Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Maticmaker]

I don't believe this is in regards to the investment into the NHS, it's the claim we're sending 350 million a week which is just flat out false.

As i said i don't think such private prosecutions are the form to challenge blatant lies. The electoral commission should be given extra powers to enforce corrections being published immediately and fine further discretions heavily.

I understand what you mean, recent figures (today on Google news brief) suggest the net UK contribution after the rebate came to £6.5B for the last year figures are available. The actual amount paid per annum (before rebate) was around £10B/yr, which fell to £8.5B.
Boris' defence will no doubt point to the lack of independent audit of EU figures, there is still dispute in some quarters about the validity of the £39B divorce settlement total.

I thought Boris got panned because it was his suggestion the NHS would benefit directly from the UK leaving the EU. if I remember correctly the actual amount was in dispute from day one of the launch of the coach, with Boris later admitting it was £250M not £350m. It was this supposed injection of former EU monies directly to the NHS that swung public opinion behind Brexit ( if indeed that's what it did).

Whatever the truth, this is a side show and a distraction from the real problems we face and is and will be seen, as a deliberate attempt to 'blacken' Boris's reputation, prior to the leadership election... which I would have thought he needed no help from anyone! Unfortunately Boris is like Trump the more he is attacked by his enemies the more his supporters love him!

 

[Sassy Colin]

Their plan appears to be the free marketeers dream of a deregulated Singapore-on-Thames offshore haven with a privatised NHS and corporation tax rates of 10% (plus a big trade deal with the Donald).

According to Farage, we only do 15% of trade with the EU anyway, and we will just deal with the other 85% of the World. This was in the Marr interview that some people claimed he had won, with such simplistic bullshit lies like this.

 

[Sassy Colin]

London is full of immigrants

It's full of fecking tourists, you idiots!

 

[Cheesy]

I disagree that the country is only doing ok for the wealthy. Unemployment is at a historic low. The majority of new jobs created are full time. The minimum wage has increased 25% from £6.50 to £8.13 over the past 5 years, whilst inflation has increased at less than half this rate. General Wage growth is strong (average 3%). The tax free allowance has increased from £8k to £12.5k over the same period. The bottom 10% in terms of earnings (the poorest workers in society) are seeing % wage growth at the fastest of all bands. I'd absolutely say that the country is doing decent by any normal metric. Obviously the country isn't back to where it was pre-crash and obviously there are still people who're absolutely struggling every day; however if you don't believe the country as a whole have done "decent" over the last 5 years then I'd say that your expectations need to be tempered.

I don't want this turning into a Tory vs Labour discussion as I support neither, but to believe that the Labour manifesto of 2017 would do anything to help the people you speak about is simply bizarre. Implementing it would have tanked the economy which would have made everyone poorer, especially the young who already outpace other age groups in terms of unemployment.

Unemployment is low but I'd argue job security isn't as strong as it was before which contributes highly to a lot of people's anxieties. Sectors are increasingly being automated and a lot of people feel left behind by an economy that doesn't value them and isn't doing anything to help them as they try to get by. Those in a position to earn are doing alright but those who've been hit hardest by austerity quite evidently aren't; there have been UN reports which have detailed how austerity has hurt some of Britain's poorest people and those policies have been implemented out of ideology alone. Those hit by austerity have suffered because of the greed of those who crashed the economy in the first place.

Housing prices have also skyrocketed and young people are less able to afford property than they were before - this is fundamentally a bad thing because in a capitalist society the people who do well should, to some degree, be able to obtain capital. And so instead people are having to rent for much longer and deal with all the uncertainties that surround doing so, often dealing with landlords who greedily increase prices when they don't need to. I'm no fan of Thatcher or her ideology but this is something she understood - for right-wing politics to work a substantial portion of the population actually need to see the benefit of said policies. Swathes of younger voters just aren't getting anything from the current economic settlement they operate within.

Figures may indicate we've made an economic recovery to a certain extent but those same figures largely ignore the hurt that's been inflicted on Britain's most vulnerable individuals - there's been plenty of documentation of the cruel approach the DWP have often used when targeting those out of work through no fault of their own. Similarly young people aren't reaping the rewards of capitalism in the same way previous generations did and are condescendingly being blamed for mistakes made by older generations. Hence they're responding in kind to vote for a government that actually promises to help them. I'm no Corbyn voter and I don't doubt many of his plans have their own flaws, but there is quite clearly a desire to see substantial change within the country.

I'm not sure how anyone can look at the current divisions and anxieties we're seeing across the globe and argue that everything is fine. Do you think people are just opting for more populist political parties arbitrarily? If not, what's the reason behind it?

 

[Adisa]

Let's cut to the chase. When people say a multicultural city is "not really British", they mean they see too many people of different colours.

 

[Sweet Square]

Let's cut to the chase. When people say a multicultural city is "not really British", they mean they see too many people of different colours.

Pretty much.

Also Clesse clearly thinks English = White only.

 

[finneh]

I'm not sure how anyone can look at the current divisions and anxieties we're seeing across the globe and argue that everything is fine. Do you think people are just opting for more populist political parties arbitrarily? If not, what's the reason behind it?

I think it's far more nuanced than "people poorer, people choose extreme parties". As I said most statistics show things are getting back to 2007 levels, albeit far more slowly than most would like.

I agree with you by the way, but disagree with the reason. You blame austerity, I blame successive governments of all three colours who've implemented tax and spend policies and then do what people do with heaps of cash that isn't theirs: squander it.

You look at every department and every single one claims to be underfunded. The NHS, Education, Military, local government, Police, Welfare, Pensions... However at the same time we're still spending more than the record tax level both as a % and as a number in modern times.

That's a clear oxymoron. We can't be hugely overspending on a record tax take, whilst also underfunding every single department via "austerity". Austerity would have the country paying off the national debt at a 10 or 11 figure level per annum, not adding to it at that rate. If you get a pay rise and at the same time cut your expenditure... You don't end up with less money, that's physically impossible.

The problem is a circular one. Government waste money because there's no incentive to use it effectively. Government runs out of money so increases tax. Government waste tax because see sentence two. Government increases tax. This is literally the reason for laws against monopolies... What do you think would happen if only Amazon were legally allowed to sell things to the public?

They'll be increasing unrest as this model isn't sustainable. The pension for young people today isn't sustainable, the health deficit for people today isn't sustainable, the welfare deficit isn't sustainable, the care deficit isn't sustainable.

The fact that my current tax is being used to pay for a 70 years old's pension is literally legalised theft. My tax should be ring fenced for when my generation is 70, just like my grandparents should have been ring fenced for theirs. Do you know what the term is for that in the private sector? A ponzi scheme! It's the biggest legalised ponzi scheme known to man and just like with Madoff... The scheme can only crumble.

 

[Stanley Road]

Fukking hell. What has this thread become? Ring fence my taxes?? Feck off nutter

 

[Sigma]

Matt Hancock on Newsnight at the moment and he seems pretty clueless. Talking about how we can use 'alternative arrangements' to sort out the backstop without explaining (like anyone else who uses that phrase) what that is.

 

[Jippy]

I think it's far more nuanced than "people poorer, people choose extreme parties". As I said most statistics show things are getting back to 2007 levels, albeit far more slowly than most would like.

I agree with you by the way, but disagree with the reason. You blame austerity, I blame successive governments of all three colours who've implemented tax and spend policies and then do what people do with heaps of cash that isn't theirs: squander it.

You look at every department and every single one claims to be underfunded. The NHS, Education, Military, local government, Police, Welfare, Pensions... However at the same time we're still spending more than the record tax level both as a % and as a number in modern times.

That's a clear oxymoron. We can't be hugely overspending on a record tax take, whilst also underfunding every single department via "austerity". Austerity would have the country paying off the national debt at a 10 or 11 figure level per annum, not adding to it at that rate. If you get a pay rise and at the same time cut your expenditure... You don't end up with less money, that's physically impossible.

The problem is a circular one. Government waste money because there's no incentive to use it effectively. Government runs out of money so increases tax. Government waste tax because see sentence two. Government increases tax. This is literally the reason for laws against monopolies... What do you think would happen if only Amazon were legally allowed to sell things to the public?

They'll be increasing unrest as this model isn't sustainable. The pension for young people today isn't sustainable, the health deficit for people today isn't sustainable, the welfare deficit isn't sustainable, the care deficit isn't sustainable.

The fact that my current tax is being used to pay for a 70 years old's pension is literally legalised theft. My tax should be ring fenced for when my generation is 70, just like my grandparents should have been ring fenced for theirs. Do you know what the term is for that in the private sector? A ponzi scheme! It's the biggest legalised ponzi scheme known to man and just like with Madoff... The scheme can only crumble.

So by the same token the government should spend zero on your generation's education and healthcare until you start paying income tax in your teens or 20s.

 

[Jippy]

Matt Hancock on Newsnight at the moment and he seems pretty clueless. Talking about how we can use 'alternative arrangements' to sort out the backstop without explaining (like anyone else who uses that phrase) what that is.

It's one notch below 'will of the people' in the aggravation stakes.

 

[Cheesy]

I think it's far more nuanced than "people poorer, people choose extreme parties". As I said most statistics show things are getting back to 2007 levels, albeit far more slowly than most would like.

I agree with you by the way, but disagree with the reason. You blame austerity, I blame successive governments of all three colours who've implemented tax and spend policies and then do what people do with heaps of cash that isn't theirs: squander it.

You look at every department and every single one claims to be underfunded. The NHS, Education, Military, local government, Police, Welfare, Pensions... However at the same time we're still spending more than the record tax level both as a % and as a number in modern times.

That's a clear oxymoron. We can't be hugely overspending on a record tax take, whilst also underfunding every single department via "austerity". Austerity would have the country paying off the national debt at a 10 or 11 figure level per annum, not adding to it at that rate. If you get a pay rise and at the same time cut your expenditure... You don't end up with less money, that's physically impossible.

The problem is a circular one. Government waste money because there's no incentive to use it effectively. Government runs out of money so increases tax. Government waste tax because see sentence two. Government increases tax. This is literally the reason for laws against monopolies... What do you think would happen if only Amazon were legally allowed to sell things to the public?

They'll be increasing unrest as this model isn't sustainable. The pension for young people today isn't sustainable, the health deficit for people today isn't sustainable, the welfare deficit isn't sustainable, the care deficit isn't sustainable.

The fact that my current tax is being used to pay for a 70 years old's pension is literally legalised theft. My tax should be ring fenced for when my generation is 70, just like my grandparents should have been ring fenced for theirs. Do you know what the term is for that in the private sector? A ponzi scheme! It's the biggest legalised ponzi scheme known to man and just like with Madoff... The scheme can only crumble.

No it isn't - the tax is theft argument is nonsense. If you're well-off and you pay tax then that tax ensures people are healthy which allows them to work and contribute to the economy, it ensures they're educated so allows them to work to a high standard (if we're talking purely in an economic sense here), and those same taxes also ensure you're secure by paying police.

Governments have plenty of inefficiency but again the idea the private sector is automatically better because it's incentivised is nonsense. The private sector is just as riddled as the public sector with incompetence, bureaucracy (within larger organisations) and nepotism with plenty of sectors/companies where knowing the right people is the best way to secure a better wage in the long-term. And these businesses are ultimately incentivised to do what's best for them: if that means hurting ordinary people along the way then they will do so if they get greater profits. You're confusing the incentive to make more money for a company with the incentive to do a public service.

In some departments (like health) we're having to spend more because the successes of that very service now mean that people live longer and so end up requiring more care. In a sense that need to spend more is the result of what's been done well.

And the reason people are unhappy is largely due to austerity. There have been literal UN reports into this and a ton of economists have condemned Tory measures over the years as unnecessary and often unhelpful. And yet they've persisted anyway because of an ideological drive that's hurt people along the way, all the while scapegoating other groups (like migrants) for problems they've created. The anger which led to Brexit is largely derived from that.

The government spending you condemn is largely what's made Britain the modern state it is today in the postwar era, even if there are a ton of problems that remain.

 

[finneh]

So by the same token the government should spend zero on your generation's education and healthcare until you start paying income tax in your teens or 20s.

If you're working on the premise that the government are the body who should be spending money on Healthcare and Education (rather than merely regulating it), then it should be paid for by the 13 figure sovereign wealth fund that we should be sitting on. Naturally that's been squandered though.

 

[RedChip]

Matt Hancock on Newsnight at the moment and he seems pretty clueless. Talking about how we can use 'alternative arrangements' to sort out the backstop without explaining (like anyone else who uses that phrase) what that is.

His whole pitch seems to be, 'Vote for me, because I am younger than the others and used to work in technology.'

The bar is low and there appears no need to demonstrate leadership talent or any kind of (relevant) talent to enter this race. That all and sundry seems to think they should be prime minister is a pretty sad indictment of the Tory party and the country.

 

[Abizzz]

His whole pitch seems to be, 'Vote for me, because I am younger than the others and used to work in technology.'

The bar is low and there appears no need to demonstrate leadership talent or any kind of (relevant) talent to enter this race. That all and sundry seems to think they should be prime minister is a pretty sad indictment of the Tory party and the country.

In fairness any aspiring Tory who witnessed the leadership of the past 14 years most surely think he/she is capable of better by default. Worth remembering this entire mess was started by a poor leader trying to sure up his position. Then the past 34 months they witnessed unquestioning loyalty to Maybot, who is less of a natural leader than a 5 year old with the only football in her class.

Given the circumstances just about anybody can feel they would do better...

 

[esmufc07]

I do like this Rory Stewart guy. Doesn't seem like a complete idiot

 

[SteveJ]

Re: Cleese's recent remarks ~ former Smiths singer Morrissey seems to suffer from the same combination of self-righteousness and outdatedness:

When I asked Morrissey whether he would consider living in England again, his answer shocked me: “Britain’s a terribly negative place. And it hammers people down and it pulls you back and it prevents you. Also, with the issue of immigration, it’s very difficult because, although I don’t have anything against people from other countries, the higher the influx into England, the more the British identity disappears. So the price is enormous. If you travel to Germany, it’s still absolutely Germany. If you travel to Sweden, it still has a Swedish identity. But travel to England and you have no idea where you are.”

I asked about his own parents being Irish immigrants, and how that had allowed him to make his very British music, to which he replied: “Yes. But it’s different now. Because the gates are flooded. And anybody can have access to England and join in … You have to be sensible about everything in life. You can’t say: “Everybody come into my house, sit on the bed, have what you like, do what you like. It wouldn’t work.” Elsewhere, he claimed that: “It seems to me that England was thrown away,” and that: “You’ll hear every accent under the sun apart from the British accent,” in Knightsbridge.

 

[JPRouve]

I do like this Rory Stewart guy. Doesn't seem like a complete idiot

At least someone understand what he is on about and what he says doesn't even go against Brexit, you can Brexit but there is a way to do it and there is a clear goal to present in front of the average british population. People may not realize it but Tories plan is to benefit a small part of London while royally shaft the rest of the UK. Corbyn's socialist ideas are philosophically respectable but if I'm being honest I don't think that it's workable when you don't have an awful lot of natural resources, the UK would probably be better served with a very balanced approach and being part of the EU or EFTA is probably the easiest way to get that.

 

[Phil Jones Face]

I do like this Rory Stewart guy. Doesn't seem like a complete idiot

I've seen a handful of interviews with him and he has come across well in all of them. Seems far too sensible and likeable for the Tory party.

 

[Kaos]

There’s nothing remotely special about Rory Stewart. He’s just your standard, cameronite, one nation Tory.

The Tory party’s shift to the right in recent years has just made him seem relatively moderate and sensible.

 

[Sassy Colin]

Looks like Eddie Redmayne.

 

[Smores]

Some 'interesting' views coming out of the woodwork last couple of days in here. At least claiming the NHS can't be underfunded isn't quite as mental as climate change denial.

 

[Adisa]

I do like this Rory Stewart guy. Doesn't seem like a complete idiot

I don't like him but when i was younger, I used to think he was a Labour party member. Blair sent him to Iraq as a governor or something.

 

[SerenityValley]

Cleese.

Eric Idle is anti Brexit. Nobody mentioned him.

Are you the people’s front of London?

 

[711]

There’s nothing remotely special about Rory Stewart. He’s just your standard, cameronite, one nation Tory.

The Tory party’s shift to the right in recent years has just made him seem relatively moderate and sensible.

True, and Labour's shift to the left adds to the impression.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

There’s nothing remotely special about Rory Stewart.

Don't know about that. His speech on hedgehogs was pretty special.

 

[Ban]

Are you the people’s front of London?

Eerm. No.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I don't like him but when i was younger, I used to think he was a Labour party member. Blair sent him to Iraq as a governor or something.

Apparently he was a member of the Labour party as a teenager.

 

[2cents]

 

[rotherham_red]

I do like this Rory Stewart guy. Doesn't seem like a complete idiot

Have a look at his voting record on welfare and see if you still think he's decent...

 

[Pogue Mahone]

 

[RedSky]

Have a look at his voting record on welfare and see if you still think he's decent...

Anyone who shits talk Reese Mogg can't be all that bad. He is a Tory though so he's probably got some dark evil plan room in his basement.

 

[horsechoker]

Far more relatable and sensible than the others, make him PM. The others probably get up to worse stuff behind closed doors anyway.

 

[Cheesy]

Far more relatable and sensible than the others, make him PM. The others probably get up to worse stuff behind closed doors anyway.

Yes, Tory MP's can smoke opium and it makes them quirky but poor people do it and they go to jail. Seems fair.

 

[SteveJ]

Gap yah.

 

[horsechoker]

Yes, Tory MP's can smoke opium and it makes them quirky but poor people do it and they go to jail. Seems fair.

Didn't say he was completely relatable but it goes to show how unrelatable the rest are

 

[Cheesy]

Didn't say he was completely relatable but it goes to show how unrelatable the rest are

Most of the others will have done their fair share of drugs as well to be fair. Obviously not in contention now but Osborne was well-known as a proper coke fiend back in his uni days.

 

[Jippy]

If you're working on the premise that the government are the body who should be spending money on Healthcare and Education (rather than merely regulating it), then it should be paid for by the 13 figure sovereign wealth fund that we should be sitting on. Naturally that's been squandered though.

Yup, although comparing us to the likes of Norway is specious at best.

 

[Steven Seagull]

I think Stewart might be the first MP that appears to have a grasp of the facts around tariffs and WTO rules.

 

[finneh]

Yup, although comparing us to the likes of Norway is specious at best.

I wasn't comparing us to anyone. Opting to build our economy via the model of a ponzi scheme is insanity though.