Aaron Bastani acting in bad faith again, how very very surprising.
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Aaron Bastani acting in bad faith again, how very very surprising.
Hey let's be fair. It's possible that he's just very, very stupid. Doing a PhD on your mates doesn't automatically make you a smart man.
Nah your right Brexit is bloodly brilliant. My frustration is with his shite all Remain campaigns how been.
Like who for example ?
The best alternative was to united behind some form of soft Brexit when Remain lost with maybe a future peope vote(Labour answer was simply - let the members vote on Brexit policy)
Instead liberals lost there shit, tried to get rid of the only socalist leader the Labour Party has had, called anyone who voted leave mental ill, Campbell as the spokesman of campaign, voting in the millions to just fecking stopping Brexit(Truly a genius political act) and invited Michael heseltine to speak(P.s The People vote try to deselect one Labour MP - Ian lavery, former member of the NUM)
Sorry again why are you mad that left and radical voices are not showing up ?
Still even with the mountain full of shite the People vote has done, Corbyn has came for a people vote and any future Remain vote in another referendum would have the left vote.
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The Brexit Party(A party only formed only months ago which has only policy - No deal)came top in the EU elections(Beating the most Remain -ish party by 10 points)
Plus the Brexit is polling around 2nd or 1st in national polling.
It's sadly doing very well for a party with one policy.
Which just shows what we’ve known since June 2016, half the country wants Brexit, and half doesn’t. It’s the biggest political event of our time, and both the big parties are making a total arse of it.
Well we agree here.
The PV campaign have a clear narrative though, you just don't like or agree with it fully, hence this bizarre stance where committed EU Remainers are somehow bad because they alienate the right, but leftists (some of whom will fall into the former bracket) who support Corbyn are acting in good faith and somehow executing an ideal political strategy when they slate Tories and Blairites constantly. There really isn't all that much of a difference, it's just that the latter inspires your confidence whereas the former doesn't. Which is fine, if that's where your politics lie, because we're always going to be more sympathetic to our own side, but I'm struggling to see what the difference is.
But the committed Remain parties beat out the committed Leave parties (if we're excluding Tories and Labour here).
Despite 'the mountains of shite' support for remaining in the UK has been steadily growing. Whatever your personal opinions on it the suggestion that the People's Vote campaign is hardening attitudes against Remaining is ill supported. The entire basis for your argument rests (if we're kind) on absolutely nothing.
Personally, I'd be directing my anger towards the fact that Labour have been so absolutely insipid on this issue that people think campaigns and parties that you clearly think are terrible are better than what Labour are peddling.
The thing that the Joneses and the Bastanis of this world fail to realise is that defending what Labour are doing in the way that they're doing (and the way you did above) achieves nothing but further convince people that Labour have nothing for left wing Remainers anymore.
What PV narrative then ?
Simply Remaining isn't political position or it isn't one that clearly is enough to get us closer to another vote or even a giant lead in the polling for remain. It would be great if just pointing out the lies of the leave campaign was enough but it isn't, there has to be more.
How much have these people learned that will stop them from losing any future referendum. To there nothing to suggest a new campaign will be different than the one in 2016.
I don't just dislike PV because of its politics but also because it's being fecking useless.
Yeah but to that is pointless, the tories are clearly getting closer and closer to no deal.
Exactly. And the fact that liberal and socialist remainers are finding themselves having to engage in a group that also includes the likes of Heseltine says much more about the failure of Labour to provide them with a coherent alternative than it does about their own position.
Nothing has changed because the big parties have both refused to back Remain clearly, and it’s been left to groups like PV to carry the water. If Labour had come out as a clear Remain party straight after the referendum then the picture could be very different now. Parties are supposed to change the public perception not just try and cash in on the mood of the moment.
It’s more than a little disingenuous to blame PV for being useless but not blame Labour for doing what should have been their job in the first place. Unless we’re saying Labour shouldn’t represent the clear will of their own membership.
The mental thing about this place is that it's gone from some Labour members arguing with the Corbyn supporting lot that Labour has to broaden and be less ideological, to now those members arguing with the Corbyn lot that they should be less broad and more ideological. Anyone involved actually think they've not been hypocritical at any point?
What's stranger is the policies some urged Labour to drop were actually polling well whilst now remain is clearly failing to poll well 99% of the time.
I'm going to say those who call Corbyn unfit to lead but at the same time argue he's the only possible person who can push the country towards remain probably aren't in the right but are hypocrites who like a moan.
The EU election the Brexit party came on on top, it's only second or first in polling. Christ this ''growing support'' couldn't even get beyond 40% turnout for the EU elections.
Ah the old the left is so extreame it made me into a conservative. Don't care how shite Corbyn is on Brexit, no one of the left should be clapping and cheering a monster like Heseltine. I far more sympathy for any old white bloke who been sadly radicalised through right wing media over Brexit then any middle class liberal cheering Heseltine.
What do you want Labour to do ? Corbyn and shadow cabinet members have came out for a people vote.
Labour going to these marches doesn't stop labour leave MP voting leave(If we had a Democratic Party it could but guess who was against that idea)it doesn't make Tory MP's vote against their party.
So would do you actually want the Labour Party to do ?
They will get a left wing manifesto and a people vote.
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It's weird, in the UK main left party is hesitant to take a stance against Brexit because they worry about losing voters. In the US main left party is hesitant to take Trump to the cleaners because they are worried about losing voters.
Neither position is what the majority of their base wants, neither position is good for the respective countries. I hate politics/politicians...
Neither position is what the majority of their base wants, neither position is good for the respective countries. I hate politics/politicians...
Labour going to these marches doesn't stop labour leave MP voting leave(If we had a Democratic Party it could but guess who was against that idea)it doesn't make Tory MP's vote against their party.
As for labour backing remain straight after the EU referendum well first the MP's tried to get of Corbyn so. And secondly there's nothing to suggest Labour backing Remain at the start would have worked for them. They would got destroyed in the 2017 election.
I've mentioned already that labour should have gave brexit policy to members.
At its most basic your argument (supported in each paragraph by some very questionable facts and opinions) is that it's ridiculous to suggest that the main opposition should have an effective, coherent policy on the biggest issue this country is facing.
Perhaps Corbyn would still have achieved nothing (although it's a weak defence of him to argue that he's so useless that it doesn't matter what Labour try and do), but that's hardly the point, is it?
When we get some distance from these events (and from Corbyn himself) I suspect you'll look back and reflect on how weak these arguments are in supposed support of what Labour have done with regards to Brexit.
They're terribly concerned about the affect of Brexit on our nation's poorest, so they've surrounded themselves with the same Tories and Lib Dems who were happily voting to shaft them long before Brexit came along.
Ah come on now. Corbyn waiting until the last possible minute to say a variation of ‘ok, if we can’t get an election, and if a series of other alternatives don’t play out, then under those limited circumstances we’d back a people’s vote’ is hardly a position of clear support.
If he’d come out for a 2nd ref a lot earlier it might actually have happened. Now we’re a few months away from crashing out and there’s hardly any time or options left to prevent that worse case scenario, let along have a 2nd ref.
I supported Corbyn before Brexit, and now I despise the fecker for the dishonest and duplicitous way he has refused to do what he promised to do and represent the will of the membership. At the least the Tories are just being the immoral bastards they always are. Corbyn actually fooled me into thinking he had some integrity. I won’t make that mistake with him again.
How would him coming out for a second referendum 'earlier' have changed the arithmetic in the Commons?
Yep I like to the answer for this one.
Don't have the figures to hand but how close were some of the 2nd referendum amendments to passing... Then how many labour MP's didn't vote for them or abstained because they didn't want to go against labour policy.
I don't know if it would have made a difference gut feel probably not... But it would probably have made it closer at least
Which of those amendments have Labour not supported then?
Hasn't Corbyn whipped the party on two (possibly three) separate occasions by now to back a motion which included a second referendum?
A major party energetically supporting a motion often changes the parliamentary arithmetic. Look at the number of MPs who changed their position since the referendum. Leave supporting MPs were in a substantial minority before the ref and after large numbers of Remain MPs switched. Narratives take hold in parliament and people change positions. An intense Labour campaign might have changed enough minds. It might not have also, but now we’ll never know.
So you think Corbyn coming out for a second referendum 'earlier,' would have made the likes of (off the top of my head) Caroline Flint, Kate Hoey, Ian Austin, John Mann and Gareth Snell do a complete 180 on the issue?
It's quite impressive how Corbyn goes from being a crap leader to having the ability to Jedi mind trick pro-Brexit MPs at the drop of a hat.
Their position would have been much less tenable if it was in the face of a full throated Labour Remain campaign.
As for Corbyn’s ability, surely that’s the point. By not even trying to achieve those things, he made his own position extremely clear. If he’d tried and failed because of that groups intransigence, then I’d be blaming them not him. I don’t expect a leader to be a miracle worker, but if they’re genuine about something then I certainly expect them to at least try.
Hold on are you saying Anna "austerity was absolutely necessary" Soubry might not care about working people.
Just this morning on the telly
The party has repeatedly whipped in support and they've done the exact opposite and yet, you're blaming him and not them. So no, you wouldn't be doing what you claim.
Which shows she’s a disgrace to the party and should have the whip withdrawn. Meanwhile are we going to ignore the substantial number of Remain supporting Tories who are available?
Corbyn allowed his own shadow cabinet members to defy the whip. Is it any surprise that he’s not being taken seriously?
Thanks for proving my point.
Remember the glory days when calling for MPs to have the whip removed or attempting to have them deselected was Stalinist? Good times.
Thanks for proving my point.
Remember the glory days when calling for MPs to have the whip removed or attempting to have them deselected was Stalinist? Good times.
Voting against your parties whip has always been an immediate firing offense for cabinet members, regardless of your party.
Caroline Flint isn't a cabinet member though, so what do you propose for her?
And when I say her I mean Corbyn obviously, as it's clearly his fault that she keeps voting down pro-Brexit lines.
He doesn't mention Corbyn does he?
So far there hasn't be enough to outweighs the labour leave MP's. And also I'm not sure how Jeremy "commie Marxist terrorist" Corbyn(That what Tories think of him)is going to win them over.
Corbyn is a politician, not a miracle worker.
No, he just blames the Peoples Vote campaign for no deal being an increasingly likely option. I was trying to work out how he figured that out, given Corbyn could easily have pushed the deal through with Labour votes. But Bastani is your basic Corbyn cheerleader with no original thoughts of his own and will frequently lie to push that agenda, so I wasn't really expecting much else either.
Dunno... For sure this one from the libs where they ordered people to abstain (and most did)
https://brexitcentral.com/mps-rejec...otion-seeking-article-50-extension-mps-voted/
As I say... Not sure it would have made a difference
All well and good but does that track with support for a second referendum because I'm fairly certain it doesn't from what I've seen/can remember.