Brexited | the worst threads live the longest

Do you think there will be a Deal or No Deal?

  • Total voters
    194
  • Poll closed .
nickm said:
I don't agree at all. Inductive reasoning is about drawing conclusions based on little evidence. Verbal memory is about remembering words and other abstractions. Numeric reasoning is about understanding basic maths, perceptual speed is about comparing stuff accurately. All these characteristics seem pretty important to making a good quality decision.
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I think your confusing inductive and deductive reasoning... Manifestos... Interviews and your lifetimes experience of politics would make voting a deductive process I think
Deductive%20vs.%20Inductive%20Reasoning.jpg


Based on what you said then perhaps a maths test is needed prior to voting ... Get below a c at maths in GCSE and you loose the right to vote... Get b and you can vote till 60 and an a to vote till 70... It's just a stupid idea to draw an arbitrary age when you are determined not to be mentally capable of making a decision

Just look how many FTSE 100 companies have md's in their 60's... Clearly experience has some value

I mean telling Stephen hawking he couldn't have voted in the last election because he might not have been able to understand the numbers in a political manifesto due to his age is just stupid...
 
sun_tzu said:
I think your confusing inductive and deductive reasoning... Manifestos... Interviews and your lifetimes experience of politics would make voting a deductive process I think
Deductive%20vs.%20Inductive%20Reasoning.jpg


Based on what you said then perhaps a maths test is needed prior to voting ... Get below a c at maths in GCSE and you loose the right to vote... Get b and you can vote till 60 and an a to vote till 70... It's just a stupid idea to draw an arbitrary age when you are determined not to be mentally capable of making a decision

Just look how many FTSE 100 companies have md's in their 60's... Clearly experience has some value

I mean telling Stephen hawking he couldn't have voted in the last election because he might not have been able to understand the numbers in a political manifesto due to his age is just stupid...
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It's sad how many people think they're not going to learn anything as they get older. I'm not sure how they can get their head round having such a bleak view of their future.
 
The thing is every time this comes up our senior caf posters take offense because they still hold their opinions to be of value and that's fair enough plenty of you are more knowledgeable. Do you honestly think you're representative though? And lets not forget this discussion is only framed in the context of 16/17 year olds not being allowed to vote.

Let them vote and most of the arguments go away.
 
Smores said:
The thing is every time this comes up our senior caf posters take offense because they still hold their opinions to be of value and that's fair enough plenty of you are more knowledgeable. Do you honestly think you're representative though? And lets not forget this discussion is only framed in the context of 16/17 year olds not being allowed to vote.

Let them vote and most of the arguments go away.
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There certainly seems far more logic in lowering the voting age (16 seems logical as we allow people to join the army and get married ) than there is to draw an arbitrary maximum age that would imply A good chunk of MP's and lords are incapable of voting
 
Smores said:
The thing is every time this comes up our senior caf posters take offense because they still hold their opinions to be of value and that's fair enough plenty of you are more knowledgeable. Do you honestly think you're representative though? And lets not forget this discussion is only framed in the context of 16/17 year olds not being allowed to vote.

Let them vote and most of the arguments go away.
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You can't seriously suggest disenfranchising people based on an upper age limit, because it would be the end of democracy. In any case, plenty of young people voted for Brexit and plenty more didn't see the point in voting at all. However, it doesn't seem to matter if younger adults are as thick as a brick, because at least they aren't old.
 
Smores said:
The thing is every time this comes up our senior caf posters take offense because they still hold their opinions to be of value and that's fair enough plenty of you are more knowledgeable. Do you honestly think you're representative though? And lets not forget this discussion is only framed in the context of 16/17 year olds not being allowed to vote.

Let them vote and most of the arguments go away.
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I must have missed where in the thread this context was set but for the record I am very much in favour of 16/17 year olds having the vote.
 
sun_tzu said:
I think your confusing inductive and deductive reasoning... Manifestos... Interviews and your lifetimes experience of politics would make voting a deductive process I think
Deductive%20vs.%20Inductive%20Reasoning.jpg


Based on what you said then perhaps a maths test is needed prior to voting ... Get below a c at maths in GCSE and you loose the right to vote... Get b and you can vote till 60 and an a to vote till 70... It's just a stupid idea to draw an arbitrary age when you are determined not to be mentally capable of making a decision

Just look how many FTSE 100 companies have md's in their 60's... Clearly experience has some value

I mean telling Stephen hawking he couldn't have voted in the last election because he might not have been able to understand the numbers in a political manifesto due to his age is just stupid...
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I know what inductive reasoning is, the definition I gave was in line with the above. Anyway, my point is not a serious one. I don't advocate disenfranchising voters. But I don't believe older voters have any claim to a greater wisdom either, in fact I almost suspect the opposite when you look at the age of the supporters of the Brexit party and the low quality of their arguments.
 
I can't believe that the EU allowed the UK to drag it into this mess for so long.
 
nickm said:
I know what inductive reasoning is, the definition I gave was in line with the above. Anyway, my point is not a serious one. I don't advocate disenfranchising voters. But I don't believe older voters have any claim to a greater wisdom either, in fact I almost suspect the opposite when you look at the age of the supporters of the Brexit party and the low quality of their arguments.
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I do not believe many Brexit supporters have engaged any kind of rational reasoning to come to a decision. I think it is an emotional choice. This is not to say they are not capable of rational thought; just that they haven't used it in this case.

If nothing else, Brexit has revealed the dominance of emotion over calm, calculated reasoning. I think it is why the economic arguments fall on deaf ears.

The lesson is we have to figure out powerful enough ways to counter emotional arguments in important choices like refererendums, as it seems relatively easy to influence people's decisions via emotions.
 
When you are 16, you think you know about everything, but actually know nothing about anything.

As you get older, and have to work for a living and pay bills etc, you do find out about quite a few things, but look on in disbelief about what is going on around you and you can do nothing about it.
 
Sassy Colin said:
When you are 16, you think you know about everything, but actually know nothing about anything.

As you get older, and have to work for a living and pay bills etc, you do find out about quite a few things, but look on in disbelief about what is going on around you and you can do nothing about it.
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Or you look on at a world that is changing around you that you increasingly don’t understand and there’s nothing you can do, until populists come along promising to turn the clock back to simpler times.
 
devilish said:
I can't believe that the EU allowed the UK to drag it into this mess for so long.
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Given that it seems pretty likley we won't have a pm when the new parliament starts sitting and that when we do have a new pm it's likley to be johnson I think it's safe to say not only are negotiations over but any pretence of civility will go with it.
For sure though I don't see another extension for the EU to put up with farrage and negotiate with Johnson so at least it won't go on any longer.
 
nickm said:
I don't agree at all. Inductive reasoning is about drawing conclusions based on little evidence. Verbal memory is about remembering words and other abstractions. Numeric reasoning is about understanding basic maths, perceptual speed is about comparing stuff accurately. All these characteristics seem pretty important to making a good quality decision.
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Interesting line of argument but...

Where does that leave us on all the other important decision makers. Are we going to take the GP's licenses off them when they get into their fifties? How many consultants even make the top of their specialities in their mid thirties?

The real world evidence would suggest that in almost every other aspect of life we value experience very highly and the more important the repercussions of failure, the more we actively seek it out and are reassured by it. Do you think we are wrong to do so?
 
Totally agree with an upper age limit. Just like there will be exceptions to the rule with younger people who are advanced for their age and should be allowed to vote and can’t likewise with older generations there are a lot of people who can’t be trusted to make the right decisions as their brains aren’t quite with it.

I’d have as it as 16-70.
 
Raees said:
Totally agree with an upper age limit. Just like there will be exceptions to the rule with younger people who are advanced for their age and should be allowed to vote and can’t likewise with older generations there are a lot of people who can’t be trusted to make the right decisions as their brains aren’t quite with it.

I’d have as it as 16-70.
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Yeah I mean this can't go wrong at all.

The vote is needs to be lower to 16 but any other cut off point is beyond stupid.
 
Sweet Square said:
Yeah I mean this can't go wrong at all.

The vote is needs to be lower to 16 but any other cut off point is beyond stupid.
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Wrong how? You just set a final age limit just like you have a retirement age in regards to work.
 
People of all ages have to live within societies shaped by the politicians we choose, so I'm not in favour of age-restrictions.
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
Interesting line of argument but...

Where does that leave us on all the other important decision makers. Are we going to take the GP's licenses off them when they get into their fifties? How many consultants even make the top of their specialities in their mid thirties?

The real world evidence would suggest that in almost every other aspect of life we value experience very highly and the more important the repercussions of failure, the more we actively seek it out and are reassured by it. Do you think we are wrong to do so?
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Experience is over rated especially in novel situations. Look at silicon valley.
 
I don't think how capable or otherwise older people are is really the question, as let's be honest they're only under attack in the first place because more than 50% of that particular category didn't vote the way some wanted. It's the categorisation itself that's wrong, just as it would be for women, blacks, gays or whatever, it's simply wrong to pigeonhole sections of society into categories instead of recognising them as individuals, each due the same respect as any other.

I don't mean this in a Farage opportunistic way but there does seem to be a lowering of belief in democracy. For each person now that wants to change the rules on age to get the result they want there's another in the wings waiting to say why should people who pay no tax get to vote, why should people not born in the country get to vote, why should someone without degree-level education get to vote, or maybe someone without children, because what real stake have they got in the future anyway?

I don't know if it's because democracy has been around long enough for us to take it for granted or to forget why it matters, but there seems to be a real risk belief is waning. The problem with losing it is that when it's gone it could be a long time gone, and that would be a greater threat to us all in the long run than any one particular vote now and how we rig it.

To those who are dreaming of taking away someone else's vote today I say beware, tomorrow it could be your own right that's under challenge.
 
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Raees said:
Wrong how? You just set a final age limit just like you have a retirement age in regards to work.
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But that's because we've decide there is a limit to long how someone should have to sell their labour as a means of surviving. Them not being in work anymore shouldn't stop them from having the right to vote. Plus people in retirement are still going to be effect by political choices yet they would have no say in these choices(Pretty much my reasoning as to why prisoners should have the right to vote).

Also how we would decide if someone ''can't be trusted to make the right decisions as their brains aren’t quite with it.' ? Some form of test ? Who gets to decide and
administer this test ? Or is it just a straight cut of point at 70 ? Which seem like just punishing people for being old(Bernie Sanders for example is 77 and far more informed and knowledgeable then most of us)

There just a million way it can and will go wrong(Not to mentioned we would have created a great bureaucratic state program who's goal is to decide who does and doesn't get the vote)

Don't Kill Bill said:
No taxation without representation.
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I'm I right in thinking EU workers(Not including Ireland) can't vote in UK general elections ?

711 said:
I don't think how capable or otherwise older people are is really the question, as let's be honest they're only under attack in the first place because more than 50% of that particular category didn't vote the way some wanted. It's the categorisation itself that's wrong, just as it would be for women, blacks, gays or whatever, it's simply wrong to pigeonhole sections of society into categories instead of recognising them as individuals, each due the same respect as any other.

I don't mean this in a Farage opportunistic way but there does seem to be a lowering of belief in democracy. For each person now that wants to change the rules on age to get the result they want there's another in the wings waiting to say why should people who pay no tax get to vote, why should people not born in the country get to vote, why should someone without degree-level education get to vote, or maybe someone without children, because what real stake have they got in the future?

I don't know if it's because democracy has been around long enough for us to take it for granted or to forget why it matters, but there seems to be a real risk belief is waning. The problem with losing it is that when it's gone it could be a long time gone, and that would be a greater threat to us all in the long run than any one particular vote now and how we rig it.

To those who are dreaming of taking away someone else's vote today I say beware, tomorrow it could be your own right that's under challenge.
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Good post.
 
Sweet Square said:
But that's because we've decide there is a limit to long how someone should have to sell their labour as a means of surviving. Them not being in work anymore shouldn't stop them from having the right to vote. Plus people in retirement are still going to be effect by political choices yet they would have no say in these choices(Pretty much my reasoning as to why prisoners should have the right to vote).

Also how we would decide if someone ''can't be trusted to make the right decisions as their brains aren’t quite with it.' ? Some form of test ? Who gets to decide and
administer this test ? Or is it just a straight cut of point at 70 ? Which seem like just punishing people for being old(Bernie Sanders for example is 77 and far more informed and knowledgeable then most of us)

There just a million way it can and will go wrong(Not to mentioned we would have created a great bureaucratic state program who's goal is to decide who does and doesn't get the vote)


I'm I right in thinking EU workers(Not including Ireland) can't vote in UK general elections ?


Good post.
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Who is eligible to vote at a UK general election?
To vote at the UK general election you must be registered to vote and:

  • 18 years of age or over on polling day
  • be a British, Irish or qualifying Commonwealth citizen
  • be resident at an address in the UK (or a UK citizen living abroad who has been registered to vote in the UK in the last 15 years)
  • not be legally excluded from voting
The following cannot vote in a UK Parliament election:

  • members of the House of Lords
  • EU citizens (other than UK, Republic of Ireland, Cyprus and Malta) resident in the UK
  • anyone other than British, Irish and qualifying Commonwealth citizens
  • convicted persons detained in pursuance of their sentences, excluding contempt of court (though remand prisoners, unconvicted prisoners and civil prisoners can vote if they are on the electoral register)
  • anyone found guilty within the previous five years of corrupt or illegal practices in connection with an election
Who can register as an overseas voter?
If you are a UK citizen living abroad, you can apply to be an overseas voter.

You must have been registered to vote in the UK in the last 15 years and be eligible to vote in UK Parliamentary general elections and European Parliamentary elections.
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No they cannot but they have a vote at home and so a government to represent their interests.

The age limit on voting would leave those over that age paying tax with no one to represent theirs.
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
Who is eligible to vote at a UK general election?
To vote at the UK general election you must be registered to vote and:

  • 18 years of age or over on polling day
  • be a British, Irish or qualifying Commonwealth citizen
  • be resident at an address in the UK (or a UK citizen living abroad who has been registered to vote in the UK in the last 15 years)
  • not be legally excluded from voting
The following cannot vote in a UK Parliament election:

  • members of the House of Lords
  • EU citizens (other than UK, Republic of Ireland, Cyprus and Malta) resident in the UK
  • anyone other than British, Irish and qualifying Commonwealth citizens
  • convicted persons detained in pursuance of their sentences, excluding contempt of court (though remand prisoners, unconvicted prisoners and civil prisoners can vote if they are on the electoral register)
  • anyone found guilty within the previous five years of corrupt or illegal practices in connection with an election
Who can register as an overseas voter?
If you are a UK citizen living abroad, you can apply to be an overseas voter.

You must have been registered to vote in the UK in the last 15 years and be eligible to vote in UK Parliamentary general elections and European Parliamentary elections.
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No they cannot but they have a vote at home and so a government to represent their interests.

The age limit on voting would leave those over that age paying tax with no one to represent theirs.
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Cheers.
 
Paul the Wolf said:
People who were thick and xenophobic when they were 20 are still thick and xenophobic when they're 80.

People who were intelligent and not xenophobic when they were 20 are still the same when they're older

Barking up the wrong tree.
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You're right and the age argument is nonsensical - yes, older folk were more likely to vote Brexit, but the stats showed that people with a low level of education were also more likely to vote Brexit. This is the third time I've posted this on this thread, so apologies, but it's revealing.

vote1b.png
 
I think the age limit thing has weight if we are talking about once in a lifetime, generational votes, which Brexit was billed as. If a vote has the possibility of being once every 50 years, I don't think its wrong to think about excluding old people (80 year old plus). This is different to general elections where basically everyone will have to live with the consequences as the time period is significantly shorter (5 years).
 
Age has feck all to do with it. My mother in law is in her 70s and she’s an ardent remainer.

On the other side I’ve seen more ignorant posts and comments from young people who have been sucked in by the nationalism. It’s disheartening that they are incapable of seeing through lies.
 
Sigma said:
I think the age limit thing has weight if we are talking about once in a lifetime, generational votes, which Brexit was billed as. If a vote has the possibility of being once every 50 years, I don't think its wrong to think about excluding old people (80 year old plus). This is different to general elections where basically everyone will have to live with the consequences as the time period is significantly shorter (5 years).
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The older generation should always have a right to vote on issues that will affect their children and grandchildren. Them making the stupid decision doesn't change that. Maybe if remain had put as much effort into getting the older vote as leave did, we wouldn't be discussing this in the first place.
 
golden_blunder said:
Age has feck all to do with it. My mother in law is in her 70s and she’s an ardent remainer.

On the other side I’ve seen more ignorant posts and comments from young people who have been sucked in by the nationalism. It’s disheartening that they are incapable of seeing through lies.
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Polling and votes show the complete opposite.
 
golden_blunder said:
Age has feck all to do with it. My mother in law is in her 70s and she’s an ardent remainer.

On the other side I’ve seen more ignorant posts and comments from young people who have been sucked in by the nationalism. It’s disheartening that they are incapable of seeing through lies.
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That's an anecdotal example. As Sweet Square said the polls show support for Brexit increases amongst older generations.
 
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