uk while at it) that the UK has. Who needs experts when you have Boris?
 
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Then we expect the UK to finally activate article 50 asap and not attempt to access the single market am I right? It would be interesting to see what type of deals goliaths like the US and China will offer to a small market like the UK especially considering how desperate the uk is for such trade deals. There again these countries may not have the experience of negotiating trade deals (they may loan some negotiators from the uk while at it) that the UK has. Who needs experts when you have Boris?
Boris is just the figure head, the people doing the trade deals are numerous. Also we're the worlds fifth largest economy. That was a position we got regardless of the EU. Just over a hundred years ago we were the number 1. We have an individual market of 60 million, which isn't small change and the huge difference is we can do the deals quickly without having to ratify it past 26 other members. We have plenty of experts on board and even though Johnson is a bit of a tit, he's not an idiot. There will be trade deals to come in immediately once article 50 is fulfilled. The UK will be fine. I'm more concerned for the EU. We may have to come to a deal where we still give you the 350million a week to help prop up the Euro.
 
Boris is just the figure head, the people doing the trade deals are numerous. Also we're the worlds fifth largest economy. That was a position we got regardless of the EU. Just over a hundred years ago we were the number 1. We have an individual market of 60 million, which isn't small change and the huge difference is we can do the deals quickly without having to ratify it past 26 other members. We have plenty of experts on board and even though Johnson is a bit of a tit, he's not an idiot. There will be trade deals to come in immediately once article 50 is fulfilled. The UK will be fine. I'm more concerned for the EU. We may have to come to a deal where we still give you the 350million a week to help prop up the Euro.

I think you are referring to the foreign people you would be hiring to do the deals on your behalf because you lack expertise. These will be lead by a foreign minister who got duped by a friend and had insulted most of the people you would want to deal with. However who needs experts (most of whom told you to remain in the eu) when you got the likes of Boris and the other quitter farage?

The UK is a small market who is risking of losing access to one of the biggest markets in the world and will be desperate to sign trade deals to compensate. It will be interesting to see if bigger countries lead by the maniac nurse , the nazi etc will exploit such desperation. Boris comments will surely refresh memories to India, the commonwealth countries and the Chinese who still remember fondly of how nice Britain was when it was still a super power and will surely provide them with a great trade deal to back them up

Those 350m + freedom of movement will be retained once you decide to enter the eaa market. Surely you won't risk losing the financial services to Dublin or Paris won't you?

PS: the EU is not actually me. I am a commonwealth citizen as well as an EU citizen and my grandparents were awarded the George Cross. You can see that on our flag. I also work and pay my taxes in the UK so if you get the hit I will be hurt too. Having said that if shit hits fan or xenophobia keep increasing in the UK I will return to my home country. We got a decent standard of living there with a lower unemployment rate then the UK
 
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Boris is just the figure head, the people doing the trade deals are numerous. Also we're the worlds fifth largest economy. That was a position we got regardless of the EU. Just over a hundred years ago we were the number 1. We have an individual market of 60 million, which isn't small change and the huge difference is we can do the deals quickly without having to ratify it past 26 other members. We have plenty of experts on board and even though Johnson is a bit of a tit, he's not an idiot. There will be trade deals to come in immediately once article 50 is fulfilled. The UK will be fine. I'm more concerned for the EU. We may have to come to a deal where we still give you the 350million a week to help prop up the Euro.
Andrea kept repeating that too! Why does it matter so much? How significant is that ranking going to be in Brexit negotiations? Will the UK even have that position by end of year?
 
Andrea kept repeating that too! Why does it matter so much? How significant is that ranking going to be in Brexit negotiations? Will the UK even have that position by end of year?

You know nothing John Snow because you're not a mother. Seriously these are the sort of statesmen/women the UK will rely on to get out of these mess. People who couldn't even bother to plan an exit plan prior the referendum.
 
it is not about tariffs, but about access. No side is going to slap huge tariffs on anything. That would be crazy and against WTO laws. The problem for the financial sector is, that British financial institutes might not be allowed to sell some of their stuff in Europe. The problem for the pharmacy industry might be that they need to go through different very costly and long approval procedures. One for the British market and one for the European single market.
I little sympathy for the leading figures in the EU (Junker, Schulz et.al), but they are (hopefully) not that stupid and act vindictively. You might not like it, but it is totally reasonable, that they don´t allow Britain to enter the single market when your government is unwilling to comply with the (mostly) reasonable conditions.



labour, capital, goods and services should all be part of the same market. It makes economically sense. Yes, some people lose (and politics should do something about that), but overall the economies benefit from it. The problem of losing jobs has little to do with free trade, but with technological advancements. It is a interesting topic, that needs to be addressed as well, but protectionism won´t solve it.
Isnt it the less well off that lose? They always do while big business wins.

Isnt that also the reason why the nafta is unpopular with some?

And why doesn't the nafta include freedom of movement
 
Doesn't matter anymore. We are already in trade talks with China, Japan, Australia, India and Brazil, next week we're meeting with the USA and it's believed we will have a trade deal with the USA before the EU. Have to remember a lot of scare tactics were used to forecast how being outside or not having access to the single market would destroy us. Thing is, the UK can now get trade deals done much quicker.

I thought you leavers had a problem with TTIP? Suddenly a deal with the US is welcome?

I'm sure we'll get trade deals with other nations, all of them could have been agreed whilst part of the EU, we've done them before

Quick trade deals will make bad trade deals, I am certain the Tories will sacrifice the protections the working class have as part of the EU to make any deal which they stick in a press release
 
I thought you leavers had a problem with TTIP? Suddenly a deal with the US is welcome?

I'm sure we'll get trade deals with other nations, all of them could have been agreed whilst part of the EU, we've done them before

Quick trade deals will make bad trade deals, I am certain the Tories will sacrifice the protections the working class have as part of the EU to make any deal which they stick in a press release
right now the working class are been kicked and hit so hard and for so long, their is hardly any protections left to sacrifice.
 
I thought you leavers had a problem with TTIP? Suddenly a deal with the US is welcome?

I'm sure we'll get trade deals with other nations, all of them could have been agreed whilst part of the EU, we've done them before

Quick trade deals will make bad trade deals, I am certain the Tories will sacrifice the protections the working class have as part of the EU to make any deal which they stick in a press release
Who said I was a leaver or voted to leave? I hate this labelling of people and I wish everyone would ( especially on the internet) enact their right to keep their vote private and stop playing a blame game. That way it stops this posting your flag to pole and the rest are enemies. I will say this. I was shocked and upset on that Friday morning but I will keep the way I voted to myself as there is an argument on both sides ( a lot that wasn't covered on the television and I was disgusted by how the media, politicians and individuals on the internet behaved on both sides) That debate is over now.

We're now in the reality of the situation we are in and have to work towards a common goal. I am still British, I am still European, I am still a global citizen.

TTIP is a vastly different deal and one that should be rejected on both sides of the Atlantic. The fact it's mandate has been kept secret from the populations of both and the way it was being forced upon people in the move towards enforced globalisation was and is wrong. The deal with the USA would be a very different creature than TTIP

The working classes in the UK especially in those areas outside of the big UK cities have seen their local economies crushed, factories move away to Europe on the back of EU grants and they've seen no difference in their living standards despite who's been in power or whether the economy is doing good or bad. The NHS is fecked either way unless Corbyn somehow survives and gets into power, if he doesn't we'll see the further privatisation of it's services ( and yes a lot of it is privatised now but the companies involved are allowed to use the branding of the NHS, so when you walk into that NHS centre that was built 10 years ago, it probably should have Virgin branding all over it ) until the point of total collapse and a fully privatised service comes in.

My current big fear is the collapse of the Euro over whether the UK will prosper post Brexit.
 
right now the working class are been kicked and hit so hard and for so long, their is hardly any protections left to sacrifice.

You haven't seen anything yet. The US or China level of protection is far worse than those in the uk
 
Who said I was a leaver or voted to leave? I hate this labelling of people and I wish everyone would ( especially on the internet) enact their right to keep their vote private and stop playing a blame game. That way it stops this posting your flag to pole and the rest are enemies. I will say this. I was shocked and upset on that Friday morning but I will keep the way I voted to myself as there is an argument on both sides ( a lot that wasn't covered on the television and I was disgusted by how the media, politicians and individuals on the internet behaved on both sides) That debate is over now.

We're now in the reality of the situation we are in and have to work towards a common goal. I am still British, I am still European, I am still a global citizen.

TTIP is a vastly different deal and one that should be rejected on both sides of the Atlantic. The fact it's mandate has been kept secret from the populations of both and the way it was being forced upon people in the move towards enforced globalisation was and is wrong. The deal with the USA would be a very different creature than TTIP

The working classes in the UK especially in those areas outside of the big UK cities have seen their local economies crushed, factories move away to Europe on the back of EU grants and they've seen no difference in their living standards despite who's been in power or whether the economy is doing good or bad. The NHS is fecked either way unless Corbyn somehow survives and gets into power, if he doesn't we'll see the further privatisation of it's services ( and yes a lot of it is privatised now but the companies involved are allowed to use the branding of the NHS, so when you walk into that NHS centre that was built 10 years ago, it probably should have Virgin branding all over it ) until the point of total collapse and a fully privatised service comes in.

My current big fear is the collapse of the Euro over whether the UK will prosper post Brexit.

Good luck applying to visas mate. Don't worry though. Brexit champions like farage will still benefit from pensions from brussels and unrestricted freedom of movement if needed. It's the pleb that will suffer if shit hits fan

Also why would the US agree to give better terms to you as opposed to a much bigger and richer market? (Ie the eu) whose not desperate for a trade deal as u are?
 
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Isnt it the less well off that lose? They always do while big business wins.

Isnt that also the reason why the nafta is unpopular with some?

And why doesn't the nafta include freedom of movement

Part of the mid-lower working class in developed countries is - relatively speaking - losing, but it is a fallacy to assume, that only big business/super rich win and it has little to do with free trade.

This chart from a study by Brank Milanovic made some headlines. The US lower middle class (~industrial worker) are around 80-82%. European "classic industrial workers" must be around there, too. So they are not able to participate on global growth like other income groups can. You have to take these statistics with a pinch of salt, but generally speaking this development corresponds with my experience/observations.

laknerfig1_2.png



So I am not saying that there isn´t a very real problem. It just doesn´t have anything to do with free-trade. People often blame the wrong things. So yes, various free-trade agreements are fairly unpopular with the working class, but thats because most people don´t really understand these trends. Without free trade, the average person in Europe/the EU would be worse off. By a lot.


NAFTA doesn´t include free movement, because it didn´t create a single market. NAFTA is a fairly comprehensive free trade agreement, that creates a free-trade area. Mexico, the USA and Canada have all their own regulatory laws. There is no supra-national structure that creates conmen standards for the whole area. If the UK wants something like NAFTA, they´ll get it fair and square and nobody will try to force free movement of people on you.



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@Gambit
The fact it's mandate has been kept secret from the populations of both and the way it was being forced upon people in the move towards enforced globalisation was and is wrong.
That is not true.
http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/in-focus/ttip/documents-and-events/index_en.htm#_documents
 
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we've been steadily going the way of the US since thatcher and sped up over the last decade,

The working class will be thrilled by it. But there again who cares of workers rights, funds to disadvantaged areas and the NHS as long as you can kick the damned poles out
 
The working class will be thrilled by it. But there again who cares of workers rights, funds to disadvantaged areas and the NHS as long as you can kick the damned poles out
sigh yes cos 52% of the country is racist and doesn't care about anything other then been racist.
 
sigh yes cos 52% of the country is racist and doesn't care about anything other then been racist.

Who mentioned race? Most of the leavers are either stuck to the British empire times or xenophobic or were lied too/stupid