Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

[Smores]

Taking a stance and arguing for it? Yes, absolutely. If the Labour party is only going to argue for things that voters already agree with, what is the point of them?

And which subset of electoral voters will they be gaining to outweigh the loss of Labour leave voters?

Some of you are so caught up in Labour having to be flat out remain when we already have a party to capture those voters. If a non right wing goverment is going to be established it's likely going to be with Labour getting votes of some leave voters.

Labour going remain isn't gaining the votes of Tories (the Brexit Party), it's just taking them away from the Lib Dems and Green.

I'm hoping they now support a 2nd ref but if instead it's a general election they should run on a soft brexit and accept lost votes to the Lib Dems.

 

[pacifictheme]

I am starting to think that Remain is not a majority in UK. Or at least not enough majority to deserve a second Referendum

Its closer than it should be. But i think the brexiters are more frenzied than remainers. Having meps doesn't really change a lot

Why would anyone want to remain in this failure of a project?

The UK is lucky, your people had the balls to do the right thing and vote leave. Why do you want to ruin it so badly?

How is it a failure of a project again?

 

[DOTA]

How is it a failure of a project again?

It's not. It's a failing project. Admittedly one that did a lot of good but right now it's looking very vulnerable.

 

[pacifictheme]

It's not. It's a failing project. Admittedly one that did a lot of good but right now it's looking very vulnerable.

Is that due to the 'project' itself or due to the misinformation spouted by racist chancers across the eu, with the general public too thick to understand what the eu contributes and protects.

 

[DOTA]

Is that due to the 'project' itself or due to the misinformation spouted by racist chancers across the eu, with the general public too thick to understand what the eu contributes and protects.

Umm... I'm unsure I see the relevance. The project has always been a democratic one.

But, yeah, it's the fashy sorts who are screwing it up.

 

[Kill 'em all]

Umm... I'm unsure I see the relevance. The project has always been a democratic one.

But, yeah, it's the fashy sorts who are screwing it up.

Democratic? So the people in my country votes for a certain policy but it's not allowed by the EU. How is that democratic? That's tyranny.

When the EU first started out, it was more of a trade union. Now it's looking more likely that the long term vision is that of a central government for the EU region.

Then there's the other argument the currency. Using a single currency over so many different countries with such a different socio-economic background will never works and history backs that statement. Single currencies in such scenarios always fail.

 

[DOTA]

Democratic? So the people in my country votes for a certain policy but it's not allowed by the EU. How is that democratic? That's tyranny.

When the EU first started out, it was more of a trade union. Now it's looking more likely that the long term vision is that of a central government for the EU region.

Then there's the other argument the currency. Using a single currency over so many different countries with such a different socio-economic background will never works and history backs that statement. Single currencies in such scenarios always fail.

Yes! You're seeing the light! Our votes are largely meaningless in every and all elections and abused by the powers that be. Democracy is a con! Viva anarchy!

Your tangent about currency is an odd one for an anarchist but it's a strong start nonetheless.

 

[oates]

Yes! You're seeing the light! Our votes are largely meaningless in every and all elections and abused by the powers that be. Democracy is a con! Viva anarchy!

Your tangent about currency is an odd one for an anarchist but it's a strong start nonetheless.

Good morning Pierre-Joseph.

 

[RedChip]

And which subset of electoral voters will they be gaining to outweigh the loss of Labour leave voters?

Some of you are so caught up in Labour having to be flat out remain when we already have a party to capture those voters. If a non right wing goverment is going to be established it's likely going to be with Labour getting votes of some leave voters.

Labour going remain isn't gaining the votes of Tories (the Brexit Party), it's just taking them away from the Lib Dems and Green.

I'm hoping they now support a 2nd ref but if instead it's a general election they should run on a soft brexit and accept lost votes to the Lib Dems.

Well, that other party is capturing meaty chunks of labour voters whilst labour doesn't appear to be capturing leave voters from others. How confident are you Labour will not lose even more voters come GE if it doesn't change tack?

I'm no pollster, but my reading of these EU election numbers is that there isn't a majority for a wooly compromise deal that 'unites' the country. It seems it is either hard Brexit or Remain. If Labour shifts to remain, on these numbers, then Remain has a good chance.

 

[DOTA]

Good morning Pierre-Joseph.

And to yourself. May the state be thoroughly smashed.

 

[Abizzz]

Democratic? So the people in my country votes for a certain policy but it's not allowed by the EU. How is that democratic? That's tyranny.

You are seriously disrespectful to people who have to live in an actual tyranny.

When the EU first started out, it was more of a trade union. Now it's looking more likely that the long term vision is that of a central government for the EU region.

Then there's the other argument the currency. Using a single currency over so many different countries with such a different socio-economic background will never works and history backs that statement. Single currencies in such scenarios always fail.

Examples?

 

[golden_blunder]

Looks like they (remainders) missed the chance to strike whilst the iron was hot.
People are so fed up now that I’ve no doubt that a 2nd referendum would come out in favor of leave

 

[MoskvaRed]

Looks like they (remainders) missed the chance to strike whilst the iron was hot.
People are so fed up now that I’ve no doubt that a 2nd referendum would come out in favor of leave

It’s overstating it to say that Leave would definitely win but I do think that it’s clear that 2016 Leave voters are never going to change their minds. There is no point in doubling down on “Project Fear” about the horrors of a no deal Brexit.

Therefore you are left hoping that demographic changes in the last three years combined with a higher turn out from previuosly complacent Remainers would nudge the Remain vote into the low to mid 50s.

 

[Dave89]

"17.4m people want to leave"

Doesn't look like 17.4 million voted for the Farage party, UKIP and Tories yesterday. But we won't hear that.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Democratic? So the people in my country votes for a certain policy but it's not allowed by the EU. How is that democratic? That's tyranny.

When the EU first started out, it was more of a trade union. Now it's looking more likely that the long term vision is that of a central government for the EU region.

Then there's the other argument the currency. Using a single currency over so many different countries with such a different socio-economic background will never works and history backs that statement. Single currencies in such scenarios always fail.

You don't seem to understand how the EU works.

I'll ignore your comment about the single currency, seeing as Britain isn't in the eurozone and never will be.

 

[Kill 'em all]

You don't seem to understand how the EU works.

The EU does not work. What is there to understand?

 

[esmufc07]

I really can't figure out how this buffoon is on the front bench.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

The EU does not work. What is there to understand?

Works fine mate, has helped build the economies of Europe and has granted freedoms to it's citizens never before seen in the history of civilisation.

 

[Kill 'em all]

Works fine mate, has helped build the economies of Europe and has granted freedoms to it's citizens never before seen in the history of civilisation.

At the same time it wants to crush the economies of Ireland, Malta, Cyprus and Hungary by introducing tax harmonisation and at the same time doing damage to their reputation with the constant attacks by the likes of Ana Gomes and those who share similar views towards these countries, going as far as labeling them as tax havens, centres of money laundering, corrupt and having no rule of law.

Tax harmonisation will put these countries into big economic turmoil should it go through because their economy depends on offering tax advantages.

 

[Smores]

Well, that other party is capturing meaty chunks of labour voters whilst labour doesn't appear to be capturing leave voters from others. How confident are you Labour will not lose even more voters come GE if it doesn't change tack?

I'm no pollster, but my reading of these EU election numbers is that there isn't a majority for a wooly compromise deal that 'unites' the country. It seems it is either hard Brexit or Remain. If Labour shifts to remain, on these numbers, then Remain has a good chance.

I'm not confident at all in fact it's quite likely since any vote right now is single issue. In the short term i just don't care as long as the votes are going left.

We're well away from any one party getting a majority so it's just about a coalition. I'm fairly confident that Labour would drop brexit to form a liberal coalition although they'll suffer for it.

 

[RoadTrip]

At the same time it wants to crush the economies of Ireland, Malta, Cyprus and Hungary by introducing tax harmonisation and at the same time doing damage to their reputation with the constant attacks by the likes of Ana Gomes and those who share similar views towards these countries, going as far as labeling them as tax havens, centres of money laundering, corrupt and having no rule of law.

Tax harmonisation will put these countries into big economic turmoil should it go through because their economy depends on offering tax advantages.

It’s not just the EU who is legislating to diminish the tax loop holes such havens have. Pretty much every major government is doing so. Because it takes tax revenue away from their country. Are all these countries operating a tyranny too?

 

[Dave89]

At the same time it wants to crush the economies of Ireland, Malta, Cyprus and Hungary by introducing tax harmonisation and at the same time doing damage to their reputation with the constant attacks by the likes of Ana Gomes and those who share similar views towards these countries, going as far as labeling them as tax havens, centres of money laundering, corrupt and having no rule of law.

Tax harmonisation will put these countries into big economic turmoil should it go through because their economy depends on offering tax advantages.

So a big criticism of the EU is that they are actively working against a race to the bottom that benefits the rich?

Farage really is a man of the people.

 

[Massive Spanner]

At the same time it wants to crush the economies of Ireland, Malta, Cyprus and Hungary by introducing tax harmonisation and at the same time doing damage to their reputation with the constant attacks by the likes of Ana Gomes and those who share similar views towards these countries, going as far as labeling them as tax havens, centres of money laundering, corrupt and having no rule of law.

Tax harmonisation will put these countries into big economic turmoil should it go through because their economy depends on offering tax advantages.

The EU has repeatedly stated they aren't going to try enforce us to change our corporation tax rate, and by law they can't do so anyway. What they've said is that they want companies to be taxed fairly and have proper regulations in each country so that stuff like Apple's €13bn of uncollected tax debacle doesn't occur again.

Enlighten yourself: https://ec.europa.eu/ireland/news/key-eu-policy-areas/taxation_en

Ireland has benefited from EU membership more than just about every other country out there.

 

[Kill 'em all]

The EU has repeatedly stated they aren't going to try enforce us to change our corporation tax rate, and by law they can't do so anyway. What they've said is that they want companies to be taxed fairly and have proper regulations in each country so that stuff like Apple's €13bn of uncollected tax debacle doesn't occur again.

Enlighten yourself: https://ec.europa.eu/ireland/news/key-eu-policy-areas/taxation_en

Ireland has benefited from EU membership more than just about every other country out there.

Enlighten myself when I'm an accountant who works in a tax consultancy firm.

For example, Malta has a refund system in which a company set up by non-resident UBOs can get a 6/7ths or 5/7ths refund on the 35% tax paid on the distribution of profits, resulting in an effective tax rate of between 0 and 10% depending on whether any double taxation relief is available. It's not a loophole, it's law. This has made a lot of foreign Gaming and financial services companies open up in Malta, salaries have increased because the demand for employees is much higher than the supply and the economy is growing at rates which we've never seen before.

Even the government acknowledges the fact that with tax harmonisation our economy would suffer.

 

[Massive Spanner]

Enlighten myself when I'm an accountant who works in a tax consultancy firm.

For example, Malta has a refund system in which a company set up by non-resident UBOs can get a 6/7ths or 5/7ths refund on the 35% tax paid on the distribution of profits, resulting in an effective tax rate of between 0 and 10% depending on whether any double taxation relief is available. It's not a loophole, it's law. This has made a lot of foreign Gaming and financial services companies open up in Malta, salaries have increased because the demand for employees is much higher than the supply and the economy is growing at rates which we've never seen before.

Even the government acknowledges the fact that with tax harmonisation our economy would suffer.

What does any of that have to do with what I said?

 

[redshaw]

Why would anyone want to remain in this failure of a project?

The UK is lucky, your people had the balls to do the right thing and vote leave. Why do you want to ruin it so badly?

Well the vote was a very small majority, it's very much split down the middle and still is probably so it's actually very difficult to go one way or the other and compromise doesn't please either side and the way the EU is designed you risk a huge hit economically by leaving.

Also there's a huge issue with the Irish border that makes it very difficult for people in official positions. The public voted without really considering it.

 

[Paul the Wolf]

So looks like Le Pen (RN) and Macron (LREM) will both have 23 seats each. Loss of 1 for Le Pen and 1.5% less votes. Gain of 23 seats for Macron.

Other anti-EU parties (Mélenchon, Phillipot, Gilets Jaunes etc) had terrible results and traditional Tories and Labour also did very badly. Greens did well.

Overall not a bad result at all.

 

[DOTA]

So looks like Le Pen (RN) and Macron (LREM) will both have 23 seats each. Loss of 1 for Le Pen and 1.5% less votes. Gain of 23 seats for Macron.

Other anti-EU parties (Mélenchon, Phillipot, Gilets Jaunes etc) had terrible results and traditional Tories and Labour also did very badly. Greens did well.

Overall not a bad result at all.

Housemate's French mum voted for your Greens on the basis that 'at the worst, they will do nothing'. I kind of think that could be a slogan for the Greens.

 

[Ubik]

So looks like Le Pen (RN) and Macron (LREM) will both have 23 seats each. Loss of 1 for Le Pen and 1.5% less votes. Gain of 23 seats for Macron.

Other anti-EU parties (Mélenchon, Phillipot, Gilets Jaunes etc) had terrible results and traditional Tories and Labour also did very badly. Greens did well.

Overall not a bad result at all.

Seems to be the story across europe. Eco-left, hard right and centrists did well, whilst the old left and the centre-left/right did poorly.

 

[ThierryHenry]

This is so irritating.
The Brexit party is in a massive lead. If you add UKIP and the Conservatives it is close to 50% votes for Leave. If you add Lib Dems and Greens (after all, as you and everyone else in this thread have said, Labour is a brexit party), it is *not* close to 50% for remain.

The fallacy is that there is some mass of Remain voters waiting to jump ship to Labour in a parliamentary election, which can offset Leave losses, and I just don't see it.

They might well do better, there's no guarantee of it (they might do worse too). There's also no guarantee that a second referendum wouldn't be Leave again.

Firstly, I’m not sure that this argument holds. There are also remainer-Tories. If you add up the votes from last night, pro-remain parties got 40.4% of the vote, hard-leave parties got 34.9% of the vote, Labour got 14.1% and the Conservatives 9.1%. Labour are leaving a lot of votes behind if they continue to annoy the remain voices.

Secondly, it goes beyond strategy three years after the fact. I feel that Corbyn has failed the country by refusing to discuss or debate Brexit in the years following the referendum. That firstly allowed Theresa May to frame the structure on which we would leave (her red lines that have got us in this mess), and has since meant that the debate has mostly been fought from the right of those red lines, bringing us closer and closer to no deal. If the debate was instead May’s red lines vs. Corbyn demanding a softer brexit to protect the economy (potentially with a second referendum to pass it), we’d be in a completely different situation. His indifference to the situation is maddening, and has given the debate to the loons on the right.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

This is a good point.

 

[NinjaFletch]

This is a good point.

I'd imagine it doesn't look much different to how it looked before the UKIP MEPs rebadged themselves as the Brexit Party tbf.

 

[Smores]

Firstly, I’m not sure that this argument holds. There are also remainer-Tories. If you add up the votes from last night, pro-remain parties got 40.4% of the vote, hard-leave parties got 34.9% of the vote, Labour got 14.1% and the Conservatives 9.1%. Labour are leaving a lot of votes behind if they continue to annoy the remain voices.

Secondly, it goes beyond strategy three years after the fact. I feel that Corbyn has failed the country by refusing to discuss or debate Brexit in the years following the referendum. That firstly allowed Theresa May to frame the structure on which we would leave (her red lines that have got us in this mess), and has since meant that the debate has mostly been fought from the right of those red lines, bringing us closer and closer to no deal. If the debate was instead May’s red lines vs. Corbyn demanding a softer brexit to protect the economy (potentially with a second referendum to pass it), we’d be in a completely different situation. His indifference to the situation is maddening, and has given the debate to the loons on the right.

Not been paying much attention if you think Labour haven't been pushing a softer brexit. The issue is there's no appetite for it which is why it's been voted down 2 (maybe 3) times.

 

[Infra-red]

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I'd imagine it doesn't look much different to how it looked before the UKIP MEPs rebadged themselves as the Brexit Party tbf.

Yeah, true. Although the name change really makes it explicit how this clusterfcuk won't ever go away.

 

[ThierryHenry]

Not been paying much attention if you think Labour haven't been pushing a softer brexit. The issue is there's no appetite for it which is why it's been voted down 2 (maybe 3) times.

They’ve hardly mentioned it at all.

 

[Smores]

Hopefully we'll some analysis of the makeup of Labour and Tory votes because most of those still wanting Brexit would have gone to the Brexit party surely? Maybe some still want a 'sensible' brexit but even then if it was no deal or remain which would they choose.

 

[NinjaFletch]

Hopefully we'll some analysis of the makeup of Labour and Tory votes because most of those still wanting Brexit would have gone to the Brexit party surely? Maybe some still want a 'sensible' brexit but even then if it was no deal or remain which would they choose.

There's a decent break down of where parties won votes on the BBC article that is taken from.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48403131

Not a perfect representation, but I think it's pretty plausible to suggest that a majority of the Labour votes came from Remain minded voters.

 

[Sigma]

The democracy argument is such a dumb argument.

1. The vote was 3 years ago and it was a choice between one abstract idea (leave) and one known outcome (remain). If remain had won, we would not have been negotiating our exit from the EU for these 3 years so to say the referendum has been ignored is just wrong. Now that there is greater understanding on what leave means (i.e. we now have a deal), we can see if the public support this or not. This has only come to the fore via the public, media and politician reaction which has clearly showed that everyone feels the current direction of the country is not what people voted for.

2. The referendum was not binding.

3. Normally for constitutional changes as big as this, you need to win the vote by a substantial majority (2/3s).

 

[Maticmaker]

The democracy argument is such a dumb argument.

1. The vote was 3 years ago and it was a choice between one abstract idea (leave) and one known outcome (remain). If remain had won, we would not have been negotiating our exit from the EU for these 3 years so to say the referendum has been ignored is just wrong. Now that there is greater understanding on what leave means (i.e. we now have a deal), we can see if the public support this or not. This has only come to the fore via the public, media and politician reaction which has clearly showed that everyone feels the current direction of the country is not what people voted for.

2. The referendum was not binding.

3. Normally for constitutional changes as big as this, you need to win the vote by a substantial majority (2/3s).

Says it all really!

Perhaps we should go for a "benevolent dictatorship" instead... as long as he agrees with us!